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 Silverthorne wrote:

 JamesY wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
. Horus only had victories when he was the emperors lieutenant.

Are you forgetting Istvaan V where his 'lack' of tactical acumen saw 4 loyalist legions almost wiped out with minimal friendly casualties by comparison? The Emperor wasn't helping him out there was he?

LOL no. Firstly it was 3 loyalists legions not 4. And Horus had complete strategic and tactical suprise due to the betrayal of the remining traitor legions. He had the high ground of space. He had greater than 2 : 1 numerical superiority. And he still couldn't destroy even one loyal legion. Pathetic.

And Sanguinus gave the emperor the "I've got a really, really, really bad feeling about this" talk before boarding the barge. Given there was an audience, anything more would have been insubordination, which at that point would have cost the imperials everything.

Also, much of the groundwork of the Dropsite Massacre was laid down by Lorgar and his Chaplains, not Horus.

 Silverthorne wrote:

And Sanguinus gave the emperor the "I've got a really, really, really bad feeling about this" talk before boarding the barge. Given there was an audience, anything more would have been insubordination, which at that point would have cost the imperials everything.

a) What story are you referencing here? Like I said I've read the original Bill King short story and Sanguinius did not object in that one.

b) Having a bad feeling is not tactical acumen. Of course he had a bad feeling; they were knowingly walking into a trap. But they were outnumbered, outgunned, out-everything, with no way of knowing that the Dark Angels and Space Wolves were about to translate in-system. From their point of view a personal confrontation with Horus, trap or no, was their only chance of winning. Tactical acumen would be having a viable alternative.

 Silverthorne wrote:

 JamesY wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
. Horus only had victories when he was the emperors lieutenant.

Are you forgetting Istvaan V where his 'lack' of tactical acumen saw 4 loyalist legions almost wiped out with minimal friendly casualties by comparison? The Emperor wasn't helping him out there was he?

LOL no. Firstly it was 3 loyalists legions not 4. And Horus had complete strategic and tactical suprise due to the betrayal of the remining traitor legions. He had the high ground of space. He had greater than 2 : 1 numerical superiority. And he still couldn't destroy even one loyal legion. Pathetic.

And Sanguinus gave the emperor the "I've got a really, really, really bad feeling about this" talk before boarding the barge. Given there was an audience, anything more would have been insubordination, which at that point would have cost the imperials everything.

Yeah you are right it was 3 not 4 (forgot white scars weren't there) you are wrong to say that him being advantaged doesn't show his tactical brilliance, it's because of that that he had those advantages. And although he might not have wiped out a whole legion, he did reduce the number of loyal astartes by around 25% (nearly 3 of the 9 loyal legions with some survivors, rough estimate) in ONE DAY. And probably by a similar number with the purge on istvaan 3. He is immense in his abilities, we just haven't seen enough of it because there hasn't been enough focus on him.

As as for Lorgar doing most of the work? He did some, as did Fulgrim. That's just well managed delegation from Horus

 Silverthorne wrote:
severely outclassed Horus in H2H,

This must have occurred sometime before Horus.. you know.. killed Sanguinius in H2H.

Horus was a good all rounder, good at everything, but not necessarily the best. Probably why he was chosen.

 JamesY wrote:
Horus was a good all rounder, good at everything, but not necessarily the best. Probably why he was chosen.

Yeah, that's exactly why. He was very good at everything. Sure, the Lion and Guilliman were better tacticians but they weren't well liked or as good at diplomacy. Sure, others were better in H2H than Horus but they weren't as good leaders. Horus was the best mix of skills of the Primarchs which is why he was best suited for Warmaster. The only trouble is the BL books with Horus in aren't overly well written so you don't actually see much of his diplomacy or tactical acumen, but it is there.

He did "liberate" the most worlds of all the primarchs with the lion and the wolf just behind him!

bertmac wrote:
He did "liberate" the most worlds of all the primarchs with the lion and the wolf just behind him!

I was under the Impression that it was Luna Wolves first, followed by the Ultramarines, and with everyone else lagging behind somewhat....

Carlovonsexron wrote:

bertmac wrote:
He did "liberate" the most worlds of all the primarchs with the lion and the wolf just behind him!

I was under the Impression that it was Luna Wolves first, followed by the Ultramarines, and with everyone else lagging behind somewhat....

It was the Luna Wolves then Dark Angels. But only by a bit AFAIK.

I think the bit about Luna Wolves followed by Dark Angels, then Space Wolves, refer to victories, while the Ultramarines are up there with the Luna Wolves (it being a bit ambiguous which legion did better) when it comes specifically to worlds liberated. Slight difference there.

tgjensen wrote:
I think the bit about Luna Wolves followed by Dark Angels, then Space Wolves, refer to victories, while the Ultramarines are up there with the Luna Wolves (it being a bit ambiguous which legion did better) when it comes specifically to worlds liberated. Slight difference there.

I think you're right, the Ultramarines were definitely only second to the Luna Wolves in something and I think it was compliances, which also covers diplomatic compliances.

Yeah, but the ultramarines were near enough twice the size of every legion bar the word bearers, so it isn't necessarily a fair comparison.

 JamesY wrote:
Yeah, but the ultramarines were near enough twice the size of every legion bar the word bearers, so it isn't necessarily a fair comparison.

They didn't start out as bigger than the others. They made themselves bigger through more efficient strategies. They took fewer losses and were quicker to integrate newly conquered worlds into the Imperium and turn them into net contributors. This allowed them to draw fresh recruits from them at a faster pace than other legions. If that allowed them to conquer worlds at a greater rate than other legions in the latter stages of the crusade then it is still to the Ultramarines' credit.

tgjensen wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Yeah, but the ultramarines were near enough twice the size of every legion bar the word bearers, so it isn't necessarily a fair comparison.

They didn't start out as bigger than the others. They made themselves bigger through more efficient strategies. They took fewer losses and were quicker to integrate newly conquered worlds into the Imperium and turn them into net contributors. This allowed them to draw fresh recruits from them at a faster pace than other legions. If that allowed them to conquer worlds at a greater rate than other legions in the latter stages of the crusade then it is still to the Ultramarines' credit.

That and their big recruiting pool of Ultramar which was mostly Guillimans doing anyway so yeah, it's still credit to them and their Primarch that they were so big.