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 Ashiraya wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:


They're.....not T5....

Oh, they aren't T5 anymore?

Well, then they are just equally good as Terminators at tanking small arms fire, for a third of the cost.

It's all good now.

Pretty much.

I'm not seeing how we can, in any way, suggest Immortals are superior except as damage sponges. They have an inferior weapon selection since space marines can take heavy weapons, unless you're fishing for 6's - you point out that having Ld 10 is great when comparing ATSKNF, they have lower mobility and are a pittance in melee most of the time.

Like most Necron units you're not going to get rid of them, but likewise you're not going to accomplish much compared to most in the codex. And Hell, if we really want to run the full gammut and include synergies within the codex we can always say a Dev Squad can be made better through psychic powers while the Necrons have zero and no real ability to deny their opponents rolls/charges.

I'm more than happy to hear people complain about Necron longevity - because it's what they do. But to pretend ATSKNF isn't fantastic, that a very low I isn't a hinderence, that not having access to heavy weapons doesn't really impact them and etc. or chapter tactics doesn't confer a pretty great buff is a bit silly.

Even with Szeras their only really tangible benefit is to get .. more tough. Since an extra point of BS won't change all that much over the course of a game.

I feel like you just left out things. Immortals are just not better then tac marines, at best they are equal or tac marines are simply better.

Lets consider White Scar Tac Marines vs Immortals

For 3 more points/model the Immortals gain 2 leadership, lose 2 initiative, gain Gauss on their weapons, pseudo FnP and lose....Frag/Krak grenades, ATSKNF, Combat Squads, and Hit n' Run.

Just considering the above it seems like a fairly equal trade-off, but wait immortals also lose the ability to upgrade their models further with special and heavy weapons and their DT is also almost 4x the cost of either the marines DT.

I am just not seeing how immortals are so amazing when even compared to a tac marine.

I mean...if we remove rhinos, drop pods, heavy/special weapons, and chapter tactics...well yes...immortals > tac marines.

Well, that's IoM players for you.

Complain on everything a Xeno dares to have an edge on, and conveniently "forgets" everything they are better at.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, that's IoM players for you.

Complain on everything a Xeno dares to have an edge on, and conveniently "forgets" everything they are better at.

You mean like wraiths, tomb blades, and annihilation barges? Or flyers that work even better than drop pods for getting units where you need them?
People don't complain about immortals for the same reason people don't complain about the Eldar aspect warhost: There are worse things out there, and they draw the complaints.

SilverSaint wrote:

I am just not seeing how immortals are so amazing when even compared to a tac marine.

Because drastically more impressive resiliency and all S5 guns with "we don't care what your AV is" ability to strip HP's from tanks matter a whole lot more in a whole lot more situations than Hit & Run and combat squads and whatnot?

 greyknight12 wrote:

You mean like wraiths, tomb blades, and annihilation barges?

Annihilation barges?

Really?

Have we gone back in time to 5th now?

 Vaktathi wrote:

SilverSaint wrote:

I am just not seeing how immortals are so amazing when even compared to a tac marine.

Because drastically more impressive resiliency and all S5 guns with "we don't care what your AV is" ability to strip HP's from tanks matter a whole lot more in a whole lot more situations than Hit & Run and combat squads and whatnot?

Oh right, I forgot a large number of options and massive increase in mobility are just terrible in this game, my bad.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Ask my necron buddy who had over 450 points of his dudes swept at once in CC by my freaking TAU.

Ultimately I've abeen able to sweep even dark eldar (kabalites, though) with my Crisis. S5 does wonders, I guess

Ah, and once I've sweeped a 14-strong Warrior + cryptek with a single Striking Scorpion Exarch (the 6e one). Sometimes, LD10 isn't enough

SilverSaint wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

SilverSaint wrote:

I am just not seeing how immortals are so amazing when even compared to a tac marine.

