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Wales: Where the Men are Men and the sheep are Scared.
Gitzbitah wrote: Before you discard everything that isn't modern medicine, please recall that these are all things that were at one time very much endorsed by modern medicine. What will our children look back at in horror at our barbaric ways?
Except we now have medical trials, Peer Review and a host of things in place to ensure that things are at least somewhat verified. Not saying for a second that medical science is infallible and that because someone is unproven now it wont be proven in the future. But as it stands chiropractic has been tested repeatedly and has failed those tests repeatedly. That said Chiropractic has been shown to give some relief for lower back pain. It doesn't fix anything in regards to lower back pain but gives some relief.
Also many of the claims of misalignment of the spine that chiropractors claim are there and can be fixed is something only they can seem to see and when the same x ray is shown to a doctor they will not see a misaligned spine at all.
Also comparing modern medicine to the medicine of 100+ years ago is utterly insane. Doctors of hundreds of years ago have far more similarities with chiropractors than they do with modern doctors as they too did not apply the scientific method and controlled trials to what they did.
For anyone who has an interest in the subject I recommend too fantastic books by Ben Goldacre
Bad Science (A look into the poor and misleading supposed science and claims of effectiveness behind many alternative therapies.)
Bad Phara (A look into the poor and misleading reporting of trails and the underhanded tactics often used by pharmaceutical companies)
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/09/28 07:41:11
I got into a car wreck some years back, I blacked out from the force of the impact (the other vehicle collided with mine at the front left of the car, completely ruining my car's engine).
Immediately after the accident I was doing okay. But somehow I got poor posture or something and I began to deteriorate about a month after the accident. It was mostly one leg going crazy with nerve pain. Eventually I couldn't so much as jog, and it was difficult to find a comfortable position to sit in.
My insurance got me about four months of bi to tri weekly sessions at a chiropractor for $150. Stuff happened, and I got better. (It was over the course of two months and the exercises they introduced me to might have been all I needed).
I stopped going (and doing the exercises) as soon as I felt relief. A month later my symptoms start coming back, and I go back to the chiropractor.
I deteriorate for about five weeks, getting worse and worse. I get cold sweats, become increasingly irritable and fidgety, and notice my heart rate going up. It turns out my thyroid was going hyperactive exasperating my leg's sensitivity to pain. I learned this from my general practitioner doctor, while the chiropractors I had been seeing for more than a month didn't offer me any advice or alternative treatments as I told them I was not getting better. Three weeks after I stopped going, they did a seminar on thyroid health and how to spot when it is acting up.
I went to a second chiropractor, which offered it's services to me for free, and they did good work and have helped out a lot, and don't try and tell me this is the be all, end all of health service. So I won't say chiropractic care has no use, just that the guys who think it can solve anything might not be worth your time even for their area of expertise.
paulson games wrote: I've always been a bit puzzled about people calling it quackery, if you feel that's it's BS have you ever personally been to a chiropractor due to pain?
... ... .
I don't know about chiropractic, but it's possible to know if a treatment is quackery without personally experiencing it by referring to medical research. For example the German government did a huge study into acupuncture that found it was only of any value due to placebo effect.
The placebo effect of course is well known and is used by doctors, so it should not be dismissed out of hand even though the mystical basis for the treatment is rubbish.
The OP is in the UK so can access the NHS for medical treatment for free. The NHS considers Chiropractic to be a 'complementary' treatment, which is not usually available from the NHS.
Chiropractic seems to me like a kind of massage or perhaps related to pilates or Alexander technique, a musculo-skeletal system of treatment or exercise. Any of these systems can cause damage if done wrongly. There is also the danger that you are paying for a treatment and denying yourself a conventional treatment that has a better chance of success. Like the people who practice Breatharianism rather than get surgery for cancer.
That said, back pain is notoriously difficult to treat by conventional medicine.
Vash108 wrote: You don't want to go to a Chiropractor, you want to go to an actual Physical Therapist.
This is it. You can also find an old school Doctor of Osteopathy if you want a more holistic, musculoskeletal based approach to health, while still being treated by a modern, licensed physician.
I've never seen a chiropractor personally, but I work in disability law, and among my colleagues, chiro generally seen as a joke. It's not just that there are plenty of bad apples in the field, but that any benefits they provide can be had in better ways from real medical providers.
Chiropractic offers two big advantages: it's cheap, and it usually offers immediate relief.
