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 kingbobbito wrote:

 Filch wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:

 Filch wrote:
More terminator each with free cml and hml trumps scatter bikes.

Again, you must either be a troll or have no idea how to balance units.

Are you kidding me?
Are you serious?

GW is the biggest troll ever! They make stuff OP and un-balanced to sell it.

But scatterbikes still pay for their guns.... every time a unit gets better guns it pays for them.... giving an entire squad a 25 point weapon you can't possibly think it reasonable to give it for free, as terminators are now 15 points without one. Either you didn't consider that for whatever reason, or you're trolling.

SisterSydney wrote:
"Start with Seraphim @ 15 ppm

Replace Hit & Run w/ Furious Charge: 0 points
Upgrade to Celestian statline w/ +1 A (+10) and +1 Ld (+5): 15 pts
Upgrade Angelic Visage to reroll failed 4++, not just 6++: 5 ppm
Add Storm shield: 10 ppm for Elites per C:SM
Add power weapon: 15 ppm for SCS per C:AS
That's +45 ppm.. If you discount for elite troops and divide by 3 as per Ovion's rules, that's a saner +15.
15+15 = 30.

They also lose their second bolt pistol, but I'm not going to deduct 2 points for that.

Adding an Eviscerator (30 pts vs. a normal power weapon's 15) is +15, divide by 3 per Ovion = +5.

Here's another way to cost them that gets closer to 45 ppm -- but I think it's a bit of a stretch because it starts with such a different base unit:
Crusaders come standard with power sword & shield for 15 ppm.
Making them jump troops (per Ovion) is +15/3 = +5
Then giving them power armor improves their save by 1, essentially (their flak armor is irrelevant, what you're paying for is going from the storm shield's 4++ to power armor & storm shield combo's 3+/4++): +5/3 = 1.67.
Then you give them AOF, SOF, Furious Charge, & enhanced Angelic Visage, which are worth maybe 10 pts each at a guess: 40/3 = 13.3
Add a bolt pistol: +2
Upgrade their statline by +1 A & +1 Ld: 15 pts/3 = +5
15 + 5 + 1.67 + 13.33 +2 +5 = 42 points"

Going by her logic, a 15pt model can has 45pts of upgrades and still only cost 45pts.

So dont tell me this BS that a 45pt terminator with free cml is broken.

The Scatterbike comparison is also horrifically flawed because it ignores the fact that Scatterbikes pay 3 ppm more than traditional Marines and gain EJB movement (IE, Jetbike and a 2D6" thrust move in the Assault phase) and Jink.

And they're still T4/3+ with BS4.

Oh sure, they lose ATSKNF, frag/krak grenades and a pistol... but who cares about all that crap when you can zip around the board at anywhere from 12-36+" per turn and get a 10 point upgrade for a Heavy 4 S6 36" gun.

I mean, a basic Tac Marine with a Plasma (or Grav) gun costs ~29 points (14 base+15 gun), and is relegated to footslogging around, has anywhere from ~31-63% the threat range of a Scatterbiker, cannot Jink, can't JSJ around LoS-blocking terrain to prevent return fire, can't engage anything from infantry hordes to light armor with reasonable effectiveness, and definitely can't be brought en-masse.

Anybody who likes to say "Scatterbikes still have to pay points for their guns" is ignoring what makes Scatterbikes so amazing.

In any case, I believe SisterSydney's logic comes from the Unit Creation Guide that's up one the forum somewhere.

I'd also agree that a Terminator with a free CML isn't necessarily broken... but that the metric involved is also probably something that sounds like "Scatterbikes", which IMO are a terrible metric since they're quite OP.

Incidentally, I would like to jump on the 15 ppm Terminator bandwagon, but I think it might be a tad much.

Here's some alternative ideas...

TERMINATOR ARMOUR (#1)
Provides a 2+ Armour Save and a 4+ invulnerable save.

TERMINATOR ARMOUR (#2)
Provides a 3+ Armour Save on 2D6. Weapons with an AP value of 1 or 2 make this a 3+ Armour Save on a single D6 instead of 2D6. Weapons with D Strength or with Armourbane or Melta special rule ignore both Armour Saves.

