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Yes, hence the part about being much harder to use to get them to perform well. But it's not impossible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it doesn't matter too much if they are assaulting units like devastators, who might manage to kill a single talon if they're lucky.

@Roknar. Yes, 1850 is what I am shooting for. Sorry I have not responded recently. I am struggling to put all the suggestions in the list. Hopefully I can flush it out tomorrow and get it updated here.

Thanks again everyone,
Glu

Gluboy wrote:
@Roknar. Yes, 1850 is what I am shooting for. Sorry I have not responded recently. I am struggling to put all the suggestions in the list. Hopefully I can flush it out tomorrow and get it updated here.

Thanks again everyone,
Glu

What you could do is:

x1 Belakor
x1 Chaos Lord
. Daemonheart, Slaughter's Horns, Sigil, Power Fist and Claw, Jump Pack, MoN, Gift of Mutation, Melta Bombs

x10 Cultists
x10 Cultists

x9 Raptors and Champ
. MoN, 2 Melta Guns, Melta Bomb
x14 Raptors and Champ
. MoS, 2 Melta Guns, IoE, Melta Bomb
x14 Raptors and Champ
. MoS, 2 Melta Guns, IoE, Melta Bomb

x4 Havocs and Champ
. 4 Autocannons
x4 Havocs and Champ
. 4 Autocannons

Belakor ensures that your Raptor retinue for the Lord stay alive a lot more easily. and those MoS Raptors have lots of defensive mechanisms and will often strike first in a fight. You might argue that getting FNP from the Icon is better for a Lord and therefore you'll want MoS on him, but there's two issues with that:
1. The Power Fist is often what you'll be hitting with, so MoS is wasted.
2. Avoiding ID is much superior to FNP. One stray Lascannon and you're screwed.

If you want the army to potentially be faster instead of more durable, you can exchange Belakor for Huron to infiltrate the MoS Raptors, and give Huron a retinue of MoN Obliterators instead of the 2 Havoc squads. As for what to use the rest of the saved points on, beats me.

**edit** I forgot that an effect can't affect snapshots, unless it refers to them specically. So Symphony of pain doesn't help vs overwatch.

IF you were to take warp talons, one thing you could do is take the Khorne's Bloodstorm formation from daemonkin for the raptors as well as one unit of talons. It would make all the raptors khorne themed but you get a better hammer of wrath and furious charge on the talons. And it only needs two blood points to give furious charge to the raptors too or three to give them all feel no pain, which is probably the best option.
Take at least 8 warp talons, preferably a full unit.

Then take an allied detachment of Daemonkin to represent the jump pack hero. Take a chaos lord, with sigil of corruption, jump pack and the blade of endless bloodshed to make up for the lack of BftBg units. Consider taking a Collar of Khorne, since it gives you 4+ deny the witch roles even on blessings from your opponent (this is debatable though).
Then take some cultists to fill the troop requirement, they can hang back on an objective or run forward to tie something up or even kill it depending on the numbers. That's up to you. Or die for blood tithe points.
Finally take a Skull cannon. It is high strength and will allow your warp talons to assault at initiative regardless of terrain. And you only need to hit the unit. It also helps with hordes.

Move the sorcerer to a bike ( not a steed in case you need to turbo boost) and give him MoS and give him a unit of MoS bikers with banner. This makes them pretty tough and given their speed I think meltas or plasmas are the best weapon to give them. They're fast enough to possibly get behind a vehicle, but I prefer meltas either way.
Keep them them close enough to be within 12 inch on the turn you want to charge with the talons. Keep in mid that you can just turbo boost toward them and still move in the next turn to be within 12.
Make him a crimson slaughter sorcerer ( in fact just make everything crimson slaughter if your not taking veterans anyway...free fear), Give him a balestar so you get divination.
Now pray you roll Hysterical frenzy on the Slaanesh table, though Symphony of pain also has it's uses. Then get prescience from divination. After that you can get whatever you want really. Invisibilty would be awesome, as would be hammer hand or endurance. Hammerhand + Frenzy could you give Strength 7-8 lightning claws, but your probably better off rolling on telepathy. Terrify could be helpful as could hallucination and psychic shriek is always nice to have.

