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**Vaktathi**

Hrm, to be fair, in many cases, there often isn't much one can do about Wraiths.

They're absurdly under-priced for their resiliency and speed. At 60ppm, nobody would think they're overcosted, and with 4+RP in a Decurion (hooray formations costing zero points!) they very much often are an "inevitable thing you can do nothing against".

Given their speed, if a Necron player gets first turn, you probably only have one turn to try and down them before they get stuck into something, even if you're ass-to-board-edge. With multiple wounds, T5, a 3++ save, you're talking an average of 72 Lasgun shots to kill a single Wraith, and a full unit of 6 with 4+ RP is going to require an average of 864 BS3 Lasgun shots or ~50 BS4 S10 shots (after reduced 5+ RP and inflicting Instant Death)

**ClassicCarraway**

Alcibiades wrote:
Quick math tells me that Khorne Berzerkers that have been buffed by Blood Tithe will hurt Wraiths reasonably badly on the cherge.

Fun fact: with chain axes, they're also I think the only low-level-ish infantry unit that will beat Flayed Ones (?)

As far as Berzerkers against Decurian Wraiths with RP, equal points (10 KBs vs 5 Wraiths), that's not such a good match up for the Berzerkers. Against Wraiths of any variety, the Berzerkers have to really tally up the casaulties in that first round of combat, and a 4+ RP effectively drops that down to about 1 dead Wraith in the first round, which simply won't get it done in the long run because the Berzerkers drop in effectiveness pretty steeply in that 2nd round.

Against non-Decurian Wraiths, however, Berzerkers on the charge with either Hatred or +1 attack Tithe buffs should win out.

As for Flayed Ones, equal points with Chain Axes and the Hatred or +1 attack Tithe buffs (or both!) should actually get the job done pretty efficiently.

**harkequin**

Just on a points for points basis, don't look at things in a vacuum.

For 20pts, I (hypothetically) get:
4 Cultists (w/o champion), which are T3, W1, S3, BS/WS3, 1 attack each, Ld 7 and Sv 6+. No special rules except Champion of Chaos for the Champion, which usually hinders me more than it does any good. So 4 Wounds (Same as scarabs). I could take marks, but they'd make cultists more expensive than the scarabs and aren't worth it most times anyway.

For 20 pts, a Necron player gets:
1 Scarab-base, which is T3, W4, S3, BS/WS2, 4 Attacks, Ld 10 and Sv 6+. Looks relatively similar, except for the BS/WS2, but they get Ld10 for that (as most Necrons do). This wouldn't be so bad a comparison if it stopped here.
BUT: These are the special rules the scarabs get just by themselves (more, of course, if they take the canoptek harvest formation - but more on that later):
-Fearless (Awesome for capturing points and in general)
-Swarms (Which is an alright-drawback, but becomes quickly irrelevant if scarabs are paired with Spyders and the aforementioned formation)
-Fleet (Beast-Unit type)
-12" movement (Beast-Unit type, also awesome for capturing points)
-Ignore difficult/dangerous terrain (Beast-Unit Type)

You don't lose 4 cultists to one assault cannon bullet/lascannon/ etc.
They are different units with different drawbacks. Scarabs really suck at holding objectives. Take multi wounds/weak to Str 6, cant go to ground, no natural cover save, no objective secured.

They are all benefits to cultists, drop them behind an aegis at an objective, laugh as no-one touches it without serious effort.

**Alcibiades**

harkequin wrote:
9 wraiths (whipcoils) 387 vs 20 berserkers 390
Berserker charge.

Wraiths first.
27 attacks-13 hits-2 rend+9 wounds.
5 dead berserkers.

60 attacks-40 hits
20 wounds-7 wounds (3.5 dead wraiths)

Round 2.
wraiths 18 attacks-9 hits-1 Rend+7 wounds
3 dead berserkers

Berserkers, 24 attacks-16 hits-6 wounds
1 dead wraith.

R 3.
15 attacks-7hits-1 rend +6 wounds
3 dead berserkers.

18 attacks-12 hits-4 wounds, (0.5 dead wraiths)

At this point
4 Wraiths - 9 berserkers left, just getting worse for berserkers.

