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 ansacs wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
You can't take extra wraithknights as part of a CAD because they themselves are not a formation. On the other hand with being able to use multiple LoW why would you ever take CAD over multiple Jump, 6W, T8, D throwing Gargantuan Creatures?

Because there are a number of VERY hard counters to 5-6 wraithknight lists. I myself play 3 different army lists which would average 2-3 dead wraithknights on the first turn, that is not exactly a formula to win 7+ GT matches.

Additionally that is not a legal list in ITC events which is one of the most common tournament rules packages.

What are said VERY hard counters? I have yet to see one out my local area thus far.


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I guess if you are running naked wraithknights then yeah i could see some counters but add in the Star Cannons on the shoulders and you can put down elite infantry pretty quick too.

Heck, White Scar grav bikers alone and will average 2-3 dead wraithknights on turn 1. (one of the more popular armies I play)

The drop pod grav centurions list I play with 3 Drop Pods with a librarian and 3 grav cents in each pod will average almost ~3-4 dead wraithknights on first turn depending mostly on if I got perfect timing and can get my psychic powers off.

The entire series of freak show lists can also take down 2-3 wraithknights in a single turn depending how many wraithknights you cluster within 12" of a central point.

This is ignoring the other CWE lists where there are a huge number of wraithkight killers;
1) Wraithguard are obvious. They become even more obvious allied with DE in raiders.
2) 3 units of 5 aspect host warp spiders averages a dead wraithknight, are mostly safe from proper retalitation from them, and has the same cost a a wraithknight with 1 starcannon
3) The windrider host shubikes actually kill a wraithknight when they use their shred rule. It takes 15 shubikes but they are also a good TAC unit even without their shred.
4) Even the crimson death and dire avenger formations are a real pain for an extreme build like 5-6 wraithknights.
5) The new seer council would be dependent on powers rolled. However doom combined with blade storm is a very bad thing for wraithknights.

Those are all the more common armies I play. I also have a couple of forgeworld army lists which can kill 2-3 wraithknights a turn and 2 lists which just wouldn't care about non ObjSec knights.

All of that was under self prescribed limits. There are a whole range of super heavies that could do it but I find to be too limiting or are not allowed under the restrictions I normally play.

Is that for marines or for other armies too? Because I have been trying to find a unit composition that would help me vs eldar, and am having problems with that.

Which army? I only bothered listing SM, DE, Harlie, and CWE. However, I have a few Renegades and Heretics, Elysian Drop Troops, Death Korps of Krieg, IG, Renegades of Vraks, Imperial Knights, Chaos Daemons, Khorne Daemonkin, and CSM lists that I can either hard counter the "competitive" multi wraithknight and/or scatbike spam builds. Ironically much of what works well to kill wraithknights also can kill scatbikes en mass. (though not necessarily vice versa)

If you want solutions for nids then Jy2 has a great article outlining nids vs CWE.

I could try to comment on Orks and Necrons but I really only know them from the outside.

For skitarii I have proxied a bit and experimented but I don't have the models yet so I haven't considered them much. Vanguard, -1 cover save, 3x plasma cavalier units in drop pods should be brutal against most CWE units though.

Ironically the new ad mech release is shaping up to be CWE's natural predator if all the rumors are accurate. Lots of ignore cover/-1 cover save, medium strength, and grav weapons = ouch.

 ansacs wrote:
Ugh, people let us try to use the correct language for this stuff. People are using "formation" this and that like it hasn't been defined and that is what causes problems.

THANK YOU!

I was avoiding posting to this thread because I'm getting tired of all the formation/detachment threads. It seems like this gets explained every week.

A Formation is a special type of Detachment, that on the upper corner of the Datasheet has the symbol of 3 skulls joined by a circle. They are generally highly specific in terms of what you must take in them, though there is sometimes a tiny bit of flexibility.

A Craftworld Warhost is a special type of Detachment, that contains a 1-3 Core choices, 1-12 Auxiliary choices per Core, and 0-3 Command choices per Core.

SOME of the Auxiliary Choices are Formations, while others are not. For example, a Wraith Host is both an Auxiliary choice AND a formation (see the little skulls on the corner of the datasheet...), while Wraith-Constructs does NOT have a datasheet and is NOT a Formation. Likewise, you can't just take 1 unit of Rangers because "Ouctacsts" is NOT a formation (though it is an auxiliary choice).

Not that complicated, right?