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 Brothererekose wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:
Honestly for 295 points to deep strike one squad of wraithguard without scatter then 2 raiders to put other Eldar goodies into your list that sounds super easy and cheap to me brotherkose.

(sarcastic, silly response):
**drools**
"Now that's just ... hold on a second."

I can field that. Haem, raiders fulla Kabalites and/or Trublasters in a Venom. Darn it, ChanceT, now I wanna try it!

- - - - - - - - -
Thanks, ChanceTragedy. You do make a good point and I do miss playing DE.

Okay, so:

1. Warlord Trait that Infiltrates 3 units (not easy to get, just a 33% chance, rerolling on the Strategic table)
2. DE help with WWP
Infiltrating Ind.Character help is out ... #3?

What about Thaylens suggestion of the Waveserpents and the host formation? Could you field that also as the third or is it points/List prohibitive?

 Thaylen wrote:
Wave Serpents add about 6" to their movement speed. If used as part ofthe wriathhost formation you can add another d6" to their range.

I discounted transport WG, Thaylen. It is ~9 inches (with the formation bonus) of Serpent movement, 6" disembark ... 12" gun. 27 inches is under standard SM movement and range for bolters, and many other trooper guns. Max move gets the same as SM. Without the formation less. Sorry that I don't include this one with the other two.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Thaylen wrote:
Wave Serpents add about 6" to their movement speed. If used as part ofthe wriathhost formation you can add another d6" to their range.

I discounted transport WG, Thaylen. It is ~9 inches (with the formation bonus) of Serpent movement, 6" disembark ... 12" gun. 27 inches is under standard SM movement and range for bolters, and many other trooper guns. Max move gets the same as SM. Without the formation less. Sorry that I don't include this one with the other two.

Speed is a big issue in competitive formats so I see where you're coming from. But wouldn't the WS be a better (by which I mean more survivable and better armed) delivery system for the WG than the Webway Portal? It's been a long time since I played Eldar so I might be off base with that thought process but it seems to me that WS are still good, not insane like 6th ed, so using them plus a great unit like WG is a decent option.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
What about Thaylens suggestion of the Waveserpents and the host formation? Could you field that also as the third or is it points/List prohibitive?

For the formation, I am short one unit of WG. I have the WK, WL and 10 WG.
...




But I'll be buying another box of WG next week.

@bro erekose (i'm on my phone and Multi-quoting is a pain.)

Daemon summoning farm lists are pretty broken-awesome, but they have a severe weakness in tournaments: Time limits. The lists typically win by crowding you off the board with superior forces late in the game, and with a giant psychic phase, plus a novel's worth of bookkeeping for powers, as well as placing 40 to 50 more models on the table each turn, you run out of time super fast. Our six round test games tended to run about 4 to 6 hours. I could probably practice to get that down to roughly 3 1/2 before I'm winning the game by tabling, but that's nowhere near the typical 2 1/2 to 3 hour time limit at most tournies.

Also after a good deal of play testing with them, we determined that the lists have a very high skill ceiling. Not one generally met by most 40k players. Having a very intimate relationship with the daemon units and understanding their slight differences is key in the list. It is very far from an auto-pilot list if played correctly. (You COULD just spam daemonettes without a care, but that playstyle is a bit weaker than "always summon the best thing for every situation.")

Riptides (and the tau 6e book) were hightier good until 6e eldar followed it just a couple months after. They are still very very good, but generally are a second detachment alongside something else in tourneys. (Like say...a bunch of serpents with a firebase cadre formation.) just going off memory of the current ITC tournament results for this season, I want to say that the armies with Tau secondary are vastly outperforming armies with tau primary.

It's hard to say whether or not knights have had an impact, because, like tau, they are almost always secondary forces.

Another thing to remember is that any army can lose. The game still involves several hundred dice rolls. It doesn't matter if you're using str D flamers on a trukk full of orks. If you just roll all ones (and twos in that situation,) your guys are going to die.

