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When they are in the normal terminator squad, cognis storm bolters have one thing going for them. The reason there is one heavy weapon and four other troopers carrying storm bolters is that they are there to shoot overwatch to give cover for the heavy weapon, which they do better than a heavy weapon can. This is the reason most imperial squads have mostly small arms instead of having ten plasma guns or lascannons per squad. It just happens that the studio did not write the game to portray that. At least terminators would especially benefit.

Speaking of other units, if I didn't know anything about their rules there is nothing about the storm bolter bits that indicates they would be better at tracking overflying aircraft or charging orks than any other weapon is.

If you have cognis storm bolters or cognis combi-bolters, thn it is also sometimes possible to take a combi-plasma, which doesn't have cognis. Now when you snapfire, you might have two or four bolt shots at bs1 and two or four bolt shots at bs2. That's two separate sets of dice to roll for things that are likely to all miss anyway, and usually during an already-lengthy assault move. I'd rather get on to the next unit than roll those two sets of dice separately. It is different than having an extra set of dice to roll when one set is of bolt rounds and the other is of plasma or melta, but this is trivial.


Yeah I also want to request the consideration of using only featured abilities. I say featured, because I think there are some rules that really identify a unit and that fill roles people are looking to fill, and then there are other rules that don't really do that. If someone wants infantry that are really hard to kill and that can fire heavy weapons after deep striking or moving, then supposedly they should look at terminators. If they want things that can do a lot of damage to high T units, or have some alpha strike ability, they look at sternguard. Cognis storm bolters do not fill a need like that. There are places it does fill a need, like the new Dire Avengers, and that is why I wonder if it is a good fit. The Eldar army might have a niche for a 4+ save unit that has bs2 storm bolters in overwatch, but I think it needs to consider whether terminators are for space marines what dire avengers are to Eldar. Maybe they are, I'm thinking it over.

I had come up with something simple that might make a simple change that would not require much in the way changes.

Storm-Bolters become Assault 3 or 4 in the hands of a Terminator.

Unwieldy Weapons in a Terminator's hands Strike at Initiative or at least Power Fist.

Rending Stormbolters for Terminators

maybe Terminators use "Mars Pattern" stormbolters

Chad Warden wrote:
Rending Stormbolters for Terminators

maybe Terminators use "Mars Pattern" stormbolters

Or at least the pretend rending that Shuriken Catapult have.

I think the OP should have sections on why the above posts are crazy. (Or are not)

People are going to keep posting things like that, which it would be nice to object to. I don't for a minute think it will deter people at all, but it would be nice if they at least should know better, that they had the chance.

Unwieldy Weapons in a Terminator's hands Strike at Initiative or at least Power Fist.

What about all the terminators with power swords or power mauls? What about all the other models with power weapons whom these will immediately obliterate? What about multi-wound models with no access to at-initiative ap2 and will die immediately?

What about the problem that none of these questions matter because these Terminators will never be in close combat, ever?

pelicaniforce wrote:
What about all the terminators with power swords or power mauls? What about all the other models with power weapons whom these will immediately obliterate? What about multi-wound models with no access to at-initiative ap2 and will die immediately?

You mean Space Wolves and Chaos Marines?
It would make Power Fist more common and worth the price you pay. There would also be less Thunder Hammers out there.
As for the ID issue, No worse than a Knight or some of the MCs out there.

What about the problem that none of these questions matter because these Terminators will never be in close combat, ever?

I have never had that problem.

Here's an idea. Talk to the people you play with, not random peeps with a point to prove on the internet.

There's a reason that last thread went to 15 pages without any kind of consensus or forward momentum.

At initiative s8 ap2 would make them worth taking for me.

Guys - we're on a forum dedicated to discussing wargaming with toy soldiers - and on top of that we're in the proposed rules section.

But beside all that, RULE #1 is to be followed AT ALL TIMES.

Anpu42 wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:
What about all the terminators with power swords or power mauls? What about all the other models with power weapons whom these will immediately obliterate? What about multi-wound models with no access to at-initiative ap2 and will die immediately?

You mean Space Wolves and Chaos Marines?
It would make Power Fist more common and worth the price you pay. There would also be less Thunder Hammers out there.
As for the ID issue, No worse than a Knight or some of the MCs out there.

DoomShakaLaka wrote:At initiative s8 ap2 would make them worth taking for me.

Those are reasons to do it. How do you actually write the rules for Terminators with power weapons? Do at-initiative power fists on terminators cost fifteen points more than power weapons, twenty points? Are they limited to a few per squad? power fists are usually only ten points more than power weapons, but power weapons usually can benefit from a ccw bonus. Do you write another rule that says storm bolters, combi-bolters and combi-weapons count as ccws?

What about all the things that would require a passage in a house rules codex go longer than "Unwieldy weapons in terminators hands Strike at Initiative or at least Power Fist?"

What about the problem that none of these questions matter because these Terminators will never be in close combat, ever?

I have never had that problem.

Well ok. I mean, if you don't have that problem, then at-initiative power fists are worth a lot and you would need to charge lots of points or limit the amount of models that could have them. If getting them into combat were unlikely or difficult, maybe either they would not be worth charging many points for, or it would not make enough of a difference to the way they play for it to be worth writing a rule for.

Yoyoyo wrote:Here's an idea. Talk to the people you play with, not random peeps with a point to prove on the internet.

There's a reason that last thread went to 15 pages without any kind of consensus or forward momentum.

Well yeah, but here we are having a conversation most of us are voluntarily involved in.

maybe the reason the last thread didn't have any consensus or forward momentum was that there was nobody making a list of changes with all the merits of each.

Extra wounds
Addresses problems with massed poor ap attacks and with ap2 plasma fire, which is a major concern
Causes problems with playability and bookkeeping, not so far solvable
Does not address problems with fire power or mobility

Better invulnerable save 4+
Addresses problems with low ap attacks, one of several priorities
Causes problems by making low ap attacks like terminators' less attractive, not so far solvable
Does not address problems with massed poor ap attacks or with firepower or mobility

At initiative power fists
Addresses problems with loyalist terminators losing models in cc, possibly low priority due to mobility
Causes problems with other wargear choices, solvable by points or add'l rules
Does not address problems ?

Toughness bonus
Addresses problems with massed low S attacks, one of several priorities
Causes problems potentially with characters' Instant Death, and may require many other rules to address low ap and fire power and mobility, and suggests changes to mark of Nurgle
Does not address problems with plasma fire or other low ap attacks, or with firepower or mobility

Is it just me, or is a simple reworking of points for terminators the simplest and most effective solution.

What are their biggest problems? Lack of durability to small arms in relation to their cost, lack of offensive power compared to cost. The simplest solution is fix their cost.

30pts/model Terminator with Power Sword and Stoembolter
Powerfist +5pts/model, Chainfist +10pts/model
Lightning Claws +5pts/Model
Thunderhammer/Stormshield +10pts/model

Reduce the cost of special weapons and maybe allow 2/5models.

It seems like the most effective solution, a basic price decrease in accordance with all the price decreases other models have gotten.

Assault 3-4 or Salvo 2/4 storm bolters
Addresses problems with volume of output be hordes
Causes problems for power armored units. When terminator-only variant, causes problems of playability re: convention that there are no rules for patterns of bolter, power armor, stealth suit, etc.
Does not address problems of ineffectiveness vs. priority targets like AV or high T models.

Storm bolters Bs2 snap fire
Addresses problems of being charged by hordes, of not having enough "stuff"
Causes problems of not being notably related to storm bolters' models.
Does not address problems of fire power or shooting resistance

FNP for terminators
Addresses problems with massed poor ap attacks and s7 plasma shots
Causes problems of not being notably related to terminators more than other space marines, and adds add'l rounds of saves, and conflicts with other abilities e.g. Apothecaries' nartheciums or grails, Iron Hands' CT, Slaaneshi icon.
Does not address problems of firepower.


Reduce basic wargear of loyalist terminators to reduce points price
Addresses problem of low ratio of utility to points.
Causes problems of ?
Does not address problems of other TDA units, does not address problems of existing models or box contents.

I think I would just add whatever anyone had to say to any section.

Lists aside you need to be very precise about their role. Tacs and LC Termies are there to bully other infantry, so they are competing against all the other goodies in their codex. They are both way overpriced and the LoW/MC/min troops meta really works against them.

TH/SS Termies are pretty good at killing MCs, so they have a niche role. The Land Raider has its own issues with pricing.

In the end we had a sorta consensus, but the wider question of what the game should look like is subjective. You can resolve that in a small group but on a net forum its difficult, especially given different views of the game, some passionate.

Good luck if you want to pursue it though! You'll learn a lot, I did. But a "dakka solution" isn't likely.

A dakka solution isn't possible. If you are actually going to be snobby about this, it is that the best use of the forum is for people who have modeled original units that don't have rules, and therefore do not need a "dakka solution," but do need a solution they use on their own with their friends and just want extra advice on. That means it's their solution, because they are the only people who will ever use that model with that conversion, and there never is a Dakka solution.



Instead, since we are talking about units that everyone uses, it might seem like the goal is some kind of verdict that suddenly everyone on Dakka approves and someone gets to feel good about their ideas being the ones that won. That is probably the Dakka solution. That is weird. I'm going to keep interrogating my own rules based on people saying proposed rule X is too powerful against meganobz, or not worth paying for in their meta. I'm interested in improving my games, I'm not remotely going to propose that other people use my rules; I don't play against any of these people.

