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GAdvance wrote:

 crnaguja wrote:
These is a black library novel(Blood & Fire. Must say I am a big fan of Helsreach and this novel) where Black Templar Grimaldus forces another Imperial Fists descendants, Celestial Lions, to rebuild their chapter(even thought they lost over 900 marines and whole chapter command- There is only few sergeants remaining). This in itself wouldn`t matter, but if I remember correctly, he(with Helbrechts blessing) gives Celestial Lions few apotecharies and other specialist, few old power armors, and sends them back to their home planet to rebuilt. Now, I am not sure(can`t remember) if these Black Templars are supposed to become part of Celesital Lions or not, but I found that story quite interesting.

The Black Templars who go with the Lions to Elysium are only meant to be temporary as the chapter will clearly need help rebuilding, they aren't made members of the Celestial Lions

Ah, as I said, I couldn`t recall what exactly happened. Thanks for the right info. Still a cool story

Thanks for the input, everyone!

The reason I'm leaving out the Deathwatch in the equation is because, AFAIK, the Deathwatch is more geared towards specialists, which these surviving Marines probably aren't; although I suppose the Deathwatch could always use someone to guard its outposts and such.

Rebuilding the Chapter, as with the Celestial Lions, is a valid option, granted that there is enough geneseed to call upon and enough supplies to re-arm the new warriors; something a Founding Chapter (or a sufficiently powerful Second Founding Chapter, like the Black Templars) could easily supply.

Then again, this option is only open to those with a 'known' Founding Chapter, which a number of Chapters don't have. The relationship to their 'parent' Chapter is also crucial here; a Codex-divergent Chapter might not get as much support from their Ultramarines 'parent' as a more Codex-compliant Chapter might receive.

Employment by other organisations isn't too much a stretch of the imagination; it's easy to imagine an Inquisitor having a Marine or two 'on loan' to conduct operations in hazardous situations, or a Rogue Trader who takes the warriors in in honor of ancient alliances between the Chapter and the Rogue Trader's family.

As for the Founding Chapter temporarily absorbing them into their command structure, I think that's a reasonable suggestion. That way, they can retain their Chapter's honour without having to take up another Chapter's colours.

Just as a clarification, when people talk about using the Deathwatch to pick up the few survivors of a dead chapter, they're referring to Black Shields. The act of permanently severing a marine from his chapter and from any history he had before becoming a Black Shield. These certainly don't need to be specialists. Technically, none of the Deathwatch need to be specialists as that kind of training is provided by the Deathwatch itself, which has extensive independent facilities across the galaxy.

Oh. Well, sh*t. I didn't know that I was under the impression they hand-picked dudes who show great skill with a certain type of weapon or who have bucketloads of experience against a certain type of Xenos... guess my Deathwatch fluff is rusty

Anyways, I can't imagine a bunch of surviving Marines would be too happy about having their heraldry completely removed to become a Black Shield; and I thought Black Shields were Marines who wanted to hide their origins from the other Marines out of shame/penance/some other reason? Or am I wrong in that as well?

jareddm wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

jareddm wrote:

But it doesn't show intent. It shows intent to return a marine to his chapter that's still around. It does not show stripping a marine of their old chapter's colors and heraldry to make them one of your own.

As for the lost legion absorption, when the author of said rumor has flat out said that it's false, it's false. Let it die. We already see divergence when looking at various chapters when they were still part of the Ultramarine legion during the Great Crusade simply based on the battles they fought and the kinds of individuals they recruited. Lost Legion geneseed is not necessary.

Sorry bud, but I'm gonna need proof of that, I've never heard of the author saying that, I freely admit what I'm saying is conjecture, based on the novels, but what your saying needs a citation or its just hear say (like the apocryphal fantasy and 40k universe not being connected fella from GW) and I'll just dismiss it as head canon like my own conjecture.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287453-the-traitor-primarch-and-the-missing-legions/?p=3620537
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/211829-ultramarines-references-in-the-horus-heresy-series/page-2#entry2526272
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?366392-Were-the-remnants-of-the-two-lost-legions-(II-and-XIX)-folded-into-the-Ultramarines&p=6666435&viewfull=1#post6666435

How's that?

