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There is another option. Instead of matching Strength (S4 versus S7/S8), match AP value (Volleygun/ML). If you go this direction it's worth buying the Stubber and HK Missile to scrap as many transports as possible on turn 1. This way you can shake light AV on T1, transition into hunting 3+ MCs, Elites and Bikes, and even attack hordes with the Stubber, Volleygun and Frag Missiles. I personally think the Autocannon is a mediocre weapon and a Relentless TL-Volleygun is too good to pass up.

The "Low Altitude Flight" rule will place a unit with zero scatter in Melta range, on Tempestus that is also pretty strong. Seriously think about running a both a CAD and an ally detachment to get three command squads, they can all twin-link reliably so that's 10-11x hits in Melta range. Goodbye AV14.

If you don't need Valkyrie transport, Vultures are more punchy and available to Tempestus through FW.

Fortification -- depends on your goals. I like the idea of Promethium Pipes, they are super cheap and you can torrent Flamers with Shred using orders on your basic troops. Getting cornered and assaulted early is a huge threat. Pure theory but I think they can cover a Taurox.

Incidentally with Inquisition, you can get a Mystic, Psyker, and 2x Multimelta Servitors for 40pts, which means zero scatter DS within 6", 1x Warp Charge, and 2x Multimelta shots if you attach an Inquisitor. Fits the Taurox Prime perfectly and opens up some new options to your DS troops.

That's an interesting thought with the matching AP. I might have to strongly consider that.

I've got a game tomorrow against a White Scars force. Maybe not the best test of a Tempestus list as I'm AP3 all across the board (those Marines are going to need some cover!), but I'll post here how it goes and some thoughts on the units' performance.

Best,

Mallory

I look forward to it although beware their cover with their bike shenanigans.

I've played several games over the past two weeks; so I thought I'd share some of my observations.

Building two seperate CADs with min-max Command and Scion squads seem to be the way forward. The formations lack the ability to issue multiple orders a turn where they are needed.

The Hot-Shot Volley guns really shine against common, powerful armies. Namely Necrons, Marines and Tau, all of which suffer from the AP3 and the volume of fire (Salvo 2/4). I'd recommend building at least one Command Squad kitted with HSVG and several Scions Squads.

Twin-Linked Plasma is your friend. This sort of goes without saying, but issuing TL on a Command or Scion Squads will wreck Terminators and their equivalents. Again, you want more Command Squads in your Detachments to get this going.

The Taurox is decent, with the ML and kept in cover. The are fragile as heck and with crumble to medium strength dedicated fire. Give them Camo-netting and keep them back, firing with the 48" ML and rushing from cover to cover in Turn 3-4 to perhaps score Linebreaker, or pick-up injured Scions to deny Kill Points.

Inquisitorial Allies bring a lot to the table. Mostly cheap and effective psykers (Giving Prescience in the Psychic Phase can allow you to order Rending, or Sniper and Pinning in the Shooting Phase to pull off some truly filthy shooting). Servo-skulls are brilliant and dirt cheap, place them on your side of terrain features and see that the 12" Scatter reduction really goes a long way (also consider if you are taking the Battle Cannon variant of the TP).

The Eversor and Callidus can help you out. This is an understatement. Hide the Eversor out of line of sight and use his 6" to get vision on a juicy target round the corner, and his 3D6" to get him in with it. He will do OKAY against armour targets, but really you want to be going against <AP5 targets to get the most out of his Neuro-Gauntlet. The Callidus, and the Eversor are most effective when you let your opponent forget about them. Melt them into cover, keep them hidden; even though it's tempting to go for that 1" Infiltrate and Template on an exposed Terminator Squad. The Assassins win their massive points costs back when the last more than one turn. Use them like Assassins, not Deathstars.

That's about all I can think of for now, but I hope you find it useful. I'd love to hear any elaborations.

Best,

Mallory>

Mallory wrote:

Building two seperate CADs with min-max Command and Scion squads seem to be the way forward. The formations lack the ability to issue multiple orders a turn where they are needed.

[...]

Twin-Linked Plasma is your friend. This sort of goes without saying, but issuing TL on a Command or Scion Squads will wreck Terminators and their equivalents. Again, you want more Command Squads in your Detachments to get this going.

That's interesting; you don't like the Ground Assault formation? It gives twin-linked every time they disembark.

Although the Formation appears attractive, it lacks density of special weapons, with only one fully loaded Command Squad, and two weapons in each Scion Squad. It also struggles to remain versatile for the same reason.

The Commissar is rubbish tax.

