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2015/08/05 22:58:06
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
Harriticus wrote: Should be noted Vengeful Spirit has retconned the Emprah's history a bit. This is now the "official" history from the BL.
He was a perpetual, but normal person, dating back to at least ancient times (the great flood of the bible is mentioned in one scene). During the dawn of the Dark Age of Technology he went to planet Molech with other perpetuals in a primitive NASA-style rocket and went into a cave that was a gateway to the Warp. He made a bargain with the Chaos Gods and when he came out he had the powers of a god. He later failed to uphold his end of the bargain though, and became known as the anathema.
This isn't a lie concocted by Erebus/a daemon either, it's said by Alivia Sureka who was a perpetual who witnessed it.
Meh, my story is backed up by more books than yours is, so I'm stickin' to the shaman story. Because multiple codices > one novel. And a BL novel, at that.
Well the shaman thing was said in a book back in the 90's.
My Armies:
5,500pts 2,700pts 2,000pts
2015/08/05 22:58:45
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
Harriticus wrote: Should be noted Vengeful Spirit has retconned the Emprah's history a bit. This is now the "official" history from the BL.
He was a perpetual, but normal person, dating back to at least ancient times (the great flood of the bible is mentioned in one scene). During the dawn of the Dark Age of Technology he went to planet Molech with other perpetuals in a primitive NASA-style rocket and went into a cave that was a gateway to the Warp. He made a bargain with the Chaos Gods and when he came out he had the powers of a god. He later failed to uphold his end of the bargain though, and became known as the anathema.
This isn't a lie concocted by Erebus/a daemon either, it's said by Alivia Sureka who was a perpetual who witnessed it.
Meh, my story is backed up by more books than yours is, so I'm stickin' to the shaman story. Because multiple codices > one novel. And a BL novel, at that.
Well the shaman thing was said in a book back in the 90's.
Realms of Chaos, plus other Chaos Codices from later editions.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
We must all join the Kroot-startes...
2015/08/05 23:23:54
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
I personally love the tragic irony of the idea of the Emperor being an all around good guy scientist and atheist/secular only to have his favored son be dupped into causing the fulfillment of a prophecy he was try to prevent by fighting against it. I also like the sort of parallel to Buddha (or the Islamic take on Jesus) in the idea of the Emperor being deified following his death. Buddha explicitly says that he not a God, merely an enlightened person and an example to follow. Then he dies, his teachings are exported east and within a few generations he is being worshipped as a God. Muslims believe in Jesus, but they believe that he was an ordinary human prophet, not God in human form. They would tell you that early fringe cults worshipping him as a God were exported to Greece and eventually Rome where this humble Jewish prophet and teacher was turned into Jeebus, the replacement for the Roman pantheon.
For the greater good.
2015/08/06 17:08:06
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
Are Muslims time-travelers now? The Roman Empire had ended about 400 years before the prophet Muhammed was born, and so Christianity already existed, as did the Gnostic Cults. Orthodox Jews also believe that Jesus was a mortal prophet, not the Messiah, incidentally. These are, after all, all basically the same religion told from different points of view.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2015/08/06 17:34:40
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
I'm saying he really shouldn't be worshiped as one for the reasons in my previous post.
And we're saying that Gods, throughout history, have never been noble and righteous figures with the inarguable good of the masses and pure-hearted motivations which will see no one hurt (or the smallest portion possible hurt).
Pagon gods were pricks. Mythological gods and goddesses were randy sister / brother fethers who had little in the way of morals. The big "God" supposedly has done some pretty horrifying things for gaks and giggles in the past, and has little problems with slaughtering all kinds of innocents just because one person annoyed him - even when he intentionally made that person go against his will.
Before this escalates, I want to say that I'm a Christian. So I'm not here to bash on religion and say it's for tools. I'm merely saying that there has never been a "Peace and love, all the time, every time, no war!" god.. Save probably Buddha.
for a "Christian" you say a lot of wrong stuff about God. Despite the bizarre claims of many regarding the old testament God of the Bible is never capricious, He is always demonstrably loving, (Genesis 18:24-33) is always wholly consistent. in fact the Bible says "He is good" over and over again hundreds of times AND backs it up time and time again and Jesus was FAR more demanding than any tenant of Buddhism. (see Matthew 5:21-48 if you doubt that)
Yes, the bible repeats "god is good" over and over again, in the same way an abused wife says that her wifebeater of a husband is a good man who means well.