Thanks, but... He doesn't say it's false, he reinforces it's a rumour, conjecture, pretty much exactly what I said, and as much as he may regret adding it to the Canon, it's In there now, and while he says it's just a throw away thing and not a "hint" or something, it is part of the 30k universe now and should be considered as such, if anything (no offence to adb) he should have thought it out better.

It's like rr martin saying "ah, no, Jofrey is alive and well" but never actually writing him back into the universe or going back and editing the book, it's out there now and part of the universe.

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
Oh. Well, sh*t. I didn't know that I was under the impression they hand-picked dudes who show great skill with a certain type of weapon or who have bucketloads of experience against a certain type of Xenos... guess my Deathwatch fluff is rusty

Anyways, I can't imagine a bunch of surviving Marines would be too happy about having their heraldry completely removed to become a Black Shield; and I thought Black Shields were Marines who wanted to hide their origins from the other Marines out of shame/penance/some other reason? Or am I wrong in that as well?

It's cool. Those kinds of skills are what Deathwatch marines bring back to their chapter after their service to the Deathwatch is concluded. As for becoming a Black Shield, well, many marines would see being the only survivor of their chapter as something to be extremely ashamed of.

 Formosa wrote:
Thanks, but... He doesn't say it's false, he reinforces it's a rumour, conjecture, pretty much exactly what I said, and as much as he may regret adding it to the Canon, it's In there now, and while he says it's just a throw away thing and not a "hint" or something, it is part of the 30k universe now and should be considered as such, if anything (no offence to adb) he should have thought it out better.

It's like rr martin saying "ah, no, Jofrey is alive and well" but never actually writing him back into the universe or going back and editing the book, it's out there now and part of the universe.

Last line of the first link, "It's a hugely unlikely possibility offered by an uninformed character (whose own brothers discredit it), which all previous lore already states isn't true." He's saying that other lore already tells us that the reason the Ultramarines were as large as they are was because of their efficient recruiting practices. That whatever the two Word Bearers are saying, has already been disproven.

"It's a hugely unlikely possibility offered by an uninformed character (whose own brothers discredit it), which all previous lore already states isn't true."

Hugely unlikely, doesn't mean untrue, sure uninformed but it wasn't written like that, adb has said this after the fact and it has changed your opinion of the statement, the vast majority of people interpret it in the same way, as a true statement but unprovable, hence why I said that he should have thought it through before writing it.

And all previous lore? Hh lore was very sparse until the novels, so there isn't any "previous lore" to go off really.

We're told the Ultramarines have efficient recruiting processes, that's true, in a later book in the series we see that in action, then book v fw book explains it in more depth, by your reasoning the old lore (before the fluff is filled out) of Ultramar being a few planets and not 500 world's should be correct, as the 500 worlds contradicts all the older fluff and is only mentioned a few times.

The long and short of what I'm saying is, what is mentioned in first heretic is part of the fluff, and as much as adb may regret putting it there, it's there now, and can be used as a foundation for further conjecture, not facts, just conjecture, whatever adb intended when writing it is now totally irrelevant, it's out there, he can clarify it after the fact and that's fine, but it's still there.

So back to your original statement "let it die", no, because until it's edited out or changed, it won't go away, no matter what anyone says.

Just another point to note, I'm quite certain that one of the reasons that a 'tithe' of the gene seed is required to be given by chapters is so it can 'safeguard' a chapters legacy.

Whilst they won't rebuild a totally wiped out chapter, they would release some gene seed so that a chapter can rebuild after taking significant losses, only to speed up the process. Due to the unique way that gene seed is created inside a marine, doubling a chapters available geneseed to rebuild from lets say as little as 20, would increase the speed of the rebuild by 2.

Providing that all the new recruits come off without a hitch that is.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Just another point to note, I'm quite certain that one of the reasons that a 'tithe' of the gene seed is required to be given by chapters is so it can 'safeguard' a chapters legacy.

