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 Sigvatr wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

As for the TTIP, the corporations can continue to kiss it goodbye, it goes against anything that the EU stands for and I highly doubt that it will ever see the light of day.

It will come and everyone with knowledge on the matter will confirm it. What will happen is that a "light" TTIP version is implemented on an official level to please the general public and shortly after, restrictions will continue to be mitigated and, ultimatively, removed. 99,9% have no idea what TTIP is about and they will celebrate a "weaker" form as a victory. Politicians all around are pleased as voters are satisfied, and companies are pleased as everything works as it was intended to. In the end, as usual, it's the economy that has the higher leverage and will, as usual, come out victorious. Time's on our side.

I have no idea what the TTIP is. Can you please post a link that would properly explain it?

Lots of text but tons of info:

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ttip/documents-and-events/index_en.htm#economic-benefits

Your average Wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_Trade_and_Investment_Partnership

An informing blog post:

http://www.bruegel.org/nc/blog/detail/article/1381-blogs-review-the-eu-usa-transatlantic-trade-and-investment-partnership/

Short info vid (biased):

 Sigvatr wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

As for the TTIP, the corporations can continue to kiss it goodbye, it goes against anything that the EU stands for and I highly doubt that it will ever see the light of day.

It will come and everyone with knowledge on the matter will confirm it. What will happen is that a "light" TTIP version is implemented on an official level to please the general public and shortly after, restrictions will continue to be mitigated and, ultimatively, removed. 99,9% have no idea what TTIP is about and they will celebrate a "weaker" form as a victory. Politicians all around are pleased as voters are satisfied, and companies are pleased as everything works as it was intended to. In the end, as usual, it's the economy that has the higher leverage and will, as usual, come out victorious. Time's on our side.

Nope.

The only clause that matters is the ISDS. And that will never happen.

Do you wan't to know why? Because every single left-leaning and right wing nationalist Deputy in the European Parliament would scream to the top of their lungs as soon as that legislation was introduced and the backlash on public opinion would have any government that even remotely seemed to endorse it fired from office. You think that the UK's distrust of the UE's bureaucracy is bad? This would be 1000's times worse and would span all the countries in the EU.

You seem to be forgetting the place where we actually live... This is Europe, not the US. Europeans, as a rule, have a huge distrust of corporations and we sure love our regulations! As much as I disagree with that mentality, most of the times, this time they are actually right.

The TTIP died in March of last year, you guys just haven't been informed of it yet.

Similar events have happened before. There are talks between (EU) officials and economy representatives that are not made public or don't get much public attention - as most people would not understand what's being discussed anyway. I'm going on a limb here, but I'd say that most of what's being discussed is discused off-topic.

One thing you have to keep in mind is that economists do not need fancy, shiny names. Politicians do. They love them. Most people do. It's so convenient to have a shiny new name popping up instead of actually knowing what's going on. Most people are idiots when it comes to complex matters...and that's awesome for us. We will either see a weaker version of TTIP. Or just see parts of it being implemented and then, afterwards, watch more and more changes come in.

If politics yell "TTIP is gone!" but its parts are still being implemented under a different name, everyone wins. Politicians are happy. Sheepish voters are happy. Economy is happy. Citizens are made happy as they profit a lot from TTIP.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Similar events have happened before. There are talks between (EU) officials and economy representatives that are not made public or don't get much public attention - as most people would not understand what's being discussed anyway. I'm going on a limb here, but I'd say that most of what's being discussed is discused off-topic.

One thing you have to keep in mind is that economists do not need fancy, shiny names. Politicians do. They love them. Most people do. It's so convenient to have a shiny new name popping up instead of actually knowing what's going on. Most people are idiots when it comes to complex matters...and that's awesome for us. We will either see a weaker version of TTIP. Or just see parts of it being implemented and then, afterwards, watch more and more changes come in.

If politics yell "TTIP is gone!" but its parts are still being implemented under a different name, everyone wins. Politicians are happy. Sheepish voters are happy. Economy is happy. Citizens are made happy as they profit a lot from TTIP.

You're only for it because you will make money.