He was a perpetual, but normal person, dating back to at least ancient times (the great flood of the bible is mentioned in one scene). During the dawn of the Dark Age of Technology he went to planet Molech with other perpetuals in a primitive NASA-style rocket and went into a cave that was a gateway to the Warp. He made a bargain with the Chaos Gods and when he came out he had the powers of a god. He later failed to uphold his end of the bargain though, and became known as the anathema.
What was the bargain/what did he fail to uphold? And if his powers were granted to him by the Chaos Gods, why didnt they take them back once he failed to do as he was told?
Meh, my story is backed up by more books than yours is, so I'm stickin' to the shaman story. Because multiple codices > one novel. And a BL novel, at that.
Pretty sure the Shaman thing isn't in a single codex, and really only appears in one Black Library novel that went out of print a long time ago...
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2015/08/06 18:23:29
Subject: Re:Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
I think the whole "Emperor was a good guy/scientist/atheist who wanted to abolish religion" has become more and more heavily emphasized as religion has become more derided in society and GW has become more politically correct.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
2015/08/07 12:26:32
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
I'm saying he really shouldn't be worshiped as one for the reasons in my previous post.
And we're saying that Gods, throughout history, have never been noble and righteous figures with the inarguable good of the masses and pure-hearted motivations which will see no one hurt (or the smallest portion possible hurt).
Pagon gods were pricks. Mythological gods and goddesses were randy sister / brother fethers who had little in the way of morals. The big "God" supposedly has done some pretty horrifying things for gaks and giggles in the past, and has little problems with slaughtering all kinds of innocents just because one person annoyed him - even when he intentionally made that person go against his will.
Before this escalates, I want to say that I'm a Christian. So I'm not here to bash on religion and say it's for tools. I'm merely saying that there has never been a "Peace and love, all the time, every time, no war!" god.. Save probably Buddha.
for a "Christian" you say a lot of wrong stuff about God. Despite the bizarre claims of many regarding the old testament God of the Bible is never capricious, He is always demonstrably loving, (Genesis 18:24-33) is always wholly consistent. in fact the Bible says "He is good" over and over again hundreds of times AND backs it up time and time again and Jesus was FAR more demanding than any tenant of Buddhism. (see Matthew 5:21-48 if you doubt that)
Yes, the bible repeats "god is good" over and over again, in the same way an abused wife says that her wifebeater of a husband is a good man who means well.
He was a perpetual, but normal person, dating back to at least ancient times (the great flood of the bible is mentioned in one scene). During the dawn of the Dark Age of Technology he went to planet Molech with other perpetuals in a primitive NASA-style rocket and went into a cave that was a gateway to the Warp. He made a bargain with the Chaos Gods and when he came out he had the powers of a god. He later failed to uphold his end of the bargain though, and became known as the anathema.
What was the bargain/what did he fail to uphold? And if his powers were granted to him by the Chaos Gods, why didnt they take them back once he failed to do as he was told?
Meh, my story is backed up by more books than yours is, so I'm stickin' to the shaman story. Because multiple codices > one novel. And a BL novel, at that.
Pretty sure the Shaman thing isn't in a single codex, and really only appears in one Black Library novel that went out of print a long time ago...
I have long compared both Emps and the biblical god as ebusive father figures. Someone with total power and authority over his subjects/children who has no empathy for them, or real concern other than his own goals.
"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion
DR:80SGMB--I--Pw40k01#-D++++A+/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
2015/08/07 19:25:04
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
Most gods are that way. It's not actually malevolence, it's just that they aren't human, they do not have human psychologies, or human frailties, and are generally taking a view of events that is millions of years down the road, so the concerns of any given individual, who's lifespan is but a blink in that span, just doesn't warrant much attention.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2015/08/08 01:44:24
Subject: Re:Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
The chaos gods gain power from stuff happening in the materium. If humanity dies out or the emperor wins the chaos gods 'lose'; so the state of play in the 40k universe is exactly what the chaos gods wanted and the HH worked a charm.
I thought that the emperor was the souls of ~2000 psykers ritually bonded to the body of a perpetual through mass-suicide?
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..
2015/08/08 17:37:40
Subject: Re:Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
The chaos gods gain power from stuff happening in the materium. If humanity dies out or the emperor wins the chaos gods 'lose'; so the state of play in the 40k universe is exactly what the chaos gods wanted and the HH worked a charm.
I thought that the emperor was the souls of ~2000 psykers ritually bonded to the body of a perpetual through mass-suicide?
No, he became a perpetual through the souls of the Shamans.
The exact number of Psykers was never given. However, he was born to an ordinary human woman, and didn't remember who he was or the memories of his past lives until a decade or so after he was born.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
We must all join the Kroot-startes...