The Formation is by no means poor, but the lack of ObSec hurts it in competition with seperate CADs of MT for the same points cost IMO. Command Squads are just wicked.

Best,

Mallory

I was hoping to start a bit of a discussion about allies for Militarum Tempestus.

In the games I've played so far I've found them hurting for the lack of CC dedicated units.

Although they have effective firepower, especially at close range; if they are charged, they go down. They will lose CC to almost any other unit in the game, particularly those designed for the purpose.

So I am thinking about adding some Deathwatch Space Marines. To keep my list theme consistent, as I already run Inquisitors etc. and to add so CC punch (in the form of a unit that can actually stand up and win combats).

I am going to use the Flesh Tearers Strikeforce formation; taking a Sanguinary Priest w/Angel's Wings and (maybe) Valour's Edge, a Chaplain w/ Jump Pack and 10 Assault Marines in a single unit which will Deep Strike alongside my Plasma Scions.

- I'm also adding the Scout Squad (TR) choice to camp and objective w/ Sniper Rifles.

My thinking here is that my post-Turn 2 will be a lot more potent as the Scions may go a further turn without having to face assault as the Blood Angels can tie up one or two units and potentially destroy them.

The formation will run me about ~400pts so may only appear in my larger games. But I'll post here how effective I think the Allies are.

Best,

Mallory

So this weekend I will be getting a game in with these guys. I was going to run the airborne formation and the assassin formation. I only have around 35 guys built and the 4 valks so that's why I'm taking those plus it seems cool. The 4 assassins are because I think they can survive a turn of shooting and do some damage for me.

I've run the Assassin Execution Force a few times and found that the four of them can ordinarily win their points back and do some damage if you don't let your opponent focus them. Out of line of sight is ideal (especially with the Eversor, who can long-ball charge around a corner).

Let me know how the Air Assault Formation goes, I just feel that Valkyries lack firepower for their cost.

Best,

Mallory

Latest episode of Forge The Narrative podcast talked a lot about Tempestus. They argued that the best way to deliver them is not transports but simply deep striking, in a CAD for ObSec. The ground and air formations are fun and fluffy but not as efficient.

I just played the best game of tiny mans this year against a friend's list I helped build, we tied at 29 points after seven long turns. It has a tempestus CAD with just Scions and command squads all with special weapons, then a CAD platoon blob, and the new artillery formation. My Ravenwing rolled through his deployment zone but his deep strikers were too far away for me to stop them racking up progressive scoring.

I agree that AP3 shooting, even S3, counters big parts of several strong popular lists now. A CAD of Deep Striking Tempestus is a great compliment to any slow moving Imperial list. While not quite slow, I think three Imperial Knights would also be a great combo.

Ya I have a small CAD to give the culexus a taurox to speed around in. I would agree that the valks and tauroxes may not be as effective but they seem fun. Also valks might help with hordes which I could see normal tempestus having a problem with. For instance they would struggle against my orks due to not having enough bullets.

Alright I ran the airborne formation and execution force at 1500 points vs ad mech with the cohort cybernetics and holy requisitioner formations. It was a very close game and it ended turn 6 with a tie 14 to 14. The callidus distracted and delayed the enemy requisition formation for a turn. Also the scions did a ton of damage and were fast enough to pick up and move. I didn't use the assassins well but I've used all of those models once now so ill learn. It was a great game overall and I like the formation a lot. Sadly due to the objectives I drew I needed to not get back on the valks and therefore I didn't get the twinlinked again for disembarking. I liked the formation overall even though the valks were not good at doing damage they got me where I needed to go and then flew around as skimmers to grab objectives and jinked every turn.

I think these posts highlight that the Scion infantry can be really strong, but the list needs to be peppered with allied forces to be truly competitive.

I'd say pick up the Vendetta Formation for the aerial firepower that the Valkyries lack.

Keep away from the Tempestus Formations and maximise your Command Squads for access the ObSec and more special weapons and orders.

I'd also like to maybe think about a Knight Crusader as sheer weight of firepower is something that Scions lack. Although the Hot-Shot Volley Gun is decent, they will struggle against armies that can bring a large number of models to the table.