No one is claiming that the new eldar are unbeatable, just that they push the eldar starting advantage way above the norm.

Some people also mistakenly believe that that means we will see results that say that place 1-10 out of 80 are all eldar.

Swiss style tournaments don't work like that. For one, you (a hypothetical eldar player) may get incredibly unlucky and barely lose a round. Also, several of the Eldar players will be playing each other. This means that after round one, a simple guy who came in with orks who beat his round one non-Eldar opponent, is now ranked above several Eldar armies. If he manages to keep winning against non-Eldar opponents, he never has to face any of the Eldar lists he outranks.

I pulled off something similar recently, where my blood angels came in third, but I outranked a Drago star that would've broken me in half by several ranks.
So bear that in mind. Just because a list makes first place, does not mean that a third of the lists at the tournament would not have destroyed it in one-on-one face downs.

Any large tourney magic player knows that matchups can work miracles for you if you're running a dark horse deck, or they can wreck you, by constantly putting you in 80-20 matchups or 20-80 matchups, respectively.

niv-mizzet wrote:
@bro erekose (i'm on my phone and Multi-quoting is a pain.)

And keeping up with a hot, fast paced, rapid post, thread. Perfectly understandable.

niv-mizzet wrote:
No one is claiming that the new eldar are unbeatable, just that they push the eldar starting advantage way above the norm.

The word 'unbeatable' hasn't been used that I saw, but nearly ever other 'Sky is Falling' brokenbroken, RABBLERABBLERAGEQuit phrase has.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Some people also mistakenly believe that that means we will see results that say that place 1-10 out of 80 are all eldar.

Swiss style tournaments don't work like that. For one, you... that matchups can work miracles for you if you're running a dark horse deck, or they can wreck you, by constantly putting you in 80-20 matchups or 20-80 matchups, respectively.

I gotta chew on this. I tip my hat to you as you have a far better notion of grander tourney mechanics than I do.

On going discussion is welcome!

Maybe people shouldn't lose their minds so quickly as really I think it's LONG RANGE D-Cannons that really cause problems . Who knows though.

I'll point out I've not see a major tournament win with a ST D weapon in a list that I can remember.

Lnyx were popular at LVO and one army made it to the final day.

The D flamer Wraiths loaded into a raider with a WWP Archon or Haem is a very easy way to get them into range. There are other ways to but require more of an investment.

Hollismason wrote:
I'll point out I've not see a major tournament win with a ST D weapon in a list that I can remember.

This isn't really a convincing argument given how many tournaments ban ranged D-weapons and/or the LoW that carry them.

Even after elder book gets its tournament faqs it will still be the best codex and army to beat.

Tournament rule 1) No lord of war super heavies or gargantuan... No change wraith knight banned.

Tournament rule 2) no range str d. In the case of Eldar and any future army books with range str d revert all str d range to str 10 ap2 and the old elder distort rules. No book keeping no confusing rules. All range str d is the same.
There is not a single elder player who ever complained the old distort weapons were to weak. Wraith guard were already a popular unit before and will continue to be popular even with the old rules staying in effect.

Tournament rule 3) bikes I recommend not changing however some tournaments might resctrict them back to the old rule of upgrading 1 of 3 with heavy weapon.

Even with these changes reverting back elder will still be by far the best codex.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Lnyx were popular at LVO and one army made it to the final day.

The D flamer Wraiths loaded into a raider with a WWP Archon or Haem is a very easy way to get them into range. There are other ways to but require more of an investment.

Do you mean into a Wave Serpent? You can't fit the minimum 5 Wraithguard (bulky) and a WWP Holder into a Raider.

Okay a Wave Serpent.

In another thread, 40k Gen Discussion, the CraftWorld Warhost organization came up. Given it is like decurion stuff, my guess is that TOs will likely put some hobbles on this.