Whilst they won't rebuild a totally wiped out chapter, they would release some gene seed so that a chapter can rebuild after taking significant losses, only to speed up the process. Due to the unique way that gene seed is created inside a marine, doubling a chapters available geneseed to rebuild from lets say as little as 20, would increase the speed of the rebuild by 2.

Providing that all the new recruits come off without a hitch that is.

Isn't there references to several chapters being wiped out but having the same name but not actually being the same chapter, is that what your talking about?

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
Oh. Well, sh*t. I didn't know that I was under the impression they hand-picked dudes who show great skill with a certain type of weapon or who have bucketloads of experience against a certain type of Xenos... guess my Deathwatch fluff is rusty

Anyways, I can't imagine a bunch of surviving Marines would be too happy about having their heraldry completely removed to become a Black Shield; and I thought Black Shields were Marines who wanted to hide their origins from the other Marines out of shame/penance/some other reason? Or am I wrong in that as well?

Works more in reverse. The DW accepts whatever Marines are sent from a Chapter (which, the DW being what it is, the Marines a Chapter sends are going to be some of the best, it's an honor to be called by the Deathwatch). Those Marines are further trained by the DW, and then gain a bunch of experience and knowledge in fighting various Xenos (or perhaps a specific type of Xeno) in their tour of duty with the DW, returning to their Chapter at the end of that term with their new knowledge and, perhaps more importantly, bonds of service and knowledge of other Chapters.

Thanks for clearing that up, Psiensis

I hadn't taken the gene-seed tithe into account, good point endlesswaltz. With the gene-seed storage intact, rebuilding a Chapter would be just a matter of time, given that the gene-seed storage hasn't been looted by CSM or lost somewhere in the paperwork by the Administratum

Also, as a more general note, let's not derail the thread with talk about the Missing Legions, shall we? There's more than enough places to discuss them here on Dakka, and whatever happened to them has little to do with the subject of this thread.

Jareddm did pique my interest with this statement though:

jareddm wrote:


But it doesn't show intent. It shows intent to return a marine to his chapter that's still around. It does not show stripping a marine of their old chapter's colors and heraldry to make them one of your own.

Now, the only time I can think of that happening is the Horus Heresy itself, where a couple of Loyalists from the Traitor Legions were 'adopted' by other Legions (I believe the Silver Skulls are rumoured to have come about that way), but that makes me wonder; could that still happen in the 41st millenium?

For example, let's say Space Marine Chapter C ends up stepping on the Inquisition's toes which earns them the 'Renegade' stamp and a visit from the Exterminatus fleet. Now, Chapter D, Founding Chapter of Chapter C, thinks the Inquisition is in the wrong, but is in no place to intervene. So they decide to help the few remaining members of Chapter C 'disappear' by absorbing them into their own Chapter. The rest of the Chapter is Exterminatus'd, but at least a select few can carry on the Chapter's name.

Would that be a plausible scenario? It has been pointed out most Marines would prefer death before such dishonour, but let's imagine these Marines are a bit more sensible than your average superhuman soldier.

Such Marines would probably end up as Blackshields in the DW. Who those Marines are, or where they come from, is known only to the "inner circle" of the Deathwatch, and is not spoken of to anyone.

Whether they're the "sole survivors" of a destroyed Chapter, repentant Traitor Marines, Marines whose parent Chapters turned renegade or something else entirely are all possibilities, but it's never made public knowledge, not even to the rest of the Deathwatch.

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:

For example, let's say Space Marine Chapter C ends up stepping on the Inquisition's toes which earns them the 'Renegade' stamp and a visit from the Exterminatus fleet. Now, Chapter D, Founding Chapter of Chapter C, thinks the Inquisition is in the wrong, but is in no place to intervene. So they decide to help the few remaining members of Chapter C 'disappear' by absorbing them into their own Chapter. The rest of the Chapter is Exterminatus'd, but at least a select few can carry on the Chapter's name.