 Sigvatr wrote:
CETA is the best thing happening in the last few years. Yes, I am extremely biased because my company, and therefore my family, vastly profit by it. It's an important step in the right direction to shift economical decision power away from individual states and back to where it belongs: companies. The more power companies hold, the better. They will always look for the best in terms of profit and guarantee a stable and strong economy. States / individual governments do not know anything about how economy works.

The biggest problem is that a government has to satisfy its potential voters and most voters have absolutely no idea of economics. At all.

CETA is awesome. Our entire little family and our friends have been dancing, throwing flowers around in joy. And - this isn't about Canada. Got a problem with someone in the US / EU? Sue them remotely via a Canadian subsidary.
..and Sigmar Gabriel is a stupid leftist anyway with noone caring about what he says.

Stuff everybody else.

I doubt that our wages will suddenly vastly increase just because of TTIP. TTIP works on a bigger scale.

Companies are already in control of countries, not the other way around. Companies can exist without a country, it doesn't work vice versa. We finance states and all services they have to offer for their citizens. Thus we, rightfully so, already have a very large influence.

Companies think long-term. Politics think extremely short-term. That's the key problem. Politicians want easy solutions as they full rely on votes and easy solutions can be understood by people. TTIP perfectly shows it - most people have no idea what TTIP actually is and why it will be highly beneficial for the greater good. They just hear "LOL TTIP IS BAD BECAUZ CONTROL FROM ZE BIG EVIL COMPANYZ" in the news and immediately believe it. Party A says "WE WILL STOP TTIP!" and naive people go "AWESUM GET MAH VOTE". That's how politics work. They rely on short-term, short-sighted solutions that work for easily impressed people.

Companies have to think long-term. They are well-aware of potential consequences. They actually evaluate their decisions before deciding.

Politics often make the mistake of not talking with the economy when taking decisions. The consequence? Bad for everyone. Increase taxes? We cut jobs. Implement minimum wage? You didn't like those extra payments anyway, did you?

TTIP shifts power back to where it belongs and forces politics to, again, talk to companies. An open, level-minded dialogue is the only way to achieve good and long-lasting solutions.

If you want the maximum good at minimum harm, then you'll want TTIP. Else, prefer to sticking to what media wants you to believe. Easy solutions are so much more comfortable.

Yes! There can only be one super power!

USA!

USA!

US..Hey! Russia, get off of Ukraine's lawn! And China, that's our fething oil! Come back here with that!

*Runs off chasing "China" with a stick*

 Sigvatr wrote:
I doubt that our wages will suddenly vastly increase just because of TTIP. TTIP works on a bigger scale.

Companies are already in control of countries, not the other way around. Companies can exist without a country, it doesn't work vice versa. We finance states and all services they have to offer for their citizens. Thus we, rightfully so, already have a very large influence.

Companies think long-term. Politics think extremely short-term. That's the key problem. Politicians want easy solutions as they full rely on votes and easy solutions can be understood by people. TTIP perfectly shows it - most people have no idea what TTIP actually is and why it will be highly beneficial for the greater good. They just hear "LOL TTIP IS BAD BECAUZ CONTROL FROM ZE BIG EVIL COMPANYZ" in the news and immediately believe it. Party A says "WE WILL STOP TTIP!" and naive people go "AWESUM GET MAH VOTE". That's how politics work. They rely on short-term, short-sighted solutions that work for easily impressed people.

Companies have to think long-term. They are well-aware of potential consequences. They actually evaluate their decisions before deciding.

Politics often make the mistake of not talking with the economy when taking decisions. The consequence? Bad for everyone. Increase taxes? We cut jobs. Implement minimum wage? You didn't like those extra payments anyway, did you?

TTIP shifts power back to where it belongs and forces politics to, again, talk to companies. An open, level-minded dialogue is the only way to achieve good and long-lasting solutions.

If you want the maximum good at minimum harm, then you'll want TTIP. Else, prefer to sticking to what media wants you to believe. Easy solutions are so much more comfortable.

... are you like, a sentient computer or something? You're taking the Necron LARP'ing a little too far brosky.