If I'm reading it right, 12 WKs can be taken. 'course that is instantly hobbled by most tourneys allowing only one LordofWar (and it'd be over 3000 in points, before you event start with with compulsory HQs and such). Which makes me wonder why this section is here at all (pages 94 & 95). It's pretty much Apoc with flimsy yellow tape wrapped around it, pretending to give a semblance of 'order'.

Anyone else looking over the CraftWorld Warhost stuff and going, huh?

-
TL - DR
This CraftWorld Warhost stuff will likely be the first thing *I* would ban or inhibit if I were a TO.

Dislike. Dislike. Dislike.


What if Flash Gitz got the Ranged D?
Or Warbikerz got Obsec with 4shots of Str 6?
Or Dorkanauts got some D-Love?

What if wishes were fishes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We get the 18pt Bubble Chucka


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks G-dub.

Wow this post got longer than I thought it would but there is a lot to discuss with this topic. If this post is TLDR, tournaments are likely going to limit Wraithknights to 1 or 0 and modify what Destroyer weapons do, which I think is completely appropriate, otherwise the dex is fine. However...

Since the last Eldar codex dropped two years ago, there have been a lot of allegations of Eldar being "OP." In my experience, however, there has not been much support for those allegations. Are Eldar strong? Yes, definitely strong but I very much doubt they are "OP." What does "OP" mean in a gaming context anyway? To me, saying something is "OP" in 40k seems like this nebulous concept that exists in people's minds of something that seems unfairly strong...Something that can and will beat them irrespective of skill. Eldar are not that and on a personal note, I've found that when people lose games, they tend to blame dice, how OP the person's army was or maybe even the other player-I know that I've sometimes done this myself and that never got me anywhere. The times I've really grown as a player were when I got past my "nerd rage" and looked at games that I've lost and thought of ways I could have played better.

Anyway, simply saying "because Serpents" or "because Wraith Knights" or "because they do well at tournaments and so many people play them" or any amount of math/theory hammer is not enough to warrant Eldar being "OP." Saying "well, I lost because the guy took lotsa Serpents and had Wraith Knights and we all know how OP Eldar are!" is a cop-out but I've heard people say those kinds of things!

Overall, yes, Wave Serpents/Wraith knights/Seer Counsels were very durable and had a strong offensive potential. Therefore, when spammed or used in combination with each other, they posed a problem for many armies. However, there were many armies that dealt just fine with Serpent Spam armies that even had up to 4 Wraith Knights and perhaps even a Seer Counsel (though those combinations were rare). Looking at the tournament scene in the past two years, while there were a lot of Eldar players, there still appeared to be a decent diversity of armies and play styles-in the top tables anyway. Indeed, I even think Eldar were a minority at the top tables at the last few GTs I attended (BAO/Brawl in the Fall in 2014). White Scars/Centurion Star, Flyrant spam, Necrons, FMCs in general, Demons, Tau and even other Eldar all could go toe to toe with pretty much any Eldar build. Indeed, I found that player skill went a lot farther than the army lists involved.

All this to say that there appears to be a VERY big disconnect between what people say on the internet, including here on Dakka, and what we see in reality. It really astounds me how much vitriol and general doom and gloom this recent Eldar release has garnered. Yes, the new Eldar appear to have some very strong options but to declare the game is broken is either hyperbole, at best, or an overreaction steeped in ignorance, at the worst and neither adds anything to the discussion.

Moving on to the current and new Eldar, the biggest offenders appear to be Guardian Jetbikes able to all get heavy weapons; Wraith Knights being Gargantuan Creatures at 295 points; and, D-Weapons galore.

