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Added a mek gunz to the multiple CAD approach.

Do MSU Orks not suffer serious LD test issues though?
I really like the idea but ld5-7 (grots-boyz etc) isnt confidence building.

Probably the craziest thing I noticed in the Ork codex is that you can take a Mega Armour Warboss and stick him in a maxed unit of Mek Gunz. The unit can then move and shoot at full BS all while having 20 T7 wounds that are 3 pts a pop. Oh, and that unit comes out to 235 pts.

Not bad for;
33 wounds
T7 vs shooting
5 BS3 Str8 AP3 shots
and 4 Str10 CC attacks

It gets much much better when you consider the addition of special rules and warlord traits.

Though this is usually overshadowed by warbikes and speed freaks as 7ed places a heavy emphasis on mobility. Still it is a pretty decent alternative.

Great survivability but 5 str8 shots at 235 points? Hardly devastating. 16 lootas come to the same and can put out arguable as much fire. Albeit without the survivability.

Hmm... mega armour warboss in a mek guns battery just to give them slow and purposeful seems like a bit of a waste to me. It's a lot of points for a slight advantage when your boss could be smashing faces in. At least a big mek can be given a kustom force field (for even more survivability) and a decent gun to shoot with.

The other day I thought it might be fun to put mini-meks with kustom mega blastas in a traktor kannon battery, but then I realised skyfire isn't one of those rules whereby the whole unit can get it from one other model. Sad times.

MSU does not suffer from LD. If it dies it wont take a test, so instead of causing units to flee you opponent just makes overkill.

CAD

Weird boy
3 units 5 tankbutas
6 units 10 shootaboys
3 units 1 deffcopta
3 units 1 kustom mega cannon

Horde detachment
weird boy
3 units 5 tankbutas
7 units 10 shootaboys
2 units 10 grots plus runtherd
3 units 1 deffcopta
3 units 1 kustom mega cannon

Granted about LD but to a point.

In the aboce list:
Wipe the koptas "fairly" easily. 2w t5 - meh
6 units of 5 TBs? kill 2 from each= a test on 7.
Grots - easy kills. then running?
13 units of 10 shoota boys? t4, 1w, 6+? - Serious targets for any sort of alpha strike or even beta strike (they are footslogging?)
Artilliray is tough but really going to pump out the other army?

I love the idea of MSU Orks but I still contend, LD + bog standard troops, slogging it around is a recipe for nuke?

And how many points are you dedicating to shooting each unit?

Depends FC. What army are we pitting against?
I'd say Eldar bike spam/DA bike spam/WS bike could do nasty things. As could first turn alpha strike Tau/SM pods.

I just feel MSU Orks:
t4
5/6+ saves
ld6-8
footslogging
no major shooting
no alpha strike ability
easy FB points
low BS overall (thats orks!)

In my given list the only issue about LD is for boyz mobs or anything fancy you buy. Solo koptas pop. For mek gunz place cannon the closest and when it has popped you dont care about crew after. Sure each piece dies fast, the point is there are 9 solo koptas and 9 solo kannons which are pretty annoying to get rid of. On top of that you have assault trukks and charactes or whatever you fancy.

Most crews will ignore the 9 kannons - they are as you say - annoying- but not gravcent/rip/WK/TWC/sternPod annoying etc.

Didnt see any assualt trukks in the double CAD above?

Also VS alpha/beta stike armies, those AV10 trukks are popped - back to footslogging as per my post :(

Unless you get 4-5 trukks into my lines by turn 3, Im already up.

I agree, but in this thread we talk about "glitches" and 18 cheap models the opponent have to take down feels like a hack in the game. It's also an ok firebase with about 9 x S8 AP3 hits each turn (very useful against Cult Mechanicus, Eldar and SM). From there the ork player should build on and make the rest of the list.

Granted Waargh.
I love the idea.

I just think - even VS the new skyhammer formation - those 10-20 assault marines will chew up your gun crews. Guns now are useless.

Eldar bikers can flip around the back to target the crew rather than first the guns, DS units (cult mech in pods) will do same etc.
same as outflankers.

etc etc :(

Yes, that Skyhammer formation is bad news for most orks. I can only hope the theory of the attacker wasting shots or catching only a few guns in assault will help the list mitigate the damage. Against grav maybe the guns should be placed with grots in front of the kannon.

A lost mek gun is not a disaster, when the opponent use 100+ points to kill 18 pts its an ok trade.

What is more likely is they will target something juicier and you might see a trukk or BW blown up depending on how you kitted some units out..

