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I'm going to have to break coteaz out of retirement I think for this. Stick him with three mm servitors, 3 melta accolytes and 6 jokero and badminton those shuttlecocks off as soon as they arrive. Looking forward to it

Ooh, now that's gonna leave a mark. If nothing else, it'll create a 12" radius of "do not drop here" with a fuzzy margin, which can be used to keep the Skyhammer force away from the things they'd really screw up.

You can still drop in the middle of the field and pin things with lascannons from forever-far, but then you're missing out on the fun assault shenanigans...

Charistoph wrote:
So, you would exclude night in those instances? "This light will allow you to see regardless of how sunny it is outside." So, you would assume this light would only work during the daytime?

But, no, no actual Wound is required. This rule is to eliminate the need for any Wounds to have been made in order to trigger the test, instead of the normal requirements for Pinning or Morale Checks from Shooting.

In your light example, I would indeed question whether you can see the light in the sun. Otherwise you would not have made that statement.

"I don't care if it's sunny or not, I will see" = \ = "Its very sunny, I will see with this light"

The normal requirements for Pinning or Morale Checks from Shooting require that you first cause a casualty (that you cause 25% actually). This rule is changing the fact that you need to roll 2D6, and it is changing the fact that you need 25% casualties.

It is not changing the fact that you need to cause the initial casualty. It is not a blanket permission to cause a Pinning or Morale Checks upon selecting a target.

Those Rules are usually written as:
"When the Skyhammer Annihilation Force's Devastator squad targets an enemy Unit in the shooting phase, it causes a morale test."
Or something similar.

The way the 'Suppressing Fusillade' is written is in 2 parts:
1) "A unit targeted (...) must take a Morale test at the end of the phase on 3D6"
2) Specification: - "regardless of how many casualties are inflicted."

As for the GMC "2 weapons" debate, (1) is not 2 permissions. It is not "must take a Morale test" + "on 3D6". It does not force you to take a morale test, and then requires it to be 3D6.
It is forcing you to take the Morale test on 3D6, when you are required to take it (casualty).
But it's not 25% of casualties that are needed, as there is (2), a specification that the test does not regard how many casualties are inflicted. But you still need 1 casualty to have a test.

You also cannot combine (1) and (2) and read:
A unit targeted (...) must take a Morale test regardless of how many casualties are inflicted.

Because that is not the Rule either. (2) is a specification of what (1) forces you to do.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Are you having regard to the number of casualties caused, when determining if a test is required?

If you answer yes, you gave broken the rule.

Couldn't be more clear that zero casualties still triggers the test.

Requiring "any number of casualty" is not having regard to the number of casualties caused. Even though it is not "none".

So i can answer "No", but still be quite certain it cannot be 0 either.

I do not believe zero triggers the test. The test must be triggered for the rule not regarding casualties to apply.


TL: DR: It is not permission to cause a test, but permission to disregard "casualties" and be on 3D6 when the test is caused.

As Akar has said though, i think i'm happy to leave it as "this is how i see it work", even if everyone would disagree... I don't think i'll meet the Formation any time soon, but if i do:

 Akar wrote:
Again, odds are against me, but it might happen in 1 game, [...] I'd have a little discussion, probably just dice it off, then play anyways.

Thank you everyone for your input, I've gotten what I needed to know.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
So, you would exclude night in those instances? "This light will allow you to see regardless of how sunny it is outside." So, you would assume this light would only work during the daytime?

But, no, no actual Wound is required. This rule is to eliminate the need for any Wounds to have been made in order to trigger the test, instead of the normal requirements for Pinning or Morale Checks from Shooting.

In your light example, I would indeed question whether you can see the light in the sun. Otherwise you would not have made that statement.

"I don't care if it's sunny or not, I will see" = \ = "Its very sunny, I will see with this light"

So you would assume that you couldn't use this light at night, since it is not sunny at night?

Than it sounds like we've learned our phrases a little bit differently. As someone pointed out, you are taking regard of how many casualties there are, when you shouldn't.