All I can say is that in my real world experience, with many games played:

(1) Jetbikes with all Heavy Weapons are not going to break the game or be THAT strong. I'd go so far as to say you probably won't even see max bikes with Scatter Lasers/Shiruken Cannons very often. First of all, I know what that kind of firepower can or cannot do having played with max Vypers/War Walkers for fun and it only goes so far. As has been pointed out but ignored are statements that illustrate the fragility of bikes. Pretty much most all of my armies have had some Wind Rider presence and Bikes are not hard to kill by any stretch of the imagination. For one, large bike units have a large footprint and so they are pretty much impossible to hide completely from incoming fire. Furthermore, getting into position to get all of those shots against specific targets is easier said than done and Jetbikes in any amount can be caught and tarpited in combat. Then there is the problem of their Ld 8 which makes them vulnerable to Ld tests and Psychic Scream. Ultimately, saying "but they are so mobile and put out so many shots" is merely theory hammer and meaningless in a real world context of actual games.

(2) Wraithknights being gargantuan creatures and costing only 295 points are not going to break the game, either. I think the main problem people have with Wraith Knights is how durable they can be and the D weapons (but see below on D weapons). Personally, I don't think Wraith Knights would be worth it at any price point beyond 350 points and many, if not all, of the existing Gargantuan creatures are probably over priced for what they do. One Wraith Knight is not going to be a big deal and without any limitations, the only way to get multiple Wraith Knights is either in the Craft World formations or taking multiple detachments-all of which have their own limitations/taxes that ensure you can't have THAT many. In average points limits, at most, you could reasonably spam 3-4 Wraith Knights and such armies won't do well in a competitive context against good players for the same reason that armies of 5 Knights are not dominating the Meta. Anyway, from Grav Weapons to Psychic Shrieks to Rending and generally a lot of incoming fire, Gargantuan Creatures are not THAT hard to take down. I know-I've played with and against them in various circumstances. So with that in mind, with ITC rulings in place, limiting Wraith Knights to 1 per army and adjusting what Destroyer Weapons do will go a long way to preventing Wraith Knights from having any hope of dominating the meta. Overall, I maintain that no matter how many Wraithknights/ranged D weapons would be permitted, a good player would be able to deal with it and still win the game.

(3) D Weapons readily available on Wraithguard models and various other platforms won't break the game either but this where I can most readily sympathize with people as D weapons in 40k don't sit well with me in general. After all, nobody likes having their models removed from the table for no other reason than a "6" was rolled. Heck, even in Monopoly, when you get a "do not pass go, go directly to jail" card, you can still have a chance to get out of Jail, but not with D Weapons! So as it stands, with how D weapons work, are they that bad in the Eldar army? Personally, I don't think so.

First of all, there are several limitations on how D weapons work in the Eldar codex that are not necessarily present on some of the other big offenders (like Revenants, Lynx and so forth). For starters, nothing in the Eldar codex that has D weapons is as durable as a Lynx or some of the other platforms that D Weapons were available on. Second of all, the amount of hits that can be scored-over the course of an average game-and consequently the number of "6" results are not as much as would be had by some of the other platforms for D weapons. This second point is true because typical platforms with ranged D weapons can fling out rather large blasts/templates able to cover whole units and in some cases fling out multiple large blasts/templates at a decent range. Eldar units, on the other hand, are limited to either only affecting a single model per shot (like Wraith Cannons/Heavy Wraith Cannons) or are limited to pretty much engaging a single target once per game due to a limited mobility/range.

Indeed, in no particular order:

-Wraith Knight can have 2 36" Destroyer shots. Over the course of an average game, that's 10-12 shots if it survives until turn 5/6 and it can be tarpited in combat or killed much easier than typical D slinging platforms limiting the incoming number of Destroyer shots. You still have to roll to-hit and then on the Destroyer table-there are still a lot of chances along the way for the Wraith Knight's shooting to be ineffective but there are now more of a chance for it to be more devastating. Overall, stronger but I don't think by THAT much and if Destroyer Weapons have their rules toned down in ITC I don't think we'll have much complaints.