 RFHolloway wrote:

Waaargh wrote:
Since no one has mentioned this yet :

By the book you are not limited to 1 CAD. So unless restricted by AS you can bring multiple detachments. Orks do very well in an MSU environment where you have 3 solo deff koptas pr. detachment, 2 cheap units of boyz in trukks all with ObSec and a single character to do his thing. For some of the CADS you can bring grots as troops.

Example 1:
Painboy. 50
10 boyz, nob, pole. Trukk, ram. 110
10 boyz, nob, pole. Trukk, ram. 110
Deffkopta, TL rokkit. 30
Deffkopta, TL rokkit. 30
Deffkopta, TL rokkit. 30
Total: 360 points

Repeat ad nauseam (4 CADS in a 1500 pts. battle and change weapons where appropriate). Against tau this will overload their firing capabilites as marker lights can only be so many places at once. Eldars scatter bike swarm can be tricky, use the kopters aggressively. Play the MSU game against the new SM codex.

you are not even taking the best units with that MSU - tank bustas are great,

My list (1820 bare but 1850 with a bombsquig on each unit of tankbustas)

CAD

Weird boy
3 units 5 tankbutas
6 units 10 shootaboys
3 units 1 deffcopta
3 units 1 kustom mega cannon

Horde detachment
weird boy
3 units 5 tankbutas
7 units 10 shootaboys
2 units 10 grots plus runtherd
3 units 1 deffcopta
3 units 1 kustom mega cannon

so 35 units.

1 unit of boys and 1 mek gun and one bombsquig swap for 1 unit of grots and 5 lootas so you can customise there if you want

Curious, why the Weirdboy? Hell never get his 20+ boyz extra charge. Why not KFF Meks to mobilize the guns.

@Scotsmans, the weirdboys adds more firepower to the list, while a big mek will only help a single mek gun. He is not worth it. If you looked at SAG big meks there might be a point to it.

There seems to be a lot of debate in this thread as to just what it means to bend the rules or find loopholes and how necessary that is for Orks to be competitive.

I think we all agree that a "fluffy" Ork list using only the basic Codex will not be very competitive. Forge World is a must for us. Ghaz supplement has our other viable options. Whereas anyone can make a good Marine or Eldar list using just their base Codex.

All of the methods for making strong Ork lists using the basic codex seem like exploiting loopholes to me: adding SnP to mek gunz with a MA character; sling-shotting a foot slogging mob into melee with an attached biker; attaching bike characters to Deffkoptas for Hit and Run. These sort of tactics are clearly just the result of the wording of rules and make no sense in reality (why can mek guns suddenly move and shoot just because an Ork in MA is nearby?). I would feel like a win-at-all-costs player using these shenanigans and I would expect my opponent to bring their cheese right back.

But all that being said, I think Orks can be competitive in 7th. We love Maelstrom missions because of our aggressive board control. Tankbustas, MANz, mek guns, Deffkoptas, painboyz, and bikes are all good. We just don't have the durability to survive to the end of an Eternal War mission. And our MSU strategy is terrible for Kill Points. We can give up 3 - 5 per turn, easy!

I hope they re-release IA:8 soon (not on FW at the moment) because we need transport squadrons and biker troops (although I'm guessing those will be gone in the next version).

SJM, it seems most tourneys allow one CAD + one allied detachment or two CADs, max. It is unfortunate because as others have mentioned, we don't get squadrons of Dreds or wagons and we really need HQs to get much out of our troops. Un-buffed boyz are just bullet shields that won't kill much and die by the dozen. They need bosses, painboyz, etc. to give them enough punch and durability to be a threat.

Fxeni proved that Orks are competitive with some of his recent tournament runs, but it takes every trick in the book (Green Tide with Aegis, Forge World transports, etc.) In a tournament that didn't allow Forge World, he didn't do nearly as well.

After playing against new Space Wolves today I have to say that mass MSU is too obnoxious a strategy for me to ever use.

If your trying to be competitive with Eldar etc with this nonsense then, just don't waste your time - its not worth making such an unfun list to play against, and winning because of crappy rules interactions is as bad as winning because your gak is 10x better than your opponent

As I interpretate it "hidden glitches and rule holes" means pulling out some tricks rather than go 6 x 30 boyz and lootas for the rest, go straight at the opponent and hope for the best.

In a nutshell orks as you say "dont have the durability". Issue is orks haven't got the shooting power or assault power either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Dakkamite, I think I know where you are going but I am not certain. Was the game too borring, too fishy, were the orks too strong at the cost of intuitive game mechanisms?