DOMINATION (rule for all models with Terminator Armour)
Models with Terminator Armour may always contest objectives, even against units with the Objective Secured special rule.

I'd argue Meltaguns go to the second save category as well. We know Ceramite is actually rather good at turning aside Melta hits (see the Ceramite Plating upgrade - a vehicle with it becomes extremely difficult to kill with meltas).

Only if its reinforced, plenty of standard ceramite gets melted by meltas.

 Filch wrote:
All terminators get free cml and chaos gets 2 shot hml.

In case anyone doesn't know, this is actually a thing in 30k.

Iron Warriors get a legion-specific unit where every last guy is equipped with CML and a power fist. (In 30k, most terminators do not default come with powerfists, for the record.) They're only 50ppm. Totally evil, if you ask me.

I am 100% Fine with Terminators getting a 2nd wound, but when they do I want my Mega nobz to get a 5++ invul save and either get a big boost to their BS skill or get a 5+ FNP to make up for the buff to terminators.

Something something this quote

Whiskey144 wrote:

If you're agressively whinging about how this would make Terminators better than MANz, then also, get out. This thread is not about MANz, and if you cannot be constructive then you should leave.

My .02 is that adding wounds won't make them better. Look at how MANZ fare in the world of S8 Ap2 shooting. MANZ get 2 wounds, but they mean nothing with they get vaporized by a single S8 shot. Adding the 2nd wound would just give you a placebo effect that you're paying a proper cost, when it would do really nothing to increase their overall survivability. Without a T increase, adding wounds is not going to help all that much, if at all.

Melevolence wrote:
My .02 is that adding wounds won't make them better. Look at how MANZ fare in the world of S8 Ap2 shooting. MANZ get 2 wounds, but they mean nothing with they get vaporized by a single S8 shot. Adding the 2nd wound would just give you a placebo effect that you're paying a proper cost, when it would do really nothing to increase their overall survivability. Without a T increase, adding wounds is not going to help all that much, if at all.

And increasing their toughness would simply make them cheap centurions, as has been mentioned already. I don't see this as a bad thing, though, since Centurions have much stronger guns and do play differently than Terminators (Slow and Purposeful, no Deep Strike, etc.), so nobody becomes redundant. If they did add +1 wound and +1 toughness, it would probably herald the return of Deathwing lists into mainstream play, as they might actually be worth something again.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Melevolence wrote:
My .02 is that adding wounds won't make them better. Look at how MANZ fare in the world of S8 Ap2 shooting. MANZ get 2 wounds, but they mean nothing with they get vaporized by a single S8 shot. Adding the 2nd wound would just give you a placebo effect that you're paying a proper cost, when it would do really nothing to increase their overall survivability. Without a T increase, adding wounds is not going to help all that much, if at all.

And increasing their toughness would simply make them cheap centurions, as has been mentioned already. I don't see this as a bad thing, though, since Centurions have much stronger guns and do play differently than Terminators (Slow and Purposeful, no Deep Strike, etc.), so nobody becomes redundant. If they did add +1 wound and +1 toughness, it would probably herald the return of Deathwing lists into mainstream play, as they might actually be worth something again.

I wasn't suggesting a T increase. I'm merely pointing out a W increase is a superficial upgrade and won't do anything to help them in the current state of the game without something else to go along with it. I already read through the thread, and I'm merely stating my opinion on the OP's suggestion.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Something something this quote

Whiskey144 wrote:

If you're agressively whinging about how this would make Terminators better than MANz, then also, get out. This thread is not about MANz, and if you cannot be constructive then you should leave.

Yup, I read that quote from a completely different topic. And I chose to ignore it then and now. MANz are the best comparable unit to Terminators. If you buff one then the Other would need a buff as well to make it comparable still. Terminators and MANz have gotten ZERO love in the longest time and yet for some reason people still love them and bring them all the stupid time. MANz missiles don't work anymore and Terminator DSing to kill things doesn't work anymore...unless the opponent decided not to bring a bunch of S8 AP1-2 weapons that specific day.

I don't wish to discuss Orks, so many things about them need changes anyway. Now you can just basically go "NO - you can't buff Dreadnoughts/Sentinels/such-and-such walkers because they're not as totally horrible as Killa Kans!".