The reason for that being pinning. Get a unit of noise marines just in case you roll symphony of pain, so that's not wasted. Plus they can help pin the unit the talons want to attack.
Pinning that unit allows the talons to assault unmolested. No overwatch and ignoring the initiative penalty. Symphony of pain will also stop a unit from overwatching regardless of being pinned, as there is no downward limit for reducing BS. The unit will have BS 0 and so cannot fire at all, and less WS means the talons hit on 3+ (probably). Rerollable from prescience.

I'm not saying you should dedicate all those units to help the talons all the time. The other units can do their thing independently, but they are there if you ever needed them. Hysterical frenzy and prescience are good on any unit and the noise marines and skull cannon are decent at shooting just about anything. Especially if you do roll symphony of pain. The Khorne lord has grenades so he can assault with impunity. And if he kills a guy in a challenge that's an instant 2 blood tithe points, 3 if he and the talons mop up the rest. Enough for feel no pain. So they could even work on their own if you pick your targets.

If it is a hobby project more than a gaming project just go unbound?

Decent list, but you missed the three brothers theme. He wants at least one lord with jump pack and one sorceror. The third guy should be a another marine HQ (captain implies a second lord), but could potentially be a champ.
Unless your implying the librarian became a bad ass undivided daemon prince that is lol.

Roknar wrote:

Spoiler:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gluboy wrote:
@Roknar. Yes, 1850 is what I am shooting for. Sorry I have not responded recently. I am struggling to put all the suggestions in the list. Hopefully I can flush it out tomorrow and get it updated here.

Thanks again everyone,
Glu

What you could do is:

x1 Belakor
x1 Chaos Lord
. Daemonheart, Slaughter's Horns, Sigil, Power Fist and Claw, Jump Pack, MoN, Gift of Mutation, Melta Bombs

x10 Cultists
x10 Cultists

x9 Raptors and Champ
. MoN, 2 Melta Guns, Melta Bomb
x14 Raptors and Champ
. MoS, 2 Melta Guns, IoE, Melta Bomb
x14 Raptors and Champ
. MoS, 2 Melta Guns, IoE, Melta Bomb

x4 Havocs and Champ
. 4 Autocannons
x4 Havocs and Champ
. 4 Autocannons

Belakor ensures that your Raptor retinue for the Lord stay alive a lot more easily. and those MoS Raptors have lots of defensive mechanisms and will often strike first in a fight. You might argue that getting FNP from the Icon is better for a Lord and therefore you'll want MoS on him, but there's two issues with that:
1. The Power Fist is often what you'll be hitting with, so MoS is wasted.
2. Avoiding ID is much superior to FNP. One stray Lascannon and you're screwed.

If you want the army to potentially be faster instead of more durable, you can exchange Belakor for Huron to infiltrate the MoS Raptors, and give Huron a retinue of MoN Obliterators instead of the 2 Havoc squads. As for what to use the rest of the saved points on, beats me.

Decent list, but you missed the three brothers theme. He wants at least one lord with jump pack and one sorceror. The third guy should be a another marine HQ (captain implies a second lord), but could potentially be a champ.
Unless your implying the librarian became a bad ass undivided daemon prince that is lol.

A three Brothers theme wouldn't work at this point level if the heart is set on LOTS of Raptors.

In a 2000 point game, you would remove the Autocannon Havocs, use three Obliterators, take away a few points somewhere, and add Huron as the Warlord to infiltrate the Raptors.
So yes we are gonna imply that the Sorcerer is just SO badass he's like Belakor haha!