Berserkers charging wraiths is apparently not a good idea. (unless you are trying to tarpit them)

EDIT : didnt notice the wraith maths above me

I said with Furious Charge. Stick in Feel No Pain too if you feel like it -- I think they can get both as the Blood Tithe.

**harkequin**

72 Lasgun shots to kill a single Wraith, and a full unit of 6 with 4+ RP is going to require an average of 864 BS3 Lasgun shots

yeah, but lasgun shots? really?

it takes 36 lasgun shots to bring down a praetorian. 360 to bring down a full squad.

+ i think your maths is off there.
(2x3)x6 = 36 . 36x2(RP) =72.
72 x 6 =432 to bring down the squad.

That is 864 at Bs3, but then again, for praets that's 720. Lasguns suck at shooting things.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

I said with Furious Charge. Stick in Feel No Pain too if you feel like it -- I think they can get both as the Blood Tithe.

That was no.2 on the blood tithe. Rage + furious charge. Thought a 2 was a reasonable buff. 4 would be identical on the charge. slightly better afterwards.

**Alcibiades**

The Wraiths will win, but the Berzerkers will hurt them. Which is more than I can say for any other infantry.

Possessed would do better I suppose.

**harkequin**

Now that i think about it, i wonder how Flayed ones would do.

6 whip wraiths 258 Vs 20 Flayed 260.
Wraiths charge. 24 attacks-12 hits-2 Rend+8 wounds.
(2) + 4 failed armor-3 failed RP.

17 FO.
68 attacks-34 hits- ~18 wounds- 6 failed- 3 dead wraiths.
FOs win first round, and every round after.

So, Wraiths beat berserkers (regardless)
Berserkers beat flayed ones (on the charge)
Flayed ones beat wraiths (regardless)

**Zelles**

harkequin wrote:
Just on a points for points basis, don't look at things in a vacuum.

For 20pts, I (hypothetically) get:
4 Cultists (w/o champion), which are T3, W1, S3, BS/WS3, 1 attack each, Ld 7 and Sv 6+. No special rules except Champion of Chaos for the Champion, which usually hinders me more than it does any good. So 4 Wounds (Same as scarabs). I could take marks, but they'd make cultists more expensive than the scarabs and aren't worth it most times anyway.

For 20 pts, a Necron player gets:
1 Scarab-base, which is T3, W4, S3, BS/WS2, 4 Attacks, Ld 10 and Sv 6+. Looks relatively similar, except for the BS/WS2, but they get Ld10 for that (as most Necrons do). This wouldn't be so bad a comparison if it stopped here.
BUT: These are the special rules the scarabs get just by themselves (more, of course, if they take the canoptek harvest formation - but more on that later):
-Fearless (Awesome for capturing points and in general)
-Swarms (Which is an alright-drawback, but becomes quickly irrelevant if scarabs are paired with Spyders and the aforementioned formation)
-Fleet (Beast-Unit type)
-12" movement (Beast-Unit type, also awesome for capturing points)
-Ignore difficult/dangerous terrain (Beast-Unit Type)

You don't lose 4 cultists to one assault cannon bullet/lascannon/ etc.
They are different units with different drawbacks. Scarabs really suck at holding objectives. Take multi wounds/weak to Str 6, cant go to ground, no natural cover save, no objective secured.

They are all benefits to cultists, drop them behind an aegis at an objective, laugh as no-one touches it without serious effort.

No natural cover saves? The things are, like, 5mm tall. Enemies don't have LoS against them if they stand behind another mini's base. And even if they die relatively fast - so do cultists. And cultists don't have 4+ FNP, 12" Movement and a ton of extra rules. They also can't be replenished - which scarabs can. 1 base per spyder near them. Scarabs very nearly have the same drawbacks as cultists (Which also don't have a natural cover save and are weak to str 6) - just that they're a hell of a lot more mobile than cultists are. Oh, and they can also auto-wound daemon princes and land raiders on a 6. Because they desperately needed that.

EDIT:
@Harkequin: You forgot that Flayed ones have Shred. It's the flayer claws.

So about 25-30 of the 34 hits would wound. And that they have an extra attack via 2 flayer claws (so actually 4 attacks, 5 on a charge).

And to stress that point again; I'm not ranting about Wraiths killing anything. I'm ranting about them surviving attacks that goddamn titans wouldn't.

**krodarklorr**

Zelles wrote:

No natural cover saves? The things are, like, 5mm tall. Enemies don't have LoS against them if they stand behind another mini's base. And even if they die relatively fast - so do cultists. And cultists don't have 4+ FNP, 12" Movement and a ton of extra rules. They also can't be replenished - which scarabs can. 1 base per spyder near them. Scarabs very nearly have the same drawbacks as cultists (Which also don't have a natural cover save and are weak to str 6) - just that they're a hell of a lot more mobile than cultists are. Oh, and they can also auto-wound daemon princes and land raiders on a 6. Because they desperately needed that.

Scarabs ate Land Raiders alive in the previous codex, for 15 points per model, and had a 5+ armor, not a 6+. Entropic strike changed to be essentially "melee gauss". Always wounds and always glances on a 6. A bit more straightforward, and still rather good. Also, Scarabs auto wound Daemon Princes anyway, as they're only T5

. But think about this, they can't normally hurt T7+, and if they're in CC with anything S6 or higher, they're going to die rather quickly. They also got more expensive in the new book, so cost a bit more if you want to bring a huge tarpit of them. The formation giving them a 4+++ does help, but it becomes a 5+ save against S6 or higher, which still isn't going to tarpit anything for that long, so what use is their special rule against T7 or higher? And their ability to eat vehicles got slightly worse, if anything.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zelles wrote:

And to stress that point again; I'm not ranting about Wraiths killing anything. I'm ranting about them surviving attacks that goddamn titans wouldn't.

Wraiths would die easier to S10 than a Titan would. And Strength D doesn't discriminate, it kills everything about evenly.

**harkequin**

Yeah , but that's my point. They're different. Scarabs are mobile, a single S6 shot will do 3 wounds to it. A single S6 shot will kill a cultist, out of 4.

Cultists aren't supposed to run around killing things. They are cheap disposable blobs.
Scarabs are 4x as expensive ppm, and will die very quickly if unsupported.

Point is that cultists going to ground at an objective will hold it. Scarabs will die instantly.
Scarabs running after a landraider will kill it. Cultists will die instantly.

Different jobs. different units.

It's like me arguing that a Helldrake is soo much better than a doom scythe.
Because it can kill MEQ's hiding in cover, and it can hover to get a better shot, it can vector strike, it can score objectives etc.

Yeah it can, but that's it's job, of course it's better than a doom scythe at it.

**Zelles**

krodarklorr wrote:
Zelles wrote:

No natural cover saves? The things are, like, 5mm tall. Enemies don't have LoS against them if they stand behind another mini's base. And even if they die relatively fast - so do cultists. And cultists don't have 4+ FNP, 12" Movement and a ton of extra rules. They also can't be replenished - which scarabs can. 1 base per spyder near them. Scarabs very nearly have the same drawbacks as cultists (Which also don't have a natural cover save and are weak to str 6) - just that they're a hell of a lot more mobile than cultists are. Oh, and they can also auto-wound daemon princes and land raiders on a 6. Because they desperately needed that.

Scarabs ate Land Raiders alive in the previous codex, for 15 points per model, and had a 5+ armor, not a 6+. Entropic strike changed to be essentially "melee gauss". Always wounds and always glances on a 6. A bit more straightforward, and still rather good. Also, Scarabs auto wound Daemon Princes anyway, as they're only T5 . But think about this, they can't normally hurt T7+, and if they're in CC with anything S6 or higher, they're going to die rather quickly. They also got more expensive in the new book, so cost a bit more if you want to bring a huge tarpit of them. The formation giving them a 4+++ does help, but it becomes a 5+ save against S6 or higher, which still isn't going to tarpit anything for that long, so what use is their special rule against T7 or higher? And their ability to eat vehicles got slightly worse, if anything.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zelles wrote:

And to stress that point again; I'm not ranting about Wraiths killing anything. I'm ranting about them surviving attacks that goddamn titans wouldn't.

Wraiths would die easier to S10 than a Titan would. And Strength D doesn't discriminate, it kills everything about evenly.

Yep. Scarabs got a little bit worse. Still - would you say they're a bad unit? Compared to what you get for 20 pts in other codices? Points wise, they pay, like, 3 pts per special rule and get their stats for free. Or they pay 20pts for their statline and get about 4-5 special rules for free. Which no other tarpit-"I'm worth nothing" unit in any other army gets (Again, except Eldar, maybe). Gretchins, Firewarriors, Cultists, SM Scouts - they all get more or less nothing on top of their low points value in terms of special rules (Except gretchin, who get furious charge). Scarabs get Ignore difficult terrain, 12" movement, the whole shabang.
Also, "Their ability to eat anything, regardless how tough it is, got slightly worse" is not a real persuasive argument, is it? They're 20 Points. They should be considered lucky to even have a unique special rule, let alone one that lets them eat through land raiders.

**krodarklorr**

Zelles wrote:

Yep. Scarabs got a little bit worse. Still - would you say they're a bad unit? Compared to what you get for 20 pts in other codices? Points wise, they pay, like, 3 pts per special rule and get their stats for free. Or they pay 20pts for their statline and get about 4-5 special rules for free. Which no other tarpit-"I'm worth nothing" unit in any other army gets (Again, except Eldar, maybe).
Also, "Their ability to eat anything, regardless how tough it is, got slightly worse" is not a real persuasive argument, is it? They're 20 Points. They should be considered lucky to even have a unique special rule, let alone one that lets them eat through land raiders.

I mean, I personally don't see Scarabs as that fantastic. They do in melee what my 13 ppm Warriors do at ranged. And my Warriors have better saves. Also, how many special rules are you incorporating here? Fearless, Fleet (from beast), Entropic Strike, and what else? The stuff from the formation? Move Through Cover means nothing for them, and so does Relentless. And the ability to get a special rule from the Spyder is great, while the spyder is alive, and while the scarabs are close to the spyder. I'm all for people complaining Necrons are OP, as some of their stuff is ridiculous, but you're complaining about the wrong units here.

**Zelles**

They also get 12" movement from being a beast and ignore difficult/dangerous terrain. That's 5 special rules (if you count 12" movement - which is, admittedly, a pretty huge bonus for a pure melee-unit) - That's as many as Tsons get, and two of theirs are champion of chaos (which is rather negative with tsons) and slow and purposeful which doesn't do jack. (I know I'm using a lot of CSM examples, which clearly aren't the best atm, but it's the one I'm most familiar with)
EDIT: Well, I guess Aura of Dark Glory and Inferno Bolts sure count as special rules as well (Doesnt matter they're in the wargear section). If you count them as well, both scarabs and tsons have 5 special rules useful for their purpose.

**harkequin**

I'm all for people complaining Necrons are OP, as some of their stuff is ridiculous, but you're complaining about the wrong units here.

Seconded.My necrons are stupid as hell, but scarabs really arent that good. They're OK, nothing to write home about.

We have something in our our army that does each of the scarabs jobs better. Thats the problem. Scarabs arent broken, other units are though.
Wraiths are better tarpits, Flayed ones better infantry/MC hunters (T 7 or less).Warriors better tank hunters. Tomb blades more mobile.

Also, seriously, most armies can take out a 3 wound T6 MC with only a 3+ save, easily. If you get first turn it should be deleted. If you go second it might be harder, but still not too bad.

**jasper76**

Zelles wrote:
They also get 12" movement from being a beast and ignore difficult/dangerous terrain. That's 5 special rules (if you count 12" movement - which is, admittedly, a pretty huge bonus for a pure melee-unit) - That's as many as Tsons get, and two of theirs are champion of chaos (which is rather negative with tsons) and slow and purposeful which doesn't do jack. (I know I'm using a lot of CSM examples, which clearly aren't the best atm, but it's the one I'm most familiar with)
EDIT: Well, I guess Aura of Dark Glory and Inferno Bolts sure count as special rules as well (Doesnt matter they're in the wargear section). If you count them as well, both scarabs and tsons have 5 special rules useful for their purpose.