Melevolence wrote:
My .02 is that adding wounds won't make them better. Look at how MANZ fare in the world of S8 Ap2 shooting. MANZ get 2 wounds, but they mean nothing with they get vaporized by a single S8 shot. Adding the 2nd wound would just give you a placebo effect that you're paying a proper cost, when it would do really nothing to increase their overall survivability. Without a T increase, adding wounds is not going to help all that much, if at all.

It makes them tougher against anything sub-8 strenght such as plasma, grav, every standard infantry weapon. They get oneshot by Powerfists, Meltaguns and Lascannons which in my mind should do so against heavy infantry.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Only if its reinforced, plenty of standard ceramite gets melted by meltas.

A normal Spartan tank dies to 4-5 Stormtroopers with meltaguns.

One with ceramite armour instead eats 45 meltas before it dies.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 Filch wrote:
All terminators get free cml and chaos gets 2 shot hml.

In case anyone doesn't know, this is actually a thing in 30k.

Iron Warriors get a legion-specific unit where every last guy is equipped with CML and a power fist. (In 30k, most terminators do not default come with powerfists, for the record.) They're only 50ppm. Totally evil, if you ask me.

Thank you for telling me. At 50ppm that sounds real good. See! I am not crazy! GW already wrote the rules to imbalanced stuff.
You all need to stop thinking i am a troll and open your eyes when GW already trolls this game like a boss. They trolled you so hard you are willing to pay them top dollar to imbalance the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Something something this quote

Whiskey144 wrote:

If you're agressively whinging about how this would make Terminators better than MANz, then also, get out. This thread is not about MANz, and if you cannot be constructive then you should leave.

I know, this whiskey gets on my nerve because he acts like a know it all and acts like he owns the place but he was very polite and civil about it so I can not report as being rude.

 Filch wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:

 Filch wrote:
All terminators get free cml and chaos gets 2 shot hml.

In case anyone doesn't know, this is actually a thing in 30k.

Iron Warriors get a legion-specific unit where every last guy is equipped with CML and a power fist. (In 30k, most terminators do not default come with powerfists, for the record.) They're only 50ppm. Totally evil, if you ask me.

Thank you for telling me. At 50ppm that sounds real good. See! I am not crazy! GW already wrote the rules to imbalanced stuff.
You all need to stop thinking i am a troll and open your eyes when GW already trolls this game like a boss. They trolled you so hard you are willing to pay them top dollar to imbalance the game.

Tyrant Siege Terminators are 30K specific to the Iron Warriors Legion. Which makes them a product of the Forge World ruleset, which is actually a separate team from that of GW proper.

What ever man. If my opponent wants to play 30k then I know what to do with my terminators. Attach stuff that looks like cml on to their shoulders and shoot missiles at him.

Whiskey144 wrote:
The Scatterbike comparison is also horrifically flawed because it ignores the fact that Scatterbikes pay 3 ppm more than traditional Marines and gain EJB movement (IE, Jetbike and a 2D6" thrust move in the Assault phase) and Jink.

And they're still T4/3+ with BS4.

Oh sure, they lose ATSKNF, frag/krak grenades and a pistol... but who cares about all that crap when you can zip around the board at anywhere from 12-36+" per turn and get a 10 point upgrade for a Heavy 4 S6 36" gun.

I mean, a basic Tac Marine with a Plasma (or Grav) gun costs ~29 points (14 base+15 gun), and is relegated to footslogging around, has anywhere from ~31-63% the threat range of a Scatterbiker, cannot Jink, can't JSJ around LoS-blocking terrain to prevent return fire, can't engage anything from infantry hordes to light armor with reasonable effectiveness, and definitely can't be brought en-masse.

Anybody who likes to say "Scatterbikes still have to pay points for their guns" is ignoring what makes Scatterbikes so amazing.

In any case, I believe SisterSydney's logic comes from the Unit Creation Guide that's up one the forum somewhere.

I'd also agree that a Terminator with a free CML isn't necessarily broken... but that the metric involved is also probably something that sounds like "Scatterbikes", which IMO are a terrible metric since they're quite OP.

Incidentally, I would like to jump on the 15 ppm Terminator bandwagon, but I think it might be a tad much.