-Wraith Fighter has 2 18" Destroyer blasts that suffer a -1 on the Destroyer chart so you never have to worry about that "6" result. True, it has mobility to get anywhere it wants but its still a Wraith Fighter, meaning nobody in their right mind will take one (it costs too much for what it does and is so easy to kill).

-Vaul's Wrath batteries have 24" Destroyer blasts which are pretty strong but they are still only 24", not very mobile (can't move and shoot) and are on Eldar Artillery... Seriously, if you have stuff die to Vaul's Wrath Batteries either you deserve it or something went terribly wrong somewhere along the game.

-Wraith Guard with Wraith Cannons can each fire a single Destroyer shot at 12". The single most limiting factor here is the fact that you still have to hit and you have a very short range so getting into position will be a challenge. Really, either you have to rely on Serpents to get there and risk getting shot down on the way or you have to rely on Dark Eldar Allies with a WWP to get 5+Wave Serpent (prob best option) or 6+ with no Wave Serpent into position. Overall, yes, you will get into position and probably kill dead what you shoot at. However, barring bad dice, 5-10 Wraith Guard typically killed whatever they shot at anyway. Now, you have the chance of that dreaded "6" appearing but that result on the old Distort weapons typically meant whatever you hit was dead anyway. Now once the Wraith Guard drop into position (and will likely have 6" to disembark plus 6" to run then shoot with formation rules) they are stranded with their short range weapons. They will likely die or not contribute too much to the game unless the opponent deployed bad.

-Wraith Guard with D-Scythes each fire a template of DoOm. Yes, Wraith Guard with D-Scythes will absolutely erase whatever they target with an almost absolute certainty (something the above options can't boast as well as these guys) and this is where the biggest problem lies in the Eldar codex. Going from S4 and only Pen/Instant Death on a 6 to always auto wound/pen with d3 wounds/HP is absolutely brutal. Also, as with the regular Wraith Guard discussed above, getting them into position won't be terribly hard. However, once deployed, they are pretty much done for the game and will likely be wiped out with retaliatory shooting/combat.

Overall, keeping vulnerable targets in reserves, bubble wrapping vulnerable targets, having strong interceptor shooting or even invulnerable saves will go a long way to mitigate or eliminate the threat of Eldar D weapons (good invul saves more so against D-Scythes). Heck, even spreading out as much as possible goes a long way to deal with D-Scythes. There is also that added level of "random" because Wraith units coming in via WWP might come in on a turn where there are no good targets or too late in the game when their desired target is either in combat or has already done its damage. Special mention should be made to Gate of Infinity which would potentially allow for Eldar units to get into position and wreck stuff multiple times over the course of a game but it is not a sure shot by any means.

Conclusion:
Ultimately, in the Eldar rumor thread, several people have accused me of wantonly casting aside their arguments for "Eldar are OP, no skill required, end of world-math hammer FTW says so" and in turn only hearing "L2P" from me. Well, if Eldar are giving you a hard time, learn to play against them-they are definitely not unbeatable and definitiely won't break the game. Part of the game is building a list that can handle the strongest things other players can throw at you so if you find your list unable to compete, maybe the problem is with your list or skill level rather than Eldar being OP. If players find that what the Eldar can bring to the table are too strong, then house rule things to be toned down. I imagine that many tournaments will consider implementing limitations on how many Wraith Knights can be taken (likely 0 or 1) as well as how ranged D weapons will function in an Eldar army.

Personally, I propose changing all D weapons to doing nothing on a 1 while on a 2-6 doing a single auto-pen/auto-wound.

 Dozer Blades wrote:


The D flamer Wraiths loaded into a raider with a WWP Archon or Haem is a very easy way to get them into range. There are other ways to but require more of an investment.

Is it possible that wraithguard might not be as good as everyone thinks?