Wales: Where the Men are Men and the sheep are Scared.
Worth pointing out that chiropractic being cheap very much depends on where you live. In the usa it night be cheap but in places with nationalized medicine like the uk it's much more expensive than seeing a real doctor.
Yeah chiro problems go further than being a few bad apples the core of their practice is not based on science. Also even when they changed the underlying theory of chiropractic away from subluxation theory the actually techniques remained unchanged.
Chiropractic controversy and criticism From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Throughout its history chiropractic has been the subject of internal and external controversy and criticism.[1][2] According to magnetic healer Daniel D. Palmer, the founder of chiropractic, "vertebral subluxation" was the sole cause of all diseases and manipulation was the cure for all diseases of the human race.[3] A 2003 profession-wide survey found "most chiropractors (whether "straights" or "mixers") still hold views of Innate and of the cause and cure of disease (not just back pain) consistent with those of the Palmers."[4] A critical evaluation stated "Chiropractic is rooted in mystical concepts. This led to an internal conflict within the chiropractic profession, which continues today."[3] Chiropractors, including D.D. Palmer, were jailed for practicing medicine without a license.[3] D.D. Palmer considered establishing chiropractic as a religion to resolve this problem.[5] For most of its existence, chiropractic has battled with mainstream medicine, sustained by antiscientific and pseudoscientific ideas such as subluxation.[6] Chiropractic has been controversial, though to a lesser extent than in past years.[7]
Chiropractic researchers have documented that fraud, abuse and quackery are more prevalent in chiropractic than in other health care professions.[8] Unsubstantiated claims about the efficacy of chiropractic have continued to be made by individual chiropractors and chiropractic associations.[3] The core concept of traditional chiropractic, vertebral subluxation, is not based on sound science.[3] Collectively, systematic reviews have not demonstrated that spinal manipulation, the main treatment method employed by chiropractors, was effective for any medical condition, with the possible exception of treatment for back pain.[3] Although rare,[9] spinal manipulation, particularly of the upper spine, can also result in complications that can lead to permanent disability or death; these can occur in adults[10] and children.[11]
In 2008, Simon Singh was sued for libel by the British Chiropractic Association (BCA) for criticizing their activities in a column in The Guardian.[12] A preliminary hearing took place at the Royal Courts of Justice in front of judge David Eady. The judge held that merely using the phrase "happily promotes bogus treatments" meant that he was stating, as a matter of fact, that the British Chiropractic Association was being consciously dishonest in promoting chiropractic for treating the children's ailments in question.[13] An editorial in Nature has suggested that the BCA may be trying to suppress debate and that this use of British libel law is a burden on the right to freedom of expression, which is protected by the European Convention on Human Rights.[14] The libel case ended with the BCA withdrawing its suit in 2010.[15][16]
Chiropractors historically were strongly opposed to vaccination based on their belief that all diseases were traceable to causes in the spine, and therefore could not be affected by vaccines.[17] Some chiropractors continue to be opposed to vaccination.[18] Early opposition to water fluoridation included chiropractors in the U.S. Some chiropractors opposed water fluoridation as being incompatible with chiropractic philosophy and an infringement of personal freedom. Recently, other chiropractors have actively promoted fluoridation, and several chiropractic organizations have endorsed scientific principles of public health.
It is great for back, or joint issues. Other issues: no.
jasper76 wrote: Does it have any value for short term pain relief, like massage does?
If it does, it'd be through the placebo effect. If you are off your rocker to go to a chiropractor, be aware of the risks (blood clots, stroke, etc, etc)
Incorrect. If you have damaged joints or back, they can be very helpful. I had a messed up back from an auto wreck. It would not have improved without the chiro and I'd be popping percocet like candy.
Often chiros will be recommended by specialists as part of the overall treatment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/28 17:26:43
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Kilkrazy wrote: There is also the danger that you are paying for a treatment and denying yourself a conventional treatment that has a better chance of success.
I wound up at a chiropractor for the first time at age 10, after doctors repeatedly insisted there was nothing wrong (because, you know, back pain in a 10-year-old is perfectly normal!)
I kept going to chiropractors because they actually treated the pain, whereas the spinal specialist who looked at my scoliosis and first declared that it wouldn't get worse, and then when it got worse declared that it wasn't a problem as 'scoliosis is a non-painful condition' anyway...