Scatterbikes ARE the new metric. You compare against the best, not the middle or the worst.

Terminators at least need either toughness 5 or make them 165 points just like the GK.

Improve Terminators without a simple power creep by improving their utility. This means giving them more equipment options, with a greater number of variations, and an improved delivery method.

Let every Terminator have the option to upgrade from a power weapon to a power or chain fist. Let every terminator have the option to wield a combi-storm bolter/special weapon. Replace stormbolters as the standard weapon with a pistol type weapon, hand flamer, grav pistol or plasma pistol for example based on how you want to use them, for +1A. Two special weapons per five men. Give them a new type of shoulder mount grenade launcher, which also counts them as being armed with assault, defensive, rad or psychotroke grenades. Make them only scatter D6 when deepstriking. Make them immune to Unwieldy. Give them Move Through Cover. Give them an inbuilt veteran tactics, additional but comparable to the Ultramarine style chapter tactics.

Give them *those* sorts of improvements, which actually gives them a swiss army knife ability to be useful in a larger niche of roles, and doesn't see them faltering because they brought a knife to a gun fight, or vice versa.

Simple solution: Every terminator can bring assault cannons, CMLs, chainfists, stormbolters, lightning claws, combi-bolters, thunderhammers, storm shields, and heavy flamers and fire them all; simultaneously. All of these upgrades amount to just 10 points per model, in total. The only rule is that you have to attach all these weapons to the model without making it look stupid.

 Kain wrote:
Simple solution: Every terminator can bring assault cannons, CMLs, chainfists, thunderhammers, storm shields, and heavy flamers and fire them all; simultaneously. All of these upgrades amount to just 10 points per model, in total.

How very Eldar of you :-p

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Simple solution: Every terminator can bring assault cannons, CMLs, chainfists, thunderhammers, storm shields, and heavy flamers and fire them all; simultaneously. All of these upgrades amount to just 10 points per model, in total.

How very Eldar of you :-p

A full unit of assault cannon/heavy flamer/plasma cannon/multimelta and CML terminators would have some pretty beefy shooting.

And to be perfectly fair terminators do seem like units that should be able to have more special weapons in a squad.

For meganobz I'd definitely suggest offering cybork bodies for a pittance and looking into ork special weapons or even meganob specific gunz to give them.

I wouldn't want Cybork bodies on my Meganobz. for 5pts you get a 6+ FNP...what im always scared of when fielding my mega nobz is taking a lascannon shot to the face which insta kills me with no armor/FNP save allowed. Now, if they brought back the old Cybork bodies (5++) that would be a different story.

Do people actually still use lascannons? Lol.

I don't think I have ever played against a SM or for that matter a Chaos player who didn't field a Predator Annihilator :-P

Why wouldn't you field Lascannons? they are the king of the battlefield in regards to ranged Anti tank weaponry....at least for the imperium. The Eldar and DE have those AV 12 weapons of course and I don't count melta because realistically its a half range.

Lascannons are inefficient at removing AV, because the AP2 bonus on the damage table is pretty useless.

When it comes down to it, the 7th edition damage table heavily nerfed AP2/AP1 weaponry, making hull point stripping the best way to remove vehicles.

Even for DE, Lance weapons are almost never used for anti-vehicle duty; that falls upon Haywire Blasters and Heat Lances more often than not.

Pile Bunker Missiles

S8 ap3 heavy 1 , delayed detonation
Treat the damage roll as wrecked regardless of damage table roll.

They nerfed AP2 and AP1 vs vehicles because it was getting a bit sad watching all the pretty vehicles going poof by turn 2 :-P. I mean granted they have those same shenanigans back again with the Eldar Fire dragons S8 AP1 counts as +1 on the dmg table so really its a +3 and against open topped vehicles its +4 meaning a roll of 3+ sees a vehicle exploding. or a 4+ against your heavily over priced Land raider.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sorry i failed to mention S8 AP1 MELTA :-p

IIRC, there was some comment going around a while back that the nerf to the Vehicle chart was an attempt to make AP2/1 - specifically Melts and Lascannons - more relevant when destroying vehicles.

I wonder if that's true, because wow.