#1. They cost a lot of points. Add to this their delivery system and that is a chunk of you army.
#2. They land and kill one unit. Do you know what else kills one unit? Anything else that you spend those points on.
#3. They are slow and have short range. Yes you can mitigate some of that with transports and WWP and then what? So you come out and kill a unit big deal. Then everything else will try to kill them, and if they can't do that, they will just walk away from them and you have an expensive unit that cant kill anything else.
#4. There is a model named Coteaz. That is the thing about a meta is that if one build becomes good, there are ways of countering it. If wraithguard ever become as powerful as some here think, then all of the imperials will start to counter it with Coteaz, and then all of a sudden your killer army build will become useless.

Every new codex and rules edition get theoryhammered to death, and most of the time they are wrong,

Last year when the new Tyranid codex came out everyone was saying how bad they were. So I took them to the LVO and beat 2 Eldar players and ended up winning my first 4 games before losing my last game to the eventual overall winner.

Do you know what theoryhammer players where complaining about and wanted banned with 7th edition? Invisibility and demon summoning. Are they game breaking builds that are dominating tournaments? No, Are they good? Yes, but they are not as good as everyone thought.

So we need to wait and see if things are as bad as people think before raging against something that has not proven to be a problem,

Invisibility has been nerfed by ITC which is one thing that could afford great protection against D - is that fair? Ranged D is banned by ITC so something must be done. Fix D, limit WK to 0-1 and I think everyone will be happy. Testimonials by well known eldar players supporting the new codex is laughable - sorry but it's true.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Invisibility has been nerfed by ITC which is one thing that could afford great protection against D - is that fair? Ranged D is banned by ITC so something must be done. Fix D, limit WK to 0-1 and I think everyone will be happy. Testimonials by well known eldar players supporting the new codex is laughable - sorry but it's true.

@DB,

But the thing is, mortetvie and Blackmooor are right on pretty much every point they made. *I* do know both these guys irl, and regardless of their personalities, or eldar records, they better stated the points I have been trying to make.

Since it got brought up, ITC's D-range ban is okay with me, too. And a similar fix on the Wraith's D-weps sounds reasonable to me too. Like my voice weighs in so much.

What nobody seems to be talking about is the Eldar are but the first codex in this fashion. It is rumored another IK codex is already coming with more IK variants. D wpns are in the game and aren't going away. The banning is going to be a slippery slope. Ban one thing and something else rises up to be the new broken. If folks are OK with that, then have at it. Personally, I am not a fan of telling folks they can't use the stuff they bought, painted and are perfectly legal within the rules.

 Sarigar wrote:
What nobody seems to be talking about is the Eldar are but the first codex in this fashion. It is rumored another IK codex is already coming with more IK variants. D wpns are in the game and aren't going away. The banning is going to be a slippery slope. Ban one thing and something else rises up to be the new broken. If folks are OK with that, then have at it. Personally, I am not a fan of telling folks they can't use the stuff they bought, painted and are perfectly legal within the rules.

Even the 0-1 superheavies or gargantuan creatures is going to be just a temporary fix. More and more gargantuan creatures, superheavies, and d-weapons will enter the game as months and years go by. It's not going to change, other than that the speed might even accelerate.

Bans and 0-1 restrictions aren't as good as trying to find a fix to the general rule. What's the problem with gargantuan creatures? Is it the feel no pain? Is it the immunity to poison? Is it the stomps? Whatever it is, that generic rule can be adjusted. What's the problem with superheavy vehicles? That can be adjusted. Likewise, what's the problem with D weapons? That rule can be adjusted. I would have also assumed by now that the Flying Monstrous Creature rule would have been adjusted too since it's blatantly overpowered, but I guess the community leaders disagree.

Adjust those core rules and then people can bring 3 Wraithknights or 30 D-Scythe Wraithguard. We still won't have perfect balance, but we'll have a better balance everyone can get along with grudgingly like they always have.