 BlackTalos wrote:
The normal requirements for Pinning or Morale Checks from Shooting require that you first cause a casualty (that you cause 25% actually). This rule is changing the fact that you need to roll 2D6, and it is changing the fact that you need 25% casualties.

Correct.

 BlackTalos wrote:
It is not changing the fact that you need to cause the initial casualty. It is not a blanket permission to cause a Pinning or Morale Checks upon selecting a target.

Actually, it is blanket permission. The first condition, and actually ONLY condition, is that a unit be targeted by said unit. It then causes the unit to take the Morale Check. It then modifies the Morale Check's number of dice. It then overrides the normal conditions of the Morale Check from 25% of the number of models, to not caring (or regarding) how many.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Those Rules are usually written as:
"When the Skyhammer Annihilation Force's Devastator squad targets an enemy Unit in the shooting phase, it causes a morale test."
Or something similar.

The way the 'Suppressing Fusillade' is written is in 2 parts:
1) "A unit targeted (...) must take a Morale test at the end of the phase on 3D6"
2) Specification: - "regardless of how many casualties are inflicted."

As for the GMC "2 weapons" debate, (1) is not 2 permissions. It is not "must take a Morale test" + "on 3D6". It does not force you to take a morale test, and then requires it to be 3D6.
It is forcing you to take the Morale test on 3D6, when you are required to take it (casualty).
But it's not 25% of casualties that are needed, as there is (2), a specification that the test does not regard how many casualties are inflicted. But you still need 1 casualty to have a test.

You also cannot combine (1) and (2) and read:
A unit targeted (...) must take a Morale test regardless of how many casualties are inflicted.

Because that is not the Rule either. (2) is a specification of what (1) forces you to do.

Actually, the phrase "A unit targeted (...) must take a Morale test regardless of how many casualties are inflicted." would be accurate to a point. It leaves out targeted by whom and the modification of the Morale Check itself, but it includes all the conditions.

Casualties are not listed once as a requirement. Indeed, the statement is how much it is NOT a requirement. It is exempted the rule from the standard requirement of 25% casualties from shooting. That standard is there, and ignoring it is confusing your understanding of this rule.

Let's look up "regardless" then, shall we?
regardless: "Without paying attention to the present situation; despite the prevailing circumstances"
regardless "in spite of difficulty, trouble, etc. : without being stopped by difficulty, trouble, etc"

Or in other words, "the unit must take a Morale Check without paying attention to the number of casualties inflicted."

Charistoph wrote:
Actually, it is blanket permission. The first condition, and actually ONLY condition, is that a unit be targeted by said unit. It then causes the unit to take the Morale Check. It then modifies the Morale Check's number of dice. It then overrides the normal conditions of the Morale Check from 25% of the number of models, to not caring (or regarding) how many.

Ah, so you get a total of 3-4 permissions from 1 single sentence?

Yes, I do see an issue with that, i made it clear in my previous post how you break down the phrase and its specification.

Charistoph wrote:
Or in other words, "the unit must take a Morale Check without paying attention to the number of casualties inflicted."

Correct, and what are the requirements to take a Morale Check?

I said i agree it must take the Morale Check without "paying attention". But that's just how it takes the test, not why.

it affects an unit targeted regardless of casualties.

Did it cause casualties? does not matter.

Did it not cause casualties? does not matter.

regardless of casualties = the amount of casualties, if any do not matter.

Normally abilities require the unit to suffer casualties/unsaved wounds, this one does not require any casualties/unsaved wounds.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Actually, it is blanket permission. The first condition, and actually ONLY condition, is that a unit be targeted by said unit. It then causes the unit to take the Morale Check. It then modifies the Morale Check's number of dice. It then overrides the normal conditions of the Morale Check from 25% of the number of models, to not caring (or regarding) how many.

Ah, so you get a total of 3-4 permissions from 1 single sentence?

Yes, I do see an issue with that, i made it clear in my previous post how you break down the phrase and its specification.

3-4 permissions? No. 3-4 directions, maybe. Target a unit, then said unit takes a Morale Check, this Morale Check is on a modified value, and this Morale Check is initiated without paying attention to the number casualties like shooting normally does.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Or in other words, "the unit must take a Morale Check without paying attention to the number of casualties inflicted."

Correct, and what are the requirements to take a Morale Check?

I said i agree it must take the Morale Check without "paying attention". But that's just how it takes the test, not why.

The requirements are the beginning of the sentence. "When a unit targeted by a devastator squad from the Skyhammer Formation". That is all the requirements to initiate the Morale Check provided. It then removes the normal requirement of 25% casualties by telling us not to regard (or pay attention to) the number of casualties the unit takes.

Another way to put it would be to say that "the targeted unit must take a modified Morale Check while ignoring how many casualties occurred instead of the normal 25%".

It really only gets complicated when you consider "regardless" to mean "at least a little" or "at least one", when that is not the meaning of the word, or its kin-phrase "without regard to".

 BlackTalos wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Actually, it is blanket permission. The first condition, and actually ONLY condition, is that a unit be targeted by said unit. It then causes the unit to take the Morale Check. It then modifies the Morale Check's number of dice. It then overrides the normal conditions of the Morale Check from 25% of the number of models, to not caring (or regarding) how many.

Ah, so you get a total of 3-4 permissions from 1 single sentence?

Yes, I do see an issue with that, i made it clear in my previous post how you break down the phrase and its specification.

Charistoph wrote:
Or in other words, "the unit must take a Morale Check without paying attention to the number of casualties inflicted."

Correct, and what are the requirements to take a Morale Check?

I said i agree it must take the Morale Check without "paying attention". But that's just how it takes the test, not why.

It is quite clear in the rulebook that the reasons to test that are listed are not the only reasons. They are the "most common"

Charistoph wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Or in other words, "the unit must take a Morale Check without paying attention to the number of casualties inflicted."

Correct, and what are the requirements to take a Morale Check?

I said i agree it must take the Morale Check without "paying attention". But that's just how it takes the test, not why.

The requirements are the beginning of the sentence. "When a unit targeted by a devastator squad from the Skyhammer Formation". That is all the requirements to initiate the Morale Check provided. It then removes the normal requirement of 25% casualties by telling us not to regard (or pay attention to) the number of casualties the unit takes.

Another way to put it would be to say that "the targeted unit must take a modified Morale Check while ignoring how many casualties occurred instead of the normal 25%".

It really only gets complicated when you consider "regardless" to mean "at least a little" or "at least one", when that is not the meaning of the word, or its kin-phrase "without regard to".

No, i do take "regardless" as "without regards to", but i am also placing this Rule within the context of Morale Rules: testing when you have suffered (a) casualty(s).

I do not think the above is "all the requirements to initiate the Morale Check".

It is "all the requirements to have to test on 3D6". It then removes the normal requirement of 25% casualties, indeed. But no where in that Rule do I read:

-When targeted, must take test.

I read:
-When targeted, must take on 3d6.
-Take regardless of 25%.

So I still have the question: - When do I test then?
Answer is in the morale Rules and what is required to take such a test.

"When targeted by this Unit you must test on 3D6" =\= "When they target, you must test"

 BlackTalos wrote:
So I still have the question: - When do I test then?

When any of the normal conditions are met, or when told to do so for some other reason. The formation explicitly tells you to take the test.

"When targeted by this Unit you must test on 3D6" =\= "When they target, you must test"

But that's not what it says.

How you seem to be reading it: "any morale tests that happen are taken on 3D6".

What it actually says: "take a morale test on 3D6".

This is one of the most clear cut rules they've written in awhile and it's still getting argued.

-2 casualties
0 casualties
1 casualties
4 casualties

These are all numbers of casualties and the rule gives zero about them.
Targeted unit takes a test. Period.

 BlackTalos wrote:
So I still have the question: - When do I test then?
Answer is in the morale Rules and what is required to take such a test.

"When targeted by this Unit you must test on 3D6" =\= "When they target, you must test"

So, is your actual question regarding the actual timing of the Check in relation to the steps in the Shooting Sequence, instead of how to determine IF the Check is made?

(Gotta love English, it can be so confusing).