I'd add an L1 Psyker to that list, too.

**harkequin**

both scarabs and tsons have 5 special rules useful for their purpose.

so? anrakyr has like 5 special rules, Orikan has 2. I would take orikan 100% everytime

**krodarklorr**

Zelles wrote:
They also get 12" movement from being a beast and ignore difficult/dangerous terrain. That's 5 special rules (if you count 12" movement - which is, admittedly, a pretty huge bonus for a pure melee-unit) - That's as many as Tsons get, and two of theirs are champion of chaos (which is rather negative with tsons) and slow and purposeful which doesn't do jack. (I know I'm using a lot of CSM examples, which clearly aren't the best atm, but it's the one I'm most familiar with)

How many points is a cultist? 5 points? Yeah, 175 points for 35 wounds? Objective Secured and a gun (I've seen this gun kill Necron models of the T5 variety, so don't knock it). A full squad of 9 scarabs is 180 points, and 27 wounds, which lose 3 wounds every time they get hit with S6 or higher. Also, another special rule we left out, Swarms. It is directly a hindrance, as they take double wounds from non-S6 blasts and flamers.

**jasper76**

krodarklorr wrote:

I'm all for people complaining Necrons are OP, as some of their stuff is ridiculous, but you're complaining about the wrong units here.

Honestly, the formation I am starting to feel I should remove in "kid gloves" games is Destroyer Cult. I am crushing it with the Detroyer Cult (inside a Decurion).

**krodarklorr**

jasper76 wrote:
krodarklorr wrote:

I'm all for people complaining Necrons are OP, as some of their stuff is ridiculous, but you're complaining about the wrong units here.

Honestly, the formation I am starting to feel I should remove in "kid gloves" games is Destroyer Cult. I am crushing it with the Detroyer Cult (inside a Decurion).

Oh, same here. I've played two lists (Decurion w/ Destroyer Cult + Judicator Battalion, and another with Canoptek Harvest + Destroyer Cult) and they've both been devastating, so much so that I only use them in very challenging games, which I rarely play.

**harkequin**

Also just think about this. How are you playing your cultists?

For my 10 scarabs, you could get 40 cultists. Cannon fodder walking up the field, giving your entire army 5+ cover, and tieing up units if they arent dealt with.

10 scarabs would be neutered by an assault cannon, or an anni barge, or like 3 tomb blades.

You are comparing apples and oranges here. Scarabs have an entirely different battlefield role. I cultists got 12" move and fleet, they would be borderline OP. If Scarabs lost it they would literally be worthless.

**Vaktathi**

krodarklorr wrote:

Wraiths would die easier to S10 than a Titan would. And Strength D doesn't discriminate, it kills everything about evenly.

Hrm...

Lets take say, a Warhound Titan.

2 Void Shields, 9 AV14 HP's.

~3.6 BS4 S10 shots to bring the Void Shields down

27 shots to take off 9 HP's (assuming no Explodes results are inflicted on the damage chart, there should be an average of 1 in there @AP2 however, but we'll be generous to the Titan and discount them for now)

So, ultimately, ~30-31 BS4 S10 shots to kill a Warhound Titan. Maybe a bit less depending on Explodes results.

Now lets look at Wraiths, without any RP to play with.

6 guys, need 3 shots per guy to get through that 3++ on average, wounds on 2's and inflicts ID, assuming BS4, that nets you an average of 32.4 BS4 S10 shots needed to kill the Wraiths.

The Wraiths will not be easier to kill via S10 than the Titan.

Likewise, D weapons don't ignore invuls except on a 6, and are going to have a *way* easier time killing a Titan than Wraiths for that exact reason.

harkequin wrote:
72 Lasgun shots to kill a single Wraith, and a full unit of 6 with 4+ RP is going to require an average of 864 BS3 Lasgun shots

yeah, but lasgun shots? really?

Was one tool of several to show how absurdly resilient they are, hence why I gave the lasguns (weakest) and S10 (strongest) as options both in my earlier post, showing how insanely resilient they are to both quantity and quality of fire.