Well his first list only had one unit of raptors and one unit of warp talons. The raptors with a Sorc and the Talons with a lord.
So I think the idea was just to have two characters with jump packs that are accompanied by raptors. Or warp talons in this case, which I think are workable, but it takes a lot of dedication.

The third lord he put on a bike with a bike unit.

I agree that three characters like that is a bit much at 1.8k. But a lord and a sorc is perfectly reasonable.

The units I proposed to make the talons work reasonably well would already cost something like 800-1000 points not counting the other raptors. So not exactly an optimal choice.
But if he's fine with just two raptor squads for the lord and sorc then I think the army can still be somewhat decent if the last lord is kept cheap. Or just cut the third lord altogether for a better list as you seem more competitively minded in your lists.
It's up to him how closely he wants to follow our suggestions.

Your suggestions are awesome! I find myself torn between making the army work and my theme.

I need to go back through both of you guys recent posts with some paper and make notes, then give my list another try.

I will start doing that now! Thanks again, really thanks. I appreciate you guys spending your time to give me advice.

Glu

Could always take a single HQ sorcerer and then really kit out a couple squad leaders to be the other brothers. You could even use the same models to represent lords in higher-point games.

An alternative to Slayer-Fan123's list could look something like this.

1 Allied Daemonkin Detachment:
x1 Chaos Lord
WITH: Jump Pack, Sigil, Gore Drinker, Combat Familiar, Lightning Claw and Melta Bombs

x10 Cultists

x10 Raptors
WITH: Icon of Wrath, Melta Bombs, x2 Flamer and Powerfist

1 CAD Crimson Slaughter:
x1 Chaos Sorcerer
WITH: Mastery Level 3, Spell Familiar, Jump Pack, Sigil, Melta Bombs and Plasma Pistol

x10 Raptors
WITH: MoN, Melta Bombs, Plasma Pistol, x2 Plasma Gun

x1 Chaos Lord
WITH: Bike, Burning Brand and Melta Bombs

x7 Bikers
WITH: x2 Melta Guns and Melta Bombs

x10 Cultists
x10 Cultists

x5 Havocs
WITH: x4 Auto cannon
x5 Havocs
WITH: x4 Auto cannon

The Daemonkin lord joins the daemonkin raptors. They can engage anything really, just stay away from TEQ's until Goredrinker is buffed. In the mean time, enjoy your super charged lightning claw.

The sorcreor joins the crimson slaughter raptors and roll everything on biomancy. Pray you get Endurance and Iron Arm, but mostly endurance. Not only do you get majority T5 but also fnp(4+). Better yet, with the plasma guns you get to use relentless. You can stay at range if you want or jump within 12 inch and fire 6 plasma shots plus whatever you get from biomancy (at least smite). So a minimum of 8 ap2 shots and you still get to assault.
In an assault you can still rock with iron arm and a force maul on the sorc. Instant death Ap2 at iniative and Strength 9. But endurance will help stay alive and paired with enfeeble can make them all but untouchable while helping with killing stuff.

The bikers will be for anti tank and the lord with burning brand allows them to perform against other units too, or whatever crawls out of the tank.

Culists grab objectives and the havocs provide dirt cheap support fire.

This still eaves you with some 300 points to get whatever you still want or make the existing units stronger.
As for that third lord, I highly suggest to jsut turn him into a champ, preferably with a powerfist. That still gives you an extra 90 points to spend on marks and icons or more bodies etc. It would even allow you to squeeze in Belakor if you like special characters.
Or to hit rerolls for those nurgle raptors, they're goign to need them. Plus mixing the supplement and base codex is going to earn you a few weird looks.

If we really want three HQ's, like I said, we can remove stuff to add in Huron as the Warlord. While he isn't fast, he guarantees Infiltrate, which is worth the price of admission.

That would work too. I avoid special characters like the plague but that's just a personal thing.

In my version there's enough room to switch the biker lord with huron and still have enough points to give him a squad.