Best,

Mallory

Actually that is what I like the valk for. The dropped squads have enough AT available to them to do damage. The valks with missile pods and HBs and multilaser are for killing hordes I think. In the two games I ran this weekend the scions all pulled their weight but I misused the assassins I had with them and so they didn't pull their weight. The valks had enough firepower to make the enemy flyer jink and although my luck with their mrps was garbage they grabbed some objectives and moved some scions around quickly. Also the twin linked from the formation was very useful since it allowed me to blow up a rhino, land raider, 5/7 terminators inside said land raider. Then the other two units that deep strikes that turn got to kill off a squad of tac Marines and some of the giant veteran assault squad that was munching on people. The other game everyone getting twinlinked allowed me to wipe out 3 castellan robots, 3 kataphrons with torsion cannons, and wipe out half of the larger kataphron group with a dominus from the holy requisitioner formation. Sadly I made quite a few mistakes in that one and so it ended in a tie but so far the formations seem solid. Just the whole twinlinked on everyone is great for melta and plasma. Then in a CAD you grab some more guys for orders and infantry killing. Of course vendettas couldn't hurt but if your trying to stick pure scion the valks are needed for hordes with the large blasts. We shall see how it works next week at the tournament. Just need to learn everything including the assassins before then.

In summary I think the formations are pretty good but you do need a cad for objec securecured and more orders since the s3 hot shots aren't easy to wound with. I had definitely undervalued the hsvg though and now I need to build more of them for the extra cad since the formation guys seem to handle the anti tank and heavy infantry well with 6 melta guns and 4 plasma all rwinlinked.

I was hoping to re-ignite this discussion. Including a bit of perspective on how Militarum Tempestus have survived in the meta.

Does anyone think they should have new units or rules added to augment them?

Best,

Luke

The MT don't really seem to be around much. There's a niche of players like myself who wanted a solo storm trooper force and will take it at all costs regardless of whether they're competitive or not. Why? It's cool af. Here's my two pence on how they're fairing.

The main issue i'm seeing is how people are fielding them. By simply throwing melta guns everywhere and not using the formations, players are not utilizing the maximum effect of orders or the formation bonuses. The plasma gun with rending is pretty damn effective on the MTCS. So much so I considered getting rid of melta guns completely and relying on plasma MTCS for anti av14, flyers, HQ's and MC's. I have since kept some melta guns and balanced the list out but the rending plasma with 8 shots is a very versatile option. Using the formations they can twinlink everything pretty much as standard and you don't need to worry about wasting an order on it.

On the GA formation bonuses, a scion unit in a taurox with gatling cannon and volleyguns can move and fire 14 str4 shots (twin linked to get even more effectiveness) putting down some good anti-infantry power and disembark a unit which can deny armor saves to anything but terminators, twin link those guns so the guns are all more effective, possibly pin the enemy to keep the unit safe from CC and then considering the situation, use an order relevant to the target and situation for even better dakka. This with some volley guns or plasma guns mixed in makes for some SERIOUS dakka from a standard troops choice and helps keep the unit out of close combat. The orders can turn even the str3 hot shots or the str 4 volley guns into av 10 - 13 killers with rending through weight of fire AND twin linked.

The bite of the MT is vicious but they're a glass cannon on the ground. The issue here is people are trying too hard to protect vehicles and not playing aggressively enough. I've found timing to be everything to the MT and when the moment comes, you just have to go for it. Hesitating in cover doesn't work as the MT don't have the range or armor to hang back. Once the unit is at or near their intended location, the vehicle is expendable. The scions can move on foot pretty well if the transport bites the dust early but the vehicle should be gunning up the table firing both weapons at full bs until they reach their location.

Think about timing for valkyries. I use mine in two runs. The first run fires and moves the melta MSU's into position then leaves the board. Arriving on turn 2 or three, they move forwards and fire at whatever is available while getting ready to drop off their cargo. The next turn the valks drop their cargo and move back off the board. The second run comes in to provide fire support in the late game when the valks return from reserve. This time they can fire on infantry who no longer have a ride after the melta cargo acted as tin openers. The valks can also punish units sat defending objectives.

The strength of the MT is been able to wipe out and cripple a unit every shooting phase. This, when played correctly, doesn't give the target a chance to retaliate and you have the speed to take out flanks in such a way. Getting around the sides of your opponent leads itself then to full on assaults which will be the make or break of the army. If the MT can do enough damage, the opponent won't be able to recover. If they fail, the return fire will cripple the MT.

I'd have to agree with you on all accounts really.

I'm interested presently in exploiting the new Hellrain Brigade formation. With a tax of just 25 points per formation, in the form of the vanilla Commissar, it gives us access to free Scions. If you redeploy the unit even once; the cost of the Commissar is made back another major factor is that it adds another layer of tactical consideration for your opponent. I think that MT could be in a pretty good place right now.

I'm trying to get some more games organised in the New Year and will be trying to put down a near "Optimal" Scions list from the huge number of models I've ended up with.

Best,

Luke