The only 'conventional treatment' I was ever offered was the opportunity to take some seriously fethed-up medication for the rest of my life. Chiropractic treatment has kept me functional without the drugs.
Kilkrazy wrote: There is also the danger that you are paying for a treatment and denying yourself a conventional treatment that has a better chance of success.
I wound up at a chiropractor for the first time at age 10, after doctors repeatedly insisted there was nothing wrong (because, you know, back pain in a 10-year-old is perfectly normal!)
I kept going to chiropractors because they actually treated the pain, whereas the spinal specialist who looked at my scoliosis and first declared that it wouldn't get worse, and then when it got worse declared that it wasn't a problem as 'scoliosis is a non-painful condition' anyway...
The only 'conventional treatment' I was ever offered was the opportunity to take some seriously fethed-up medication for the rest of my life. Chiropractic treatment has kept me functional without the drugs.
Indeed. Its like a lot of things, you explore it along with the full panopoly of curatives. Now I am not going to go there for the flu, but for a pressed nerve-sure. That doesn't mean you don't check out the doc (assuming you're not referred from a doc, an ER doc suggested I check out a chiro first based on what was hurting).
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
I think it's quite well established quackery. Although sometimes I know I would give anything to have someone able to pop my back or shoulders. However, in the long term, I don't think popping joins is especially good for them, and might actually stretch the ligaments more, which results in more pain and need for popping.
The thing to be really careful about is letting chiropractors play with your neck. Over extending the neck can tear blood vessels in the spine and can lead to a stroke. Plenty of people have been left paralysed and disabled after a trip to the chiropractor.
My mom absolutely swears by chiro, by the way. I myself went to a physical therapist instead of a chiro (my doctor said either or), and PT did very little for me for my back pain, so... I guess it evens out.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Chiro is legit, but then I have a girlfriend (and her mother) who both have hyper mobility syndrome so their joints/bones tend to go out of alignment all the time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/28 21:31:42
My mom dragged me to an osteopath once (pretty similar to a chiropractor as far as I can tell). As usual, I was extremely skeptical, but it did actually help. But then again, so does a good massage at the banya.
I don't think I know enough about these things to make a good judgement on them. But, as long as people benefit from I have no problem calling it legit.
LordofHats wrote: It has legitimate uses, but also a mountain of pseudo-scientific BS that some people sometimes get scammed into pay for. That's my understanding anyway.
Yeah, there is stuff there that works. But a lot of chiro has surrounded itself in a whole lot of new age bs.
I've had two experiences in chiro. The first was my sister, who fell of a horse when was about 13 or 14. Had ongoing problems, but a course of treatment with a chiro helped her a lot. I had to go with her visits, and that clinic was no different to a doctor's clinic, basically. Years later when my baby was born she barely turned her neck to the left, and we were recommended to use chiro. The chiro worked with her in some basic exercises and that was fine. But he also tried to sell us a bunch of homeopathic nonsense, and talked through some gibberish that was about one step removed from different coloured auras.
My wife bought some of the homeopathic stuff, and insists to this day that it helped with baby's reflux. Whatever.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/30 04:14:29
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
I went to my GP with severe shoulder pain. After looking at some X-rays, he told me to take 8 Advil per day. Went to the chiropractor after it wasn't getting any better. He said the shoulder muscle above my rotator cuff was weak. Handed me a rubber band thing, showed me some exercises to do with it. Bam, a week later, no pain. Quackery or not, it worked for my problem.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/30 04:14:28
LordofHats wrote: It has legitimate uses, but also a mountain of pseudo-scientific BS that some people sometimes get scammed into pay for. That's my understanding anyway.
Yeah, there is stuff there that works. But a lot of chiro has surrounded itself in a whole lot of new age bs.
I've had two experiences in chiro. The first was my sister, who fell of a horse when was about 13 or 14. Had ongoing problems, but a course of treatment with a chiro helped her a lot. I had to go with her visits, and that clinic was no different to a doctor's clinic, basically. Years later when my baby was born she barely turned her neck to the left, and we were recommended to use chiro. The chiro worked with her in some basic exercises and that was fine. But he also tried to sell us a bunch of homeopathic nonsense, and talked through some gibberish that was about one step removed from different coloured auras.
My wife bought some of the homeopathic stuff, and insists to this day that it helped with baby's reflux. Whatever.
I've heard of that. My chiro is connected to the local sports teams and is very normal.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