Would that be a plausible scenario? It has been pointed out most Marines would prefer death before such dishonour, but let's imagine these Marines are a bit more sensible than your average superhuman soldier.

Pretty much exactly what the Astral Claws did for the Tiger Claws. The Tiger Claws even requested to make use of their geneseed tithe to rebuild themselves and it was denied. While the absorption of the Tiger Claws wasn't what triggered the Badab War, once it was discovered that the Tiger Claws had been absorbed, it was all the evidence needed that the Astral Claws would receive no mercy, unlike their allies.

Edit: I should add, that in your example, Chapter D is guilty of harboring fugitives, certainly a crime in and of itself.

Isn't Marines being absorbed into other Chapters of a similar lineage a pretty well-established bit of fluff?

Not really, no. Marines being descended *from* other Chapters is how Successors happen, but I can't think of a time where a First Founding Chapter re-absorbed one of its Successors.

We should Email FW/GW over this.

I imagine some of the... uh... "nicer" chapters would help rebuild the nearly depleted chapter's numbers, like the Black Templars that helped the Celestial Lions. Or maybe some of the chapters that are close to their successors, like the Imperial Fists and their successors, may do something similar.

If a Chapter can rebuild, it attempts to.
However, with a lack of gene-seed, Apothecaries, resources or just simply men, it would be most likely that becoming a Blackshield is the most likely alternative. That way, their talents as an Astartes can be used for the greater good of the Imperium without interfering with another Chapter's recruitment and promotion chains.

Plus the Blackshield can be used in more dangerous missions than regular Deathwatch marines as no-one would really miss the Blackshield.

Space Marine Chapter Losses to date: 13 lost in the Warp, 21 Irrecoverable battle losses, 9 Geneseed failure, 4 Inquisitorial purges, 16 Other circumstances.

Codex: Space Marines (3rd Edition) pg. 47

No one seems to be bringing up the Rogue Traders. As these guys go about bringing the light of the Imperium to far-flung planets they are often accompanied by a retinue of Veteran Space Marines, the last men standing of depleted chapters. Being absorbed into other chapters is something that could happen but it would depend on the chapters involved.
I don't see joining the Deathwatch as a viable option: the Deathwatch only take the very best, not merely survivors.

Ezra, you're not thinking of creating a SM-themed remnants force are you? Regardless of the fluff I think you should go right ahead and do it.
I think whether a space marine can be adopted all depends, firstly on the size of his first-founding chapter, (if he was a first-founding marine and they all got nommed he'd be in some pretty serious trouble!) It would also depend on the respectability of the successor chapter he was part of. If they have a poor reputation, one of mutation, deviancy and expressing a desire to dance rather than conquer the galaxy, then they probably wouldn't be accepted back in. For example, the Rainbow Warriors.
I think such space marines would embark on a personal crusade to die fighting, rather than rejoin a larger chapter.
Anyways, I digres: Remnant Space Marines, DO IT!!!!

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
Now, the only time I can think of that happening is the Horus Heresy itself, where a couple of Loyalists from the Traitor Legions were 'adopted' by other Legions (I believe the Silver Skulls are rumoured to have come about that way), but that makes me wonder; could that still happen in the 41st millenium?

For example, let's say Space Marine Chapter C ends up stepping on the Inquisition's toes which earns them the 'Renegade' stamp and a visit from the Exterminatus fleet. Now, Chapter D, Founding Chapter of Chapter C, thinks the Inquisition is in the wrong, but is in no place to intervene. So they decide to help the few remaining members of Chapter C 'disappear' by absorbing them into their own Chapter. The rest of the Chapter is Exterminatus'd, but at least a select few can carry on the Chapter's name.

Would that be a plausible scenario? It has been pointed out most Marines would prefer death before such dishonour, but let's imagine these Marines are a bit more sensible than your average superhuman soldier.

The Soul Drinkers and Imperial Fists came close to what you've outlined.