 Sigvatr wrote:
I doubt that our wages will suddenly vastly increase just because of TTIP. TTIP works on a bigger scale.

Companies are already in control of countries, not the other way around. Companies can exist without a country, it doesn't work vice versa. We finance states and all services they have to offer for their citizens. Thus we, rightfully so, already have a very large influence.

Companies think long-term. Politics think extremely short-term. That's the key problem. Politicians want easy solutions as they full rely on votes and easy solutions can be understood by people. TTIP perfectly shows it - most people have no idea what TTIP actually is and why it will be highly beneficial for the greater good. They just hear "LOL TTIP IS BAD BECAUZ CONTROL FROM ZE BIG EVIL COMPANYZ" in the news and immediately believe it. Party A says "WE WILL STOP TTIP!" and naive people go "AWESUM GET MAH VOTE". That's how politics work. They rely on short-term, short-sighted solutions that work for easily impressed people.

Companies have to think long-term. They are well-aware of potential consequences. They actually evaluate their decisions before deciding.

Politics often make the mistake of not talking with the economy when taking decisions. The consequence? Bad for everyone. Increase taxes? We cut jobs. Implement minimum wage? You didn't like those extra payments anyway, did you?

TTIP shifts power back to where it belongs and forces politics to, again, talk to companies. An open, level-minded dialogue is the only way to achieve good and long-lasting solutions.

If you want the maximum good at minimum harm, then you'll want TTIP. Else, prefer to sticking to what media wants you to believe. Easy solutions are so much more comfortable.

Hi there, Adam Smith called, he wants his thesis back...

Sometimes he reaches Chongara levels of satire.

US trade deals with Europe and Asia face setback

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32717241

Efforts to introduce US trade deals with Europe and Asia have been dealt a blow after a vote in the Senate.

Late on Tuesday, senators rejected a bill that would allow the president to speed trade deals through Congress.

This means that Barack Obama will not be able to fast-track trade pacts such as the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) and Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP).

The Senate voted 52 to 45, eight votes short of the 60 votes needed to pass.

The move sets back the adoption of the TTIP, a trade agreement between the US and European Union.

The aim of TTIP is to boost the economies of the EU and the US by removing or reducing barriers to trade and foreign investment. Some are concerned that TTIP could undermine governments' right to regulate in the public interest.

TPP is a similar potential US trade pact with Asia and South America. It aims to boost growth in 12 countries in a trade zone covering 40% of the world economy through the slashing of tariffs.

The fast-track bill is vital for the creation of the TPP, according to a government spokesman in Japan.

The trade partnerships had been billed as a legacy-defining achievement for President Obama, but he has faced opposition from within his own party and labour unions.

President Obama was expected to face his toughest battle in the passage of the bill in the House of Representatives, not the Senate.

But Democrats objected to their lack of opportunity to debate trade measures such as currency manipulation by China and voted against the bill.

Only one Democrat backed the bill, in spite of intense lobbying by the White House.

The full ttip document, as leaked to bbc http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/26_02_2015_ttip.pdf

 Grey Templar wrote:
You can't have multiple independent economies tied together with a single currency. Its just going to make the stronger economies weaker with the weakest ones leeching off of them, and never learning to support themselves.

Actually monetary union has granted tremendous advantages to the larger European countries, especially Greece.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 djones520 wrote:
Economics is probably my weakest subject, so I don't really have input on this. Any thoughts?

Honestly the answer to the question is likely to be found more in politics than economics. Economics told us that the reforms in Greece, without any currency of its own to devalue and so regain competitiveness, would be a terrible burden to bear. And that's what happened.

But the real question was ultimately political - whether leaders in Greece and Europe had the skill and the will to do what was needed to keep Greece part of the union. So far the answer has been yes, but who knows what the future might bring?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 loki old fart wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
It's an important step in the right direction to shift economical decision power away from individual states and back to where it belongs: companies. The more power companies hold, the better. They will always look for the best in terms of profit and guarantee a stable and strong economy. States / individual governments do not know anything about how economy works.

Holy crap that reads like parody.