Of course, a lot of tournaments were already doing this, and I expect that these sane people continue the trend and not ban anything from the Eldar codex, and just further keep an eye on whether superheavy, gargantuan, or strength destroyer core rules need to be adjusted.

 Sarigar wrote:
What nobody seems to be talking about is the Eldar are but the first codex in this fashion. It is rumored another IK codex is already coming with more IK variants. D wpns are in the game and aren't going away. The banning is going to be a slippery slope. Ban one thing and something else rises up to be the new broken. If folks are OK with that, then have at it. Personally, I am not a fan of telling folks they can't use the stuff they bought, painted and are perfectly legal within the rules.

I am perfectly fine telling people what units they can and can't bring. We're not playing in a vacuum. There's another person at the table and their ability to play and enjoy the game must also be considered.

TOs will have to make a determination about what they are more worried about. One guy buying 6 wraith knights and not coming because he can't field them all, or the 5 people who decide not to come because they have no interest in playing against those wraith knights.

bogalubov wrote:
[

I am perfectly fine telling people what units they can and can't bring. We're not playing in a vacuum. There's another person at the table and their ability to play and enjoy the game must also be considered.

So you are ok with others telling you what units you can and can't play? I think Centurions, flying monstrous creatures, Imperial Knights should be banned because they take away my enjoyment of the game.

Blackmoor, you need to forge the narrative harder!

bogalubov wrote:
I am perfectly fine telling people what units they can and can't bring. We're not playing in a vacuum. There's another person at the table and their ability to play and enjoy the game must also be considered.

TOs will have to make a determination about what they are more worried about. One guy buying 6 wraith knights and not coming because he can't field them all, or the 5 people who decide not to come because they have no interest in playing against those wraith knights.

Yeah, but what happens when you have to tell a long standing Iyanden player "sorry you can't play the army you've had since second."?

 Blackmoor wrote:

bogalubov wrote:
[

I am perfectly fine telling people what units they can and can't bring. We're not playing in a vacuum. There's another person at the table and their ability to play and enjoy the game must also be considered.

So you are ok with others telling you what units you can and can't play? I think Centurions, flying monstrous creatures, Imperial Knights should be banned because they take away my enjoyment of the game.

Concur. I'll be the first to concede some points. I'll not bring any D Weapons if Centstars, Superfriends, Ad Lance and 4+ Flying Hive Tyrants are also removed from the game.

 Sarigar wrote:
What nobody seems to be talking about is the Eldar are but the first codex in this fashion. It is rumored another IK codex is already coming with more IK variants. D wpns are in the game and aren't going away. The banning is going to be a slippery slope. Ban one thing and something else rises up to be the new broken. If folks are OK with that, then have at it. Personally, I am not a fan of telling folks they can't use the stuff they bought, painted and are perfectly legal within the rules.

Ban them. Ban them ALL. Anyone argues? Ban them too.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Thaylen wrote:
Wave Serpents add about 6" to their movement speed. If used as part ofthe wriathhost formation you can add another d6" to their range.

I discounted transport WG, Thaylen. It is ~9 inches (with the formation bonus) of Serpent movement, 6" disembark ... 12" gun. 27 inches is under standard SM movement and range for bolters, and many other trooper guns. Max move gets the same as SM. Without the formation less. Sorry that I don't include this one with the other two.

Are you forgetting the possible 6-9" run? Or do they not have battle focus?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sarigar wrote:
What nobody seems to be talking about is the Eldar are but the first codex in this fashion. It is rumored another IK codex is already coming with more IK variants. D wpns are in the game and aren't going away. The banning is going to be a slippery slope. Ban one thing and something else rises up to be the new broken. If folks are OK with that, then have at it. Personally, I am not a fan of telling folks they can't use the stuff they bought, painted and are perfectly legal within the rules.

Except IK are way more expensive. And now they might get one-shotted by a <50 point gun or swarmed by D-Scythes. No one in their right mind would bring one to a meta where Eldar armies have 10+ D-weapons ready to shoot them to pieces.