Because drastically more impressive resiliency and all S5 guns with "we don't care what your AV is" ability to strip HP's from tanks matter a whole lot more in a whole lot more situations than Hit & Run and combat squads and whatnot?

Oh right, I forgot a large number of options and massive increase in mobility are just terrible in this game, my bad.

They're not bad, they're just not providing anything near the same value as the insane resiliency boost you can get on Immortals for zero additional points investment, and S5 guns that can also do some anti-tank duty. Most of the SM bonuses (Hit & Run, ATSKNF) we're talking about there only come into play in CC,where neither unit is spectacular.

 Vaktathi wrote:

SilverSaint wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

SilverSaint wrote:

I am just not seeing how immortals are so amazing when even compared to a tac marine.

Because drastically more impressive resiliency and all S5 guns with "we don't care what your AV is" ability to strip HP's from tanks matter a whole lot more in a whole lot more situations than Hit & Run and combat squads and whatnot?

Oh right, I forgot a large number of options and massive increase in mobility are just terrible in this game, my bad.

They're not bad, they're just not providing anything near the same value as the insane resiliency boost you can get on Immortals for zero additional points investment, and S5 guns that can also do some anti-tank duty. Most of the SM bonuses (Hit & Run, ATSKNF) we're talking about there only come into play in CC,where neither unit is spectacular.

Same with Grenades. I'd gladly pay less for many SM units to lose the grenades.

If we are talking Decurion Immortals, shouldn't we be comparing them to Strike Force Marines? The ones that can twin-link their weapons at will?

Alcibiades wrote:
If we are talking Decurion Immortals, shouldn't we be comparing them to Strike Force Marines? The ones that can twin-link their weapons at will?

They can do it twice per game with the previously aforementioned White Scars tactics to get twin linked weapons on tac marines, but not all 5-7 turns.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
If we are talking Decurion Immortals, shouldn't we be comparing them to Strike Force Marines? The ones that can twin-link their weapons at will?

They can do it twice per game with the previously aforementioned White Scars tactics to get twin linked weapons on tac marines, but not all 5-7 turns.

Isn't that Ultramarines?

The point is that it is quite good, raising chance to hit to 89%.

Huh, the math says that against MEQ it raises their damage output with bolters to exactly the same as Immortals with gauss blasters.

Alcibiades wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
If we are talking Decurion Immortals, shouldn't we be comparing them to Strike Force Marines? The ones that can twin-link their weapons at will?

They can do it twice per game with the previously aforementioned White Scars tactics to get twin linked weapons on tac marines, but not all 5-7 turns.

Isn't that Ultramarines?

The point is that it is quite good, raising chance to hit to 89%.

Huh, the math says that against MEQ it raises their damage output with bolters to exactly the same as Immortals with gauss blasters.

Yes, that is correct, on a turn they do that they'll equalize their shooting effectiveness against T4 targets with bolters relative to the Immortal's Gauss weapons, they're just limited in how often they can do it.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
If we are talking Decurion Immortals, shouldn't we be comparing them to Strike Force Marines? The ones that can twin-link their weapons at will?

They can do it twice per game with the previously aforementioned White Scars tactics to get twin linked weapons on tac marines, but not all 5-7 turns.

Isn't that Ultramarines?

The point is that it is quite good, raising chance to hit to 89%.

Huh, the math says that against MEQ it raises their damage output with bolters to exactly the same as Immortals with gauss blasters.

Yes, that is correct, on a turn they do that they'll equalize their shooting effectiveness against T4 targets with bolters relative to the Immortal's Gauss weapons, they're just limited in how often they can do it.

And do that to any special weapons they have as well.

Why complain about Immortals, when you can complain about Warriors?

Still hit the problem that neither Immortals or Warriors have access to anything better than S5 AP4, even with the auto-glance/wound, and are 0% effective outside of 24" (and have horrid Initiative, and have no access to CCWs, and are basically begging for a mow-down).