I do think it would be nice if I could post rules for criticism and people wouldn't say "I would never want to see that happen, that should not be the way it is, etc," because after all, we have no power to change the way people play, I just want to know if the rule is internally inconsistent or has some implications I hadn't thought of.

Well a few things to conciser is that Space Wolf and Chaos Terminators are just over 30 points with the free Power Weapon. How many of them do you ever see take a Power Fist.
If they take anything it is usually Claws are a Thunder Hammer and the occasionally a Chain-Fist.
Making Power Fist 5 points might change that, but I doubt it. People are not taking them because if the I1 Attack or in combination with a Claw so they have the extra attack and Anti-Armour option. Even if they were free, the only real place you see them are in Terminator Tactical Squads and that is because you have no choice.
The same goes for the Power Axe on Characters, unless a Storm Shield is also taken.

Well thought out. I like a lot of this, it's practical and not Overpowered, particularly stormbolters being given a long overdue boost. Swords instead of fists basic would also be a very welcome move.

However it still doesn't address the core problem with termies for the last X editions -their disappointing survivablility. That 5+ invul just doesn't cut it, not for the most advanced armour available to the imperium.

 thegreatchimp wrote:
Well thought out. I like a lot of this, it's practical and not Overpowered, particularly stormbolters being given a long overdue boost. Swords instead of fists basic would also be a very welcome move.

However it still doesn't address the core problem with termies for the last X editions -their disappointing survivablility. That 5+ invul just doesn't cut it, not for the most advanced armour available to the imperium.

The 2+ doesn't really cut it, either. Not for the price.

My thoughts were to make their armor 1+, only melts guns and the like negating their save. Furthermore change armor save in general by automatically refilling failed saves on any attack that has an ap two worse than its armor (3+ rerolls AP and worse for instance).

 lazarian wrote:
My thoughts were to make their armor 1+, only melts guns and the like negating their save. Furthermore change armor save in general by automatically refilling failed saves on any attack that has an ap two worse than its armor (3+ rerolls AP and worse for instance).

Xeno players have already pitched a fit about this suggestion in other threads. Let's just save ourselves the flaming and move on :\ Depressingly, the best solution that I can see under the current rules set is to just get rid of them. There is no mathematical sweet spot that I can find for models stuck with the armaments they are stuck with. Before you ask, I have like 30 terminators. But just taking them away would improve several players' games that I know of.

 lazarian wrote:
My thoughts were to make their armor 1+, only melts guns and the like negating their save. Furthermore change armor save in general by automatically refilling failed saves on any attack that has an ap two worse than its armor (3+ rerolls AP and worse for instance).

I believe a 1+ would be too good. Under that rule, lascannons would only tickle them and that wouldn't be right! The best solutions I've seen to date is to change their base invul to 4+ (doesn't solve the problem of them dyiing to massed small arms fire but it at least gives them adequate resistance to low AP weapons). The only undersireable effect of this will be to nerf storm shields a little. (arguable whether it's worth trading a storm bolter just to increase an invul from 4+ to 3+), but I'm sure that could easily be adressed, perhaps by giving SS Hammer of Wrath to keep it useful.

 thegreatchimp wrote:

 lazarian wrote:
My thoughts were to make their armor 1+, only melts guns and the like negating their save. Furthermore change armor save in general by automatically refilling failed saves on any attack that has an ap two worse than its armor (3+ rerolls AP and worse for instance).

I believe a 1+ would be too good. Under that rule, lascannons would only tickle them and that wouldn't be right! The best solutions I've seen to date is to change their base invul to 4+ (doesn't solve the problem of them dyiing to massed small arms fire but it at least gives them adequate resistance to low AP weapons). The only undersireable effect of this will be to nerf storm shields a little. (arguable whether it's worth trading a storm bolter just to increase an invul from 4+ to 3+), but I'm sure that could easily be adressed, perhaps by giving SS Hammer of Wrath to keep it useful.

Why is that not right? Lascannons are already garbage, this would just further solidify that status.

Making a weapon worse at a secondary role *because* its not worth the points for what it does seems... backwards.

Players - Xeno and Imperial - complain because it goes way too freaking far.
Necrons - Not a whole lot of AP1. Not a lot of AP in general. They kill Termies the same way they kill anything else: more Gauss. This change would make Termies practically autowin against Necrons.
Orks - Moar dakka? Six times the dakka is a bit too much to ask for. Or more CC hits. Six times? Crazy. Or a Powerclaw. Now the uber Termie-splatter has to face a 2+? Again, Termies would be auto-win.
Dark Eldar - spam Splinter, which already fails hard to saves, or AP2 weapons. Not a lot of AP1 in that dex. Even their AP2 is quite limited. So, once again, practical auto-lose
CW Eldar - Not as hosed as most Xenos. Fire Dragons can kill half or a third of an equal-sized Termie squad, as long as they have no SS, and get in range fine, so they could hurt the Termies before they fine. Or they could take Fire Prisms for a single shot each round. About 125 stock to kill a Termie every second or third round. Not what I'd call good. Wraiths, Spiders, and Night Spinners might kill some, too.
Nids - do they even have AP1? An Assault army that can't touch them in CC?
Tau - fusion or rail. They might be OK if they heavily tailor.