Listen - in my opinion is goes way beyond Eldar. The 5-6 Hive Tyrant List, Deathstars (with 2+, 2+ (or 4+) ), serpant spam, the new eldar codex - this has been a culmination of many things. Not to be nostalgic, but I remember tournaments being less janky and power hungrey than this. I remember tournaments when you look across the table and say - it will be hard but I think I got this. Now a days you look across the table and it no longer is "I think I got this," its "how many points can I score until I get wiped off the table." That is not what a tournament should be. Armies should be balanced - they should have some great units but still be able to account for some sort of strategic placement or fireing. There should be some semblance of hope. Now a days the hope is pretty much gone for me and others.

I have played marines for a very loing time - switched to other armies but always kept my marines around. I have bikes, assault marines, pretty much a thematic "white scars" army before white scars were a thing. Now did I put grav guns on my bikes, sure - but I always used a little of everything I had. Assault marines, for example, I can no longer use in my lists, because of the current state of the game. When I cannot use 30 of my beautiful custom models that I payed and loved for because I know in my heart that there is no way for them to win - that is a loss in my book. There should not be a time when you essentially feel like you should not take the unit because you know that it will lose to pretty much any combination of armies - or even worse - a net list army.

I think what people are reacting too is not that the Eldar codex is OP, but rather its a further push by GW to slightly unbalance certain aspects of the game. You have a cool landraider that you love to play - well now its even WORSE due to the amount of stregnth D. You play drop pod marines, well here comes the scatter lasers. Now I am not blaming just Eldar, for example you have an army that uses tanks to get quickly cause you love the fluff - well here are 6 flyrants enjoy.

At the end of the day a game should not activly feel hopeless to win. There should be some balance between units you have and units you want to get or new units.

I personally feel that everytime a new codex comes out I have to buy this new thing that they came out with effectivly rendering me as a cash cow.

But I have moved on - I rarelyplay 40k and moved on to other systems that feel fairer to me as a consumer and a gamer (spartan games looking at you FSA ). I still like 40k dont get me wrong, but at the end of the day I have just become disheartneded over the years.

Core Choice unlocks Wraith Host. Wraith gain Battle Focus and Craftworld Battlehost Detachment (or whatever clunky name it has) grants automatic 6" run. So that's a 19" threat range for Scytheguard (7" template?), and a 24" threat range for Wraithguard. This isn't an ultimate doom machine, but it is easy to get (and can come in at 1847 with a couple of upgrades here and there). Includes Wraithknight with Battlefocus that can run 6" and still shoot, for funzies.

Mavnas wrote:

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Thaylen wrote:
Wave Serpents add about 6" to their movement speed. If used as part ofthe wriathhost formation you can add another d6" to their range.

I discounted transport WG, Thaylen. It is ~9 inches (with the formation bonus) of Serpent movement, 6" disembark ... 12" gun. 27 inches is under standard SM movement and range for bolters, and many other trooper guns. Max move gets the same as SM. Without the formation less. Sorry that I don't include this one with the other two.

Are you forgetting the possible 6-9" run? Or do they not have battle focus?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sarigar wrote:
What nobody seems to be talking about is the Eldar are but the first codex in this fashion. It is rumored another IK codex is already coming with more IK variants. D wpns are in the game and aren't going away. The banning is going to be a slippery slope. Ban one thing and something else rises up to be the new broken. If folks are OK with that, then have at it. Personally, I am not a fan of telling folks they can't use the stuff they bought, painted and are perfectly legal within the rules.

Except IK are way more expensive. And now they might get one-shotted by a <50 point gun or swarmed by D-Scythes. No one in their right mind would bring one to a meta where Eldar armies have 10+ D-weapons ready to shoot them to pieces.

Exactly. If folks aren't bringing masses IK or uber deathstars, D weapons are pretty much overkill and not a good choice to make.