The Soul Drinkers were declared heretical, because, let's face it, when your chapter master's lower half is a giant spider, there aren't a great many other outcomes. I'm a little hazy on how the sixth book ended, but the trial of the remaining Soul Drinkers took place on an ImpFist fortress. It all went pear-shaped and the remaining Soul Drinkers willingly walked into a Warp rift to fight the demons on the other side rather than fight to clear their name or chapter even though the ImpFists offered their help. When all was said and done, and the Inquisition had purged all records of the Soul Drinkers' existence, the ImpFists defied the Inquisition's order and carved into the fortress walls among the names of the fallen ImpFists were the names of the Soul Drinkers.

Isn't there a book where the Blood Angels requested a tithe of Marines from it's successors to rebuild itself after an invasion? The one where Gabriel Seth almost dooms the Blood Angels to being itself split among the successors instead.

It's worth noting that for the Soul Drinkers that everybody assumed that they were a successor chapter of the Imperial Fists



The Blood Angel bit was due to the chapter civil war when Chaos devotees managed to force a mutation on one of the Blood Angels to give him wings and make him think he was truly Sanguinius reborn.

Blood Angels received recruits who didn't have implants yet. Their problem was that their normal process of finding candidates would have been too slow to rebuild in any useful amount of time.



It's impossible for this to happen because the surviving marine would be biologically not a member of the adopting chapter. Even though the Adeptus Mechanicus make a new chapter using gene seed tithed by, for example, the Ultramarines, the gene seed tithed by the new chapter would be a distinct and different thing from Ultramarines gene seed. Only the Second Founding and the Sons of Medusa have marines that were part of other chapters.

 Ketara wrote:

Space Marine Chapter Losses to date: 13 lost in the Warp, 21 Irrecoverable battle losses, 9 Geneseed failure, 4 Inquisitorial purges, 16 Other circumstances.

Codex: Space Marines (3rd Edition) pg. 47

That is... A fairly low failure rate, honestly, considering it's been ten thousand years.

It also doesn't match with the Abyssal Crusade that introduced far more fallen chapters.

Any list like that is always going to have chunks missing due to the nature of getting information across the imperium, it's to inefficient

jareddm wrote:
It also doesn't match with the Abyssal Crusade that introduced far more fallen chapters.

It's a total of 63 chapters lost. Of those, less than thirty perished were in the Abyssal Crusade. As most of them ended up in different ways (some ended up in Commoragh for example, others like the Vorpal Swords survived), it is not impossible that the Inquisition 3000 years later (which is the time gap between the two) might categorise their eventual fate differently.

So I fail to see the fluff contradiction.

63/1000 isn't exactly insignificant, although I'm fairly certain the actual number is much higher, I mean dont forget the Abyssal Crusade alone saw the end of what, 30 chapters? Also remember, 3rd edition wasn't quite yet the peak of Grimdark, I'm sure if GW were to revist that bit they would increase the number quite a bit.

In any case, given the scenario posited, wherein all but 2-3 marines from a chapter are destroyed, I would imagine one of the following outcomes:

-The Inquisition finds their lack of faith in the Emperor, evidenced by their almost total annihilation, disturbing, and sentences the remaining Marines to death.
-The Inquisition finds their lack of faith in the Emperor, evidenced by their almost total annihilation, disturbing, and sentences the remaining Marines to a penitent crusade, wherein they almost assuredly will be destroyed in the process.
-They dial back to Mars for their geneseed stores and spend a few hundred years back at base rebuilding their strength.
-They are effectively destroyed as an organized fighting force but continue on for some time doing nothing consequential until they are forgotten by time and history.
-The scattered survivors never manage to regroup and end up as ronin/errant knights wandering about serving as retinues, aids, and advisers to other organizations (any conflict that inflicts such horrendous casualties on a chapter of marines will likely also result in the loss of their fleet and transport vehicle, and quite possibly there homeworld, meaning that what survivors they may be may not be able to ever regroup with one another, or are stuck hitching a ride on with others as they go about their journeys home) until slowly, one by one, they all die out (or happen to find regroup years later and begin the long laborious rebuild process).