**harkequin**

Yeah, but like i mentioned, even praetorians are that durable to lasguns. so are SM bikers.

and lychguard will take as much quality fire, same with hammernators.

The problem isn't necessarily that they are OP,(they should do what they do) they're just too cheap for it.

Also, ask around literally no Necron player thought they needed a Toughness buff. everyone was puzzled, we just rolled with it.

**Vaktathi**

All true, other such units are as durable against lasguns, just don't have the same combination of durability against S10 and S3 fire nor the same mobility (bikes can be hurt by terrain and don't get Fleet), was mainly just showing how durable they are against *anything*

But yeah, nobody is blaming Necron players specifically for the Wraith change, most people expected them to get a nerf as they were previously already seen as being a little too good for their points at T4. Getting T5 and access to the new, far more powerful RP through a formation, that could then be enhanced to 4+, was a surprise to everyone.

it just needs to be acknowledged that they're both absurdly underpriced and are just too insanely resilient against anything thrown at them, be it S10 or S3 or D. If they were 65ppm, they'd be fine, but at 40ppm, or I5 and 45ppm, they're just insane.

**Desubot**

Honestly the second you play against duran duran necrons you have to knock the kill a humans mentaily and go straight to objective based game.

They are going to lack in the objective secured field.

And generally besides the wraiths will have a terrible time in CC. get to objectives, get locked in combat. and proceed to win.

Go for any available vehicles first as its pretty much the only way to secure first blood.

Try to get into combat on objectives with fearless things.
getting a mauler fiend or 3 into a bunch of warriors is basicly killing them since they will not be able to touch you and eventually they will have to pile in which stop the wraiths from getting to it and such.
etc etc.

**adamsouza**

Vaktathi wrote:
I still haven't seen the new Necron book lose or even merely tie a game.

My Necrons are undefeated using the 7th edition codex, but they were nearly undefeated with the 5th edition codex as well, so I'm not surprised.

The other Necron player in my gaming circle has about a 50% win rate with new codex.

**Ferros**

I feel like Skitaari and Eldar are both responses to Necrons because they both do exceedingly well in working around conventional save and toughness values.

I hope this is a sign of things to come. One fragile army that relies on crazy rules, a super resilient army, a super shooty army. If they can keep finding ways to differentiate the armies in better ways than "mere" stat line, that'd be fantastic.

**40KNobz11**

So many people complain about the necrons. Well elder are over powered and always have been. Imperial knights are pretty crazy. Grey Knights have some cheese... etc etc

**Vaktathi**

adamsouza wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
I still haven't seen the new Necron book lose or even merely tie a game.

My Necrons are undefeated using the 7th edition codex, but they were nearly undefeated with the 5th edition codex as well, so I'm not surprised.

They've kinda been that way since 6E. When they were revamped in 5th, they were strong, but not out of proportion with most other 5E armies. 6E came around and tossed most other 5E armies under the table, but Necrons were just built perfectly to the 6E core rules (extra HP's on transports, AV high enough to avoid most HP stripping weapons, increased rear armor to help against new deadlier vehicle CC rules, CC units that largely weren't hamstrung by the new reserves/vehicle changes to assaults, Gauss became way more powerful, Tesla interacted with Snapshots beautifully, flyer transports that bypassed everything bad about being a Flyer transport, etc). Not much has changed on most of those fronts in 7E and they largely only got stronger (excepting the Tesla nerf).

**Desubot**

40KNobz11 wrote:
So many people complain about the necrons. Well elder are over powered and always have been. Imperial knights are pretty crazy. Grey Knights have some cheese... etc etc

Still doesnt excuse necrons.

Personally hate all the codex creep

**krodarklorr**

40KNobz11 wrote:
So many people complain about the necrons. Well elder are over powered and always have been. Imperial knights are pretty crazy. Grey Knights have some cheese... etc etc

The thing is, name an army that can run a completely casual list using pretty much anything from their codex, and can still compete with a lot of other armies. There is none? Well there you go. Necrons have that under their belt. They don't need cheese to be ridiculous, and then when you add in their cheese......oh lordy.