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Hopefully I'm doing this right?

3 Shuriken Cannons vs. T6 Target (for example): 9 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds (50% chance of one of the wounds being a 'rend', right?)
3 Scatter Lasers vs. T6 Target: 12 shots, 8 hits 4 wounds (none of which is a 'rend')


In small numbers, they're pretty close together. Is one 'rend' going to make that much difference? Is forcing one more save going to make that much difference? /shrug


6 Shuriken Cannons vs. T6 Target: 18 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds (one of which is statistically likely to be a 'rend')
6 Scatter Lasers vs. T6 Target: 24 shots, 18 hits, 9 wounds (none of which is a 'rend')


In larger numbers, what is the value of 1 likely 'rend' compared to forcing 3 extra saves?

If the save is a 3+, then the extra wounds put on by the scatter lasers will result in 1 additional failed save (3 likely to be failed total).

If you want to rely on Bladestorm, shooting S4 Shuriken Catapults is 10 points cheaper and you're still fishing for sixes (and I think almost exactly as likely to get 2 hits per bike). Sure, you're way closer to the target so....

the issue with "bladestorm" (the rend you refer to) is simply that there is a chance on AP2.. there are two parts to this: firstly it disproportionately affects high armour units (EG: big bonus vs terminators compared to imperial guardsmen) but, secondly it is unable to overcome invulnerable saves (storm shields) and common all garden cover save, so it can be situationally "a bit wet" if the terminators are simply going to get a storm shield invul or the marine is in a bunker

the third part to an answer is that re: the vanilla shuriken catapults, yes in the purest sense they also can rend with near identical probability, but their range is vastly lower, and at str 4, should they fail to "rend" (bladestorm), they are much less likely to do anything, and lastly they are unable to wound T8 or damage AV12 at all.


the fourth element is range, since scatter lasers do have the edge with range

the fifth element is the real life game situation: the one we all know, the "at all costs bring it down" moment in this case shuriken catapults have better results in a "forceful pouring of dice" because they are slightly more flexible in their range of effectiveness and they can add substantial weight in a high stakes moment

I'm magnetizing mine, so I'll see what I *need* in my new lists (which, funny enough, are going to look pretty much like my old, 4th ed codex + 6th ed rules lists).

First of all, I think it is important to note the ideal size of Jetbike squads. You could do min3 or 4, but lose 1 bike and you test to run away. At 5 models, you can lose 1 model and not reach 25% casualties. That threshold is not reached again until 9 models (where 2 casualties wont cause a test).

Therefore, I believe 5-6 models is the ideal size for Jetbike squads. Any bigger makes Jinking hurt more models and the points invested don't match the units you at shooting at. For this same reason, I don't think filling the WHOLE unit with heavy weapons is a good idea either, It is worth having 1-2 models in the squad that stay to the front as first casualties. Having all your bikes with upgrades means you lose more fire power as models die.

My ideal units will be 5 bikes with 3 Scatters-->115 pts. I plan on running 2 of these units. They will stay backfield or work up each flank to get side AV shots. I will also have 1 unit of 4 (just that's how many I have left) with no upgrade weapon in Reserve as an objective grabber.

Since Scatter lasers lost Laser-lock, I no longer need them on my War-Walkers, so I will use them the tote my Shuricannons.



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My tactic will probably be 4 jet bikes with scatter lasers in a unit of 4 for 108 pts.. I will probably run two units and a third at 51 pts just 3 vanilla bikers.. the 2 scatbiker units will probably run interference with 6 vypers each with 2 shuriken cats and on that basis I expect to see very little return fire even possible... 36 canon shots and 32 scatter laser shots.. for (i think) 568 pts


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..... and before you cry cheese ... i've been vehomently advocating and running vypers like this in every list in 6th (and been continually slated for it on dakka) my vypers just ran amongst wave serps.. so all I am really doing is swapping serps for scatbikers.. the reason I know it will work is the vypers always survived in the old meta due to overwhelming fire alone

I think you're just about as likely to lose 2 as you are to lose 1 when the unit gets shot at. I plan to keep mine smaller--MSU style. If I get lucky and my opponent has to shoot more than one unit at my 3 jetbikes, that'd be excellent.

SInce the scatterlaser has range on the shuricannon, the bike will be farther away and less likely to take casualties, so having enough to take 1 without testing makes a difference

I would rather have 5 bikes w/ 3 scatters, then 4 bike w/ all scatters. It is a 7pt difference that give keep my bikes around longer and each casualty doesn't hurt as bad.

Plus if the bikes get charged (and yes, even bikes can get charged, I have done it MANY times with my daemons) the overwatch is effectively the same, since I have a few TL cats with bladestorm.
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Overall, I think Scatters will be better Horde-control and anti-light armour, but Shuricannons are much better vs MC's & MEQs

The best tactical advise would be to have some Scatter units AND some Shuricannon units