So, aside from CW Eldar and Tau, that's a hard counter for every Xenos race. And even the new CW Eldar or Tau would be fighting an uphill battle, even when tailored.

Hell, even my Marines are terrified of it. But at least they have Termies of their own.

Bharring wrote:
Making a weapon worse at a secondary role *because* its not worth the points for what it does seems... backwards.

Players - Xeno and Imperial - complain because it goes way too freaking far.
Necrons - Not a whole lot of AP1. Not a lot of AP in general. They kill Termies the same way they kill anything else: more Gauss. This change would make Termies practically autowin against Necrons.
Orks - Moar dakka? Six times the dakka is a bit too much to ask for. Or more CC hits. Six times? Crazy. Or a Powerclaw. Now the uber Termie-splatter has to face a 2+? Again, Termies would be auto-win.
Dark Eldar - spam Splinter, which already fails hard to saves, or AP2 weapons. Not a lot of AP1 in that dex. Even their AP2 is quite limited. So, once again, practical auto-lose
CW Eldar - Not as hosed as most Xenos. Fire Dragons can kill half or a third of an equal-sized Termie squad, as long as they have no SS, and get in range fine, so they could hurt the Termies before they fine. Or they could take Fire Prisms for a single shot each round. About 125 stock to kill a Termie every second or third round. Not what I'd call good. Wraiths, Spiders, and Night Spinners might kill some, too.
Nids - do they even have AP1? An Assault army that can't touch them in CC?
Tau - fusion or rail. They might be OK if they heavily tailor.

So, aside from CW Eldar and Tau, that's a hard counter for every Xenos race. And even the new CW Eldar or Tau would be fighting an uphill battle, even when tailored.

Hell, even my Marines are terrified of it. But at least they have Termies of their own.

Pretty sure there is no change to terminators that would "terrify" me with scatbikes out there.

Let's look at that.

2000 pts
75 Scatterbikes. Always stay out of reprisal range.
50 Tac Termies. So slight points advantage Eldar.

Scatters kill:
75x4x(2/3)(5/6)(1/6)(1/6) = 75*4*(10/648) = 4.6 dead Termies/round
To kill 50 Termies, it takes:
50/4.6 rounds, or over 10 rounds.

So Termies just sit on every objective all game. Bikes might kill stuff, but it doesn't matter. Any unit that tries to score not only doesn't shoot, but also dies to assault easily.

Termies this way make even the stupidly OP scatterbikes nigh worthless.

Martel732 wrote:
Pretty sure there is no change to terminators that would "terrify" me with scatbikes out there.

Terminators are infantry, and almost all infantry suffers from the same issues.

- Low mobility
- Vulnerability to fire
- Limited firepower

You could fix any of these quickly with: a rule on teleporting which increases movement and assault range, an improved save or other survival buff, and adjustments to their loadout options and costing to give them better punch at their points. So basically:

- 6" ground move, additional 6" Teleport ignoring terrain, and can both shoot and assault after
- 4++ base invul save
- Every Terminator can equip a AC/HF/CML weapon
- Costing established at 30pts at Power Weapon, SB base

The downside, now we're falling into power creep again. Is that desirable? It depends on the kind of player you are. There's a lot of solutions, but their worth is always subjective. Is our baseline scatter bikes, tac marines, or Meganobz? It depends on your opponent's army and your own view of the game. And as long as there's not a common baseline to balance around, there's not a common solution. That's why throwing out ideas doesn't work... someone will always have a valid "yes, but..."

GW is going to push power creep down our throat no matter what, though.

Yep... new SM codex will be interesting

I run gk i think that all termies need to have a base cost of 160 ish a 2+/5++ saves a stat line ajustment of s5 t5which would make them wound more on hordes where you need them stand a chance vs t8 + units no insant death from s8 (which is everywhere) base ap 3/4 ap cc weapons it as far as range is concerned i barely shoot past turn 2 i have pagks for that as far as heavy weapons go i think all heavy weapons across the imperium should be available at increased point cost for non chapter weapons and 3 attacks would be awesome to balence the losses in over watch

My fix was to make all characters in units +1 wound, storm bolters are salvo 2/3 and combibolters count as a close combat weapon with iits current profile. Seemed to do the trick...