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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/10/06 19:12:21
Subject: DnD Paladins
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Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh
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Ensis Ferrae wrote: timetowaste85 wrote:I hate Paladins. I got kicked out of the first (and only) D&D group I tried to join with my buddies in college because I offended the paladin player by being a chaotic neutral barbarian and tossed an informant off a building once he gave me all the information I had. The paladin ordered the city guard to torch the entire town to kill me off, then halted the game and the player flipped out on me for "not taking it seriously". I haven't met anyone since who told me I was wrong, given my character class. A pox on Paladins!! 
A "good" GM would've stopped that gak right there... probably made the Paladin roll some kind of check to see if he knew or saw what you did, then made you roll a bluff check to lie about what happened when the paladin wonders where the prisoner is.
My GM (aka, my roommate) said maybe it was better if I just quit. I don't hold a grudge. It just left a bad taste in my mouth towards the game. Like I said, I quite literally haven't had anyone tell me I was playing incorrectly. Except that one Paladin player. But since it and magic were the only games he played, while I did tons of other games with the group, they asked me to bow out. Even though the rest of the group agreed with me.
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Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/10/06 19:24:50
Subject: DnD Paladins
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The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar
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You may have been in the right, but then, so was the paladin. CN guys can toss people they dislike off of buildings. Totally in character for a lot of them. Paladin finds out you did it? He probably should probably call you out for that; in most cases it qualifies as casual murder, generally frowned upon while in town not in self defense.
If he saw you do it in character, expect a show down, where one of you might not walk away from it.
If he was acting on out of character knowledge, he needs to put a lid on it until he witnesses you cross the line.
But if you were joining an established game, your actions, while justified in character, might have been very disruptive to the party and the game over all and the DM might not want to watch his campaign disintegrate into inter-party conflict. Thus the boot.
One problem with paladins in general is the inflexible code of conduct. If the group is not willing to at least accommodate them, things can get ugly.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/10/06 19:43:19
Subject: DnD Paladins
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Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh
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Nevelon wrote:You may have been in the right, but then, so was the paladin. CN guys can toss people they dislike off of buildings. Totally in character for a lot of them. Paladin finds out you did it? He probably should probably call you out for that; in most cases it qualifies as casual murder, generally frowned upon while in town not in self defense.
If he saw you do it in character, expect a show down, where one of you might not walk away from it.
If he was acting on out of character knowledge, he needs to put a lid on it until he witnesses you cross the line.
But if you were joining an established game, your actions, while justified in character, might have been very disruptive to the party and the game over all and the DM might not want to watch his campaign disintegrate into inter-party conflict. Thus the boot.
One problem with paladins in general is the inflexible code of conduct. If the group is not willing to at least accommodate them, things can get ugly.
Does pre-meditated self defense count?
After all, informant could beat us to the bad guy and warn him. I prevented that from happening. Actually, the group was mostly chill and goofed off a bit. When a guy rolled a crit shooting at the informant with a bow while trying to escape, it was decided that it gave him a Prince Albert. Not pleasant. It was mostly for the guys to goof off and have fun. The paladin saw me toss the guy off a building. And actually, he got mad but bit his tongue there. He flipped out when we went to the villain's house and I kicked the door down (villain had a wooden door). The kicking the door in, followed by a murder was what set him off. I guess he really liked doors.
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Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/10/06 19:50:13
Subject: DnD Paladins
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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timetowaste85 wrote: Nevelon wrote:You may have been in the right, but then, so was the paladin. CN guys can toss people they dislike off of buildings. Totally in character for a lot of them. Paladin finds out you did it? He probably should probably call you out for that; in most cases it qualifies as casual murder, generally frowned upon while in town not in self defense.
If he saw you do it in character, expect a show down, where one of you might not walk away from it.
If he was acting on out of character knowledge, he needs to put a lid on it until he witnesses you cross the line.
But if you were joining an established game, your actions, while justified in character, might have been very disruptive to the party and the game over all and the DM might not want to watch his campaign disintegrate into inter-party conflict. Thus the boot.
One problem with paladins in general is the inflexible code of conduct. If the group is not willing to at least accommodate them, things can get ugly.
Does pre-meditated self defense count?
After all, informant could beat us to the bad guy and warn him. I prevented that from happening. Actually, the group was mostly chill and goofed off a bit. When a guy rolled a crit shooting at the informant with a bow while trying to escape, it was decided that it gave him a Prince Albert. Not pleasant. It was mostly for the guys to goof off and have fun. The paladin saw me toss the guy off a building. And actually, he got mad but bit his tongue there. He flipped out when we went to the villain's house and I kicked the door down (villain had a wooden door). The kicking the door in, followed by a murder was what set him off. I guess he really liked doors.
If anything, the party's druid (if there was one) should be pissed about the door.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/10/06 20:17:20
Subject: DnD Paladins
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The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar
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timetowaste85 wrote:
Does pre-meditated self defense count?
After all, informant could beat us to the bad guy and warn him. I prevented that from happening. Actually, the group was mostly chill and goofed off a bit. When a guy rolled a crit shooting at the informant with a bow while trying to escape, it was decided that it gave him a Prince Albert. Not pleasant. It was mostly for the guys to goof off and have fun. The paladin saw me toss the guy off a building. And actually, he got mad but bit his tongue there. He flipped out when we went to the villain's house and I kicked the door down (villain had a wooden door). The kicking the door in, followed by a murder was what set him off. I guess he really liked doors.
A lot depends on the tone of the game, the players, the characters, and the DM. Alignments, law, “right” good/evil are often interpreted in different ways. After all, your classic adventuring party are a bunch of violent murder hobos who kick in people’s doors and take their stuff, just because they are green/scaly/different. YMMV.
I’ve had game where a lawful party member put his foot down and stopped us from kicking a door in on someone we knew was evil and plotting to destroy the city, but we didn’t have any proof/evidence. The last words of dying goblins don’t hold up in court particularly well, and he didn’t want to set the precedent of us doing home invasions on nobles just because we though they were up to no good.
Of course, that was the same game he earlier told me to stab a prisoner to try to scare some information out of them, not thinking I would. Boy was he surprised. If you want to play good cop/bad cop, make sure you set the ground rules before you tell the CN rouge to knife someone.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/10/06 22:29:04
Subject: DnD Paladins
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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timetowaste85 wrote:I hate Paladins. I got kicked out of the first (and only) D&D group I tried to join with my buddies in college because I offended the paladin player by being a chaotic neutral barbarian and tossed an informant off a building once he gave me all the information I had. The paladin ordered the city guard to torch the entire town to kill me off, then halted the game and the player flipped out on me for "not taking it seriously". I haven't met anyone since who told me I was wrong, given my character class. A pox on Paladins!! 
That sort of play style is... not for every table. Murder doesn't usually fly in my games paladin or no. Some folks just don't want to deal with that gak at the gaming table.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/10/06 22:34:01
Subject: DnD Paladins
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Honestly, there's no judging a specific group dynamic without being part of the group. A lot of these kind of stories, the part that was relevant to the guy who flipped out never gets told -- not out of malice, mind, but sometimes just because the guy telling the story honestly did not get what happened.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/10/06 22:49:07
Subject: DnD Paladins
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Manchu wrote:Honestly, there's no judging a specific group dynamic without being part of the group. A lot of these kind of stories, the part that was relevant to the guy who flipped out never gets told -- not out of malice, mind, but sometimes just because the guy telling the story honestly did not get what happened.
Agreed.... However, group dynamics being what they are, when the wizard PC consistently makes claim to "running away to avoid fighting" but doesn't, makes that claim again, and actually does it... hilariously bad fights usually happen
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/10/06 23:45:41
Subject: DnD Paladins
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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timetowaste85 stops crimes before they happen! WITCH!
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/10/07 04:24:12
Subject: DnD Paladins
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Combat Jumping Ragik
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No, a pre-cog. Minority Report, D&D style.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/10/07 14:01:36
Subject: DnD Paladins
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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timetowaste85 wrote:I hate Paladins.
>snip<
The paladin ordered the city guard to torch the entire town to kill me off, then halted the game and the player flipped out on me for "not taking it seriously". I haven't met anyone since who told me I was wrong, given my character class. A pox on Paladins!! 
Aaaaand Paladin is now a fancy fighter.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/10/07 14:47:06
Subject: DnD Paladins
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Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh
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streamdragon wrote: timetowaste85 wrote:I hate Paladins.
>snip<
The paladin ordered the city guard to torch the entire town to kill me off, then halted the game and the player flipped out on me for "not taking it seriously". I haven't met anyone since who told me I was wrong, given my character class. A pox on Paladins!! 
Aaaaand Paladin is now a fancy fighter.
I wish I was making this up. I'm straight up telling the truth, no fabrication. Awful, right?
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Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/10/08 13:47:38
Subject: DnD Paladins
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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Inter player conflict usually ends badly for social games. It's one of the reasons it's so important to have the GM as a moderator.
Throwing an informant to his death seems a bit CE off hand, but it depends a lot on the specifics. Fearing that he may run to the bad guy might justify it for a neutral type. Certainly a paladin might take issue with it, but if he was a murderous servant of evil, maybe not so much. Certainly burning a town down seems rather inappropriate. And the GM should have taken steps to moderate the issue.
CN is one I think gets misplayed a lot as CE. CN tends to invoke either a madman or an excuse for poor behavior when, as a philosophy, it would just represent more of an individualist/survivalist mentality. I have also noticed players who flock to CN tend to be rather disruptive in general, much like players who want to play evil PCs.
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-James
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/10/08 15:54:37
Subject: DnD Paladins
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Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos
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jmurph wrote:
CN is one I think gets misplayed a lot as CE. CN tends to invoke either a madman or an excuse for poor behavior when, as a philosophy, it would just represent more of an individualist/survivalist mentality. I have also noticed players who flock to CN tend to be rather disruptive in general, much like players who want to play evil PCs.
I think that at a base level, CN is simply an annoying alignment when played up. It's basically a highly individualistic, cranky alignment, which makes it tough to integrate into groups. When played well, it can show a person with a strong set of principles/sense of family. You could argue that Mal Reynolds from Firefly is Chaotic Neutral by the time of the show.
However, I agree that it's the alignment of choice for people that want to be disruptive, or god forbid, "wacky."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/10/08 23:13:43
Subject: DnD Paladins
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Polonius wrote: jmurph wrote:
CN is one I think gets misplayed a lot as CE. CN tends to invoke either a madman or an excuse for poor behavior when, as a philosophy, it would just represent more of an individualist/survivalist mentality. I have also noticed players who flock to CN tend to be rather disruptive in general, much like players who want to play evil PCs.
I think that at a base level, CN is simply an annoying alignment when played up. It's basically a highly individualistic, cranky alignment, which makes it tough to integrate into groups. When played well, it can show a person with a strong set of principles/sense of family. You could argue that Mal Reynolds from Firefly is Chaotic Neutral by the time of the show.
However, I agree that it's the alignment of choice for people that want to be disruptive, or god forbid, "wacky."
Ehh, I dunno about Reynolds... But quite possibly Mad Max?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/10/09 01:46:06
Subject: DnD Paladins
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ensis Ferrae wrote: Polonius wrote: jmurph wrote:
CN is one I think gets misplayed a lot as CE. CN tends to invoke either a madman or an excuse for poor behavior when, as a philosophy, it would just represent more of an individualist/survivalist mentality. I have also noticed players who flock to CN tend to be rather disruptive in general, much like players who want to play evil PCs.
I think that at a base level, CN is simply an annoying alignment when played up. It's basically a highly individualistic, cranky alignment, which makes it tough to integrate into groups. When played well, it can show a person with a strong set of principles/sense of family. You could argue that Mal Reynolds from Firefly is Chaotic Neutral by the time of the show.
However, I agree that it's the alignment of choice for people that want to be disruptive, or god forbid, "wacky."
Ehh, I dunno about Reynolds... But quite possibly Mad Max?
My metrics are roughly:
Lawful: Likes doing things the "proper" way, whatever proper may be to them.
Neutral: Not super hung up on doing things the proper way, not super hung up on having to do things their way either.
Chaotic: Likes doing their own thing, their way.
Good: Goes out their way to help others, even strangers and donkey-caves.
Neutral: Not particularly inclined to go out of their way for strangers or donkey-caves but not willing to step all over others and just generally recognizes and respects the natural rights of others.,
Evil: Willing to step all over people. Either doesn't recognize or easily ignores the natural rights of others.
From what I remember of firefly, he struck me as a pretty CN.
In general I find D&D groups tend to shift everything one step to evil relative my views. That is to say you get to be "good" just for basic human decency, "neutral" includes any/all evil short mustache-twisting orphan burners, "evil" is basically double-Hitler. The number of times I've seen folks arguing a character like "The Punisher" is Lawful Good boggles my mind.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/10/09 01:52:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/10/09 01:54:56
Subject: DnD Paladins
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Chongara wrote:
The number of times I've seen folks arguing a character like "The Punisher" is Lawful Good boggles my mind.
Well... as discussed in the 5e Paladin thread, Lawful Good =/= Lawful Nice™ Unless I've missed some major developments in the Punisher story, he never harms an "innocent" in his pursuit of punishing an evildoer.....
That said, I do agree that he's not Lawful Good... at least, not LG the way even Judge Dredd is (remember, Dredd IS the law). He really is more a "true good" or chaotic good.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/10/09 02:08:13
Subject: DnD Paladins
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ensis Ferrae wrote: Chongara wrote:
The number of times I've seen folks arguing a character like "The Punisher" is Lawful Good boggles my mind.
Well... as discussed in the 5e Paladin thread, Lawful Good =/= Lawful Nice™ Unless I've missed some major developments in the Punisher story, he never harms an "innocent" in his pursuit of punishing an evildoer.....
That said, I do agree that he's not Lawful Good... at least, not LG the way even Judge Dredd is (remember, Dredd IS the law). He really is more a "true good" or chaotic good.
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Well you'd be in the camp of "Most D&D Players" I'd imagine, relative to my views. My standards for what constitute "Good" are much more exclusive than most and my standards for what is "Evil" are much more inclusive. In my view a man who is unwilling to consider or even aghast at the idea of non-lethal solutions to wrongdoers, and who is willing or even enthusiastic about mowing down far more lives than is strictly necessary to put a stop to misdeeds and in some stories actively engages in torture can only be evil. What brand ( LE,NE,CE) is up for debate simply as matter of how you weight having a stringent personal code vs being opposed to judgement or viewpoints not his own.
"Good" doesn't have to be nice, good can be a total donkey-cave. Good does however have to make a good-faith effort at finding a solution to problems other than killing people where at all feasible.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/10/09 05:44:54
Subject: DnD Paladins
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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That and Frank Castle doesn't really believe in the law, which makes it fairly hard to be Lawful Good.
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/10/12 20:01:32
Subject: DnD Paladins
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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Chongara- your struggles are what happens when you bring morality debates to a game system that tries to encapsulate human behavior in 3 flavors. It is worth noting, though, that some real world concepts wouldn't really apply to D&D. For example, in the RW, good and evil are largely subjective and have been the subject of endless debate. In D&D, they are absolutes defined by deific entities. That is, one does not need to question what good is because it is defined by a host of gods and divine servitors. Likewise, there are literal demons that replace metaphorical ones. So an angel on a war of genocide against a species of demons? Good, by definition. In the RW, a self proclaimed zealot violently purging evil would be much murkier, if not outright reprehensible.
You just have to realize that D&D is kind of an arbitrary construct built to kill bad guys and rack up things and not sweat it too much.
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-James
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/11/07 00:26:28
Subject: DnD Paladins
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I think some of the responses here are trying to insert personal morals into other's fantasy, which doesn't seem the way to go. The concept of good changes from one person to the next, one culture to the next and one time to the next. So telling someone play good (in a meaningless fictitious world) the way I define good is arbitrary and poor form.
The class is intended to be restricting so simply defining good as whatever is convenient is incorrect I think. But if you kill evil creatures because killing evil on sight is how good is defined in your make believe world, go for it. If torturing them by pouring holy water on them until they are purged of their evil deeds and spirits can transform them into a good being then go for it. Of course if that is good but violates their due process in your world then you've violated your lawful side so hand them over to the clergy for judgement and purging in accord with the law. If you have been given the power of judge, jury and executioner then have at it as long as you follow the proper procedures.
Doing good in the world you and your fellow players are immersed in could be what we may consider neutral or evil. Perhaps failure to adhere to strict tenants of faith opens one up to possession by an evil entity so you are forced, for their own good of course, to make someone participate in the holy rites or to punish them for something wicked like gazing at a bosom too long thereby leaving an opening for an evil spirit. You may be conflicted when you have to flog the dude, but that act which we wouldn't condone in our world is what must be done in that one. Though maybe you and some friends could seek a way to defeat the threat at its source so the rigid, oppressive faith is no longer needed.
Anyway define good in a way that is restrictive yet works for you and your group then stick with it. Don't worry about outsiders definitions of good.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/07 00:27:52
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