2015/08/09 20:24:40
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
I'm saying he really shouldn't be worshiped as one for the reasons in my previous post.
And we're saying that Gods, throughout history, have never been noble and righteous figures with the inarguable good of the masses and pure-hearted motivations which will see no one hurt (or the smallest portion possible hurt).
Pagon gods were pricks. Mythological gods and goddesses were randy sister / brother fethers who had little in the way of morals. The big "God" supposedly has done some pretty horrifying things for gaks and giggles in the past, and has little problems with slaughtering all kinds of innocents just because one person annoyed him - even when he intentionally made that person go against his will.
Before this escalates, I want to say that I'm a Christian. So I'm not here to bash on religion and say it's for tools. I'm merely saying that there has never been a "Peace and love, all the time, every time, no war!" god.. Save probably Buddha.
for a "Christian" you say a lot of wrong stuff about God. Despite the bizarre claims of many regarding the old testament God of the Bible is never capricious, He is always demonstrably loving, (Genesis 18:24-33) is always wholly consistent. in fact the Bible says "He is good" over and over again hundreds of times AND backs it up time and time again and Jesus was FAR more demanding than any tenant of Buddhism. (see Matthew 5:21-48 if you doubt that)
Don't want to start a huge religious debate but systematically torturing a faithful and just man for no reason other than Satan insulted you and then refusing to answer said man's various questions about why you did so (see Book of Job) is the exact definition of capricious. Admittedly it is very apparent that the books of the Bible were written by various different people at very different time periods but at times embracing the idea that "God always loves everyone" is a bit of a stretch when reading the Old Testament.
Again I am not trying to insult/disprove anyone beliefs or world views, I am merely sharing my opinion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And again the Emperor started a massive war to systematically exterminate everyone who didn't fit his image. He is not nor has he ever been a "good guy."
The whole point of the Warhammer 40K universe is that every faction, even the supposedly too good "brainwashing, indoctrinating, ethnic cleansing" tau Empire is made up of self righteous bigots hell bent on pushing their way.
Also it changes from writer to writer but the Emperor's radical atheism is generally meant to evoke Stalinist Communism.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/08/09 20:29:44
2015/08/10 07:16:19
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
The big problem with "The Emperor Is Not A God" as the Imperium's official position during the Great Crusade, is that he essentially claims all the benefits of godhood and just, as Lorgar says, has issues with the word itself because he doesn't like it.
He still claims absolute and irrevocable authority over every human forever on the basis of knowledge that only he knows and that he can't share because it would destroy the people who knew it - which incidentally justifies killing vast numbers of people and then having his high priest (Malcador) carefully sanitise history after the fact.
Essentailly, the worst traits of organised religion. But he's not trying to be a god.
Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
2015/08/11 03:37:07
Subject: Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
I'm saying he really shouldn't be worshiped as one for the reasons in my previous post.
And we're saying that Gods, throughout history, have never been noble and righteous figures with the inarguable good of the masses and pure-hearted motivations which will see no one hurt (or the smallest portion possible hurt).
Pagon gods were pricks. Mythological gods and goddesses were randy sister / brother fethers who had little in the way of morals. The big "God" supposedly has done some pretty horrifying things for gaks and giggles in the past, and has little problems with slaughtering all kinds of innocents just because one person annoyed him - even when he intentionally made that person go against his will.
Before this escalates, I want to say that I'm a Christian. So I'm not here to bash on religion and say it's for tools. I'm merely saying that there has never been a "Peace and love, all the time, every time, no war!" god.. Save probably Buddha.
for a "Christian" you say a lot of wrong stuff about God. Despite the bizarre claims of many regarding the old testament God of the Bible is never capricious, He is always demonstrably loving, (Genesis 18:24-33) is always wholly consistent. in fact the Bible says "He is good" over and over again hundreds of times AND backs it up time and time again and Jesus was FAR more demanding than any tenant of Buddhism. (see Matthew 5:21-48 if you doubt that)
Don't want to start a huge religious debate but systematically torturing a faithful and just man for no reason other than Satan insulted you and then refusing to answer said man's various questions about why you did so (see Book of Job) is the exact definition of capricious. Admittedly it is very apparent that the books of the Bible were written by various different people at very different time periods but at times embracing the idea that "God always loves everyone" is a bit of a stretch when reading the Old Testament.
Again I am not trying to insult/disprove anyone beliefs or world views, I am merely sharing my opinion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And again the Emperor started a massive war to systematically exterminate everyone who didn't fit his image. He is not nor has he ever been a "good guy."
The whole point of the Warhammer 40K universe is that every faction, even the supposedly too good "brainwashing, indoctrinating, ethnic cleansing" tau Empire is made up of self righteous bigots hell bent on pushing their way.
Also it changes from writer to writer but the Emperor's radical atheism is generally meant to evoke Stalinist Communism.
He was a good guy when he first became the being that would eventually become "the Emperor". His entire purpose for creation was to protect humanity from any threat and keep it continually progressing (which is, undoubtedly, a noble goal). He's even supposedly fallen in love and had children (the Sensei, though they haven't been mentioned in a few editions, so they could be considered retconned). The Emperor might be considered a bastard for what he's done, but, you, know, almost 50k years of continually seeing all of the evil in the galaxy and not being forced to harden yourself against emotion and human compassion would drive a man insane.
Also, I don't think that the original idea behind the Great Crusade was to exterminate every alien race, just those who pose a threat, which eventually became "kill all xenos". But, hey, I could be wrong.
As for the Tau, there is nothing in official lore to suggest that the Tau do ethnic cleansing, or anything else that would be considered morally wrong (or, at least, that every first-world government of today doesn't do). Unless you're taking Dawn of War as canon, in which case, that is a shoddy basis for an argument, but go right ahead, there's nothing stopping you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/11 03:37:24
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
We must all join the Kroot-startes...
2015/08/11 05:05:16
Subject: Re:Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
greyknight12 wrote: I think the whole "Emperor was a good guy/scientist/atheist who wanted to abolish religion" has become more and more heavily emphasized as religion has become more derided in society and GW has become more politically correct.
None of the BL material is suggesting the anti-religion stuff from the Emperor is meant to be taken positively. Quite the opposite. Just read The Last Church where the religious protagonist condemns the Emperor as a bloodthirsty warmonger and chooses to die with his faith. I really can't think of a single instance where the Emperor's militant atheism is presented as being good when it's mentioned. When it's justified by characters, it's beceause he wanted to cut off the Chaos Gods. And this is not a justification applicable to the real world.
It's done mostly as a means to show how the Emperor could be oppressive, and most of all irony that the God of the Imperium wanted to abolish religion.
The more recent BL books (Vengeful Spirit) are actually showing the Emperor in a worse light. He was completely altruistic before the HH series began but now he's continually the donkey-cave in any story.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/08/11 05:07:48
My Armies:
5,500pts 2,700pts 2,000pts
2015/08/11 07:19:42
Subject: Re:Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
greyknight12 wrote: I think the whole "Emperor was a good guy/scientist/atheist who wanted to abolish religion" has become more and more heavily emphasized as religion has become more derided in society and GW has become more politically correct.
None of the BL material is suggesting the anti-religion stuff from the Emperor is meant to be taken positively. Quite the opposite. Just read The Last Church where the religious protagonist condemns the Emperor as a bloodthirsty warmonger and chooses to die with his faith. I really can't think of a single instance where the Emperor's militant atheism is presented as being good when it's mentioned. When it's justified by characters, it's beceause he wanted to cut off the Chaos Gods. And this is not a justification applicable to the real world.
It's done mostly as a means to show how the Emperor could be oppressive, and most of all irony that the God of the Imperium wanted to abolish religion.
The more recent BL books (Vengeful Spirit) are actually showing the Emperor in a worse light. He was completely altruistic before the HH series began but now he's continually the donkey-cave in any story.
Honestly, the Emperor's amazing lore is one of the primary reasons I'm into the 40k. When that goes out the window, I'll probably go out with it.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
We must all join the Kroot-startes...
2015/08/11 10:13:01
Subject: Re:Was the idea behind the Horus Heresy valid?
All He did was probably just what He tought was the best for humanity in a galaxy surrounded by hostile beings and forces capable to extinct human life. The Emperor acted like a dictatorial, merciless warmonger? True, but there was probably no other way in his mind to save the big picture. I'm assuming that all the atrocious things he did, he did for the sake of saving humanity as a whole.
If I'm not wrong (and if it is still canon) he actually tried other peaceful, soft ways to positively influence humanity in his "previous" lifes and identities, but none of them were succesful enough, and when he came out of the hiding to become the Master of Mankind we know, it sounded like some final, extreme measure he postponed until possible (personally I'd love to think that once ALL was settled down and humanity safely ruled on all the universe, he'd just disappear in the crowd once again but maybe that's too romantic/batmanesque for this universe).
"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion
