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 jasper76 wrote:
If you're looking to seek out the imbalance in 30k, its really the three or four top ones that confer a notable advantage IMO.

When I say "is OP" below, I really mean "can be construed as being OP".

-Alpha Legion: Being able to confer your choice of vicious rules on every Legion Astartes in your army is OP (its worth noting that many of these choices on the Alpha Legion menu would be a better Special Rule than anything many of the legions have access to). Being able to pick any legion-specific unit from any other Legion is OP.

-Iron Hands: -1 Strength to all incoming fire is OP.

-Ravenguard: Being able to Infiltrate the entirity of your army's infantry is OP.

-Imperial Fists: BS5 on all bolt shots when combined with Tank Hunting Heavy Support Squads is bordering on OP.


All that said, imbalance in 30k is a minor annoyance, and does not reach near the level of imbalance in 40k IMO.

How to beat:

Alpha Legion: Go second, put everything on the board

Iron Hands: You dont have enough vindicators

Raven guard: I've heard Augury scanners work well

Imperial Fists: MEHTAL BAWKSES

 jasper76 wrote:
If you're looking to seek out the imbalance in 30k, its really the three or four top ones that confer a notable advantage IMO.

When I say "is OP" below, I really mean "can be construed as being OP".

-Alpha Legion: Being able to confer your choice of vicious rules on every Legion Astartes in your army is OP (its worth noting that many of these choices on the Alpha Legion menu would be a better Special Rule than anything many of the legions have access to). Being able to pick any legion-specific unit from any other Legion is OP.

-Iron Hands: -1 Strength to all incoming fire is OP.

-Ravenguard: Being able to Infiltrate the entirity of your army's infantry is OP.

-Imperial Fists: BS5 on all bolt shots when combined with Tank Hunting Heavy Support Squads is bordering on OP.


All that said, imbalance in 30k is a minor annoyance, and does not reach near the level of imbalance in 40k IMO.

Alpha Legion: very easy to build the wrong list and not be able to take advantage of their rules, also a hard army to build in regards to using said rules, a go big or go home kind of Legion, if you take tank hunters, you need as many (very expensive) heavy weapons. This leaves you open to assault heavy armies or fast armies. Being able to take a single enemy Legion unit is op- useless depending on which you choose, justaerin.....rampagers, palatine blades, and the others are generally only good when taken in their respective legions.

Iron hands: don't shoot them, beat them in cc, and suddenly their Legion trait is utterly useless, they are a infantry heavy or armour heavy army, so they either have lots of tanks. Thus the -1 is irrelevant, or lots of tanks with iwnd, which can be fairly easy to deal with in 30k.

Raven guard: Mor deathan are ok at best, they are a small unit and have ok ish firepower, if you have meched up, they are near useless. Raven guard all infiltrate mean they lose a lot of the truly excellent vehicles hh has to offer, this is a big downside.

Imperial fists: bs5 str4 bolter.... I play my mates imp fists with my world eaters and it isn't that scary, especially if you just mech up, tank hunters come on horribly expensive and easily killed h's squads, if they play to their strengths they will take the castelan foc and pop down a load of ammo dumps and bunkers, again not op as any Legion can do this, fists just do it better.

Now BS5 Veterans with sniper is scary, especially when its a ten man blob and two have sniper heavy bolters

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Now BS5 Veterans with sniper is scary, especially when its a ten man blob and two have sniper heavy bolters

Yep, or Scorpios round bs6!

 Formosa wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Now BS5 Veterans with sniper is scary, especially when its a ten man blob and two have sniper heavy bolters

Yep, or Scorpios round bs6!

But the heavy bolter choice for Veterans comes with a suspensor web meaning bullets on the go and 3>1

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Now BS5 Veterans with sniper is scary, especially when its a ten man blob and two have sniper heavy bolters

Yep, or Scorpios round bs6!

But the heavy bolter choice for Veterans comes with a suspensor web meaning bullets on the go and 3>1

It's good to be sure, I use a vet squad with sniper in my world eaters, hb with suspensors too, but with fists the... Forget the name of the bloody squad, special issue ammo one, they get str3 blast and are bs5 as standard (if memory serves) so bs6 small blast rapid fire from 10 guys is really going to ruin your day, even at str3, if you space out it won't be as good, but that's what the other ammo is there for

 Formosa wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Now BS5 Veterans with sniper is scary, especially when its a ten man blob and two have sniper heavy bolters

Yep, or Scorpios round bs6!

But the heavy bolter choice for Veterans comes with a suspensor web meaning bullets on the go and 3>1

It's good to be sure, I use a vet squad with sniper in my world eaters, hb with suspensors too, but with fists the... Forget the name of the bloody squad, special issue ammo one, they get str3 blast and are bs5 as standard (if memory serves) so bs6 small blast rapid fire from 10 guys is really going to ruin your day, even at str3, if you space out it won't be as good, but that's what the other ammo is there for

Then we just add a librarian with misfortune. Say good buy to everything that isn't a landraider

 Formosa wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

World Eaters, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children suuuuuuuuckkkkkkk.....

I play WE anyway. They can give every other legion a hard time.

I agree, world eaters can be extremely good as long as you don't play on boards with no Los blocking scenery, they play the Legion game very differently than all the others, hordes of 15 man despoiler squads and lots of contemptors, backed up by one of the best assault units in the game, red butchers.

Indeed, Red Butchers in a Spartan joined by Angron is a scary unit. I like Rampagers too. They are also quite deadly when led by suitable HQ like Kharn.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

World Eaters, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children suuuuuuuuckkkkkkk.....

I play WE anyway. They can give every other legion a hard time.

I agree, world eaters can be extremely good as long as you don't play on boards with no Los blocking scenery, they play the Legion game very differently than all the others, hordes of 15 man despoiler squads and lots of contemptors, backed up by one of the best assault units in the game, red butchers.

Indeed, Red Butchers in a Spartan joined by Angron is a scary unit. I like Rampagers too. They are also quite deadly when led by suitable HQ like Kharn.

Rampagers suck sadly, I still use them every game but they are bad, they should come stock with ceadre weapons and not pay the points for them, like every other legion specific unit with a unique weapon, bar Ravenguard, they pay for the talons, but have jump packs for free.

 Formosa wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

World Eaters, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children suuuuuuuuckkkkkkk.....

I play WE anyway. They can give every other legion a hard time.

I agree, world eaters can be extremely good as long as you don't play on boards with no Los blocking scenery, they play the Legion game very differently than all the others, hordes of 15 man despoiler squads and lots of contemptors, backed up by one of the best assault units in the game, red butchers.

Indeed, Red Butchers in a Spartan joined by Angron is a scary unit. I like Rampagers too. They are also quite deadly when led by suitable HQ like Kharn.

Rampagers suck sadly, I still use them every game but they are bad, they should come stock with ceadre weapons and not pay the points for them, like every other legion specific unit with a unique weapon, bar Ravenguard, they pay for the talons, but have jump packs for free.

Indeed, caedre weapons should be for free. However, I like their look and in a LR they are mobile enough to pick their target.

I dunno if I agree with the newer the book the better the rules; the Ultramarines legion rules and logos lectora are 'meh' for the former and 'garbage tier' for the latter.

Guilliman and his Suzerains though... Baller as heck. Even the power sword and artificer armour assault marines and Fulmentarii are pretty great. Almost every dream list I have for them has them in it; AP2 at initiative auto wounding on 6s to hit is nice (well, for the Suzerains, at least.)

Or a praetor with combat shield, idomitan mantle, the warp shunt field on a jetbike with a retinue on a jetbike. Now make them all Imperial fists and run the Stone Gauntlet RoW. T6 jetbikers anyone?

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Or a praetor with combat shield, idomitan mantle, the warp shunt field on a jetbike with a retinue on a jetbike. Now make them all Imperial fists and run the Stone Gauntlet RoW. T6 jetbikers anyone?

Thankfully that doesn't work, as far as I know you cannot take a jetbike command squad and the jetbike unit doesn't have access to the Shields, although a jetbike commander in a command squad with combat Shields does work, they can't take the bike sadly.

 Formosa wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Or a praetor with combat shield, idomitan mantle, the warp shunt field on a jetbike with a retinue on a jetbike. Now make them all Imperial fists and run the Stone Gauntlet RoW. T6 jetbikers anyone?

Thankfully that doesn't work, as far as I know you cannot take a jetbike command squad and the jetbike unit doesn't have access to the Shields, although a jetbike commander in a command squad with combat Shields does work, they can't take the bike sadly.

Yes they can. They buy them individually at 10 points less then the Praetor pays.

All the Legions seem fairly balanced. Emperors Children are probably weakest, and the special units of the Legions from the first book need a little tweaking, but it's still pretty good overall.
Can't comment on Mechanicum, Auxilia or Cults.

 Farseer Anath'lan wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Or a praetor with combat shield, idomitan mantle, the warp shunt field on a jetbike with a retinue on a jetbike. Now make them all Imperial fists and run the Stone Gauntlet RoW. T6 jetbikers anyone?

Thankfully that doesn't work, as far as I know you cannot take a jetbike command squad and the jetbike unit doesn't have access to the Shields, although a jetbike commander in a command squad with combat Shields does work, they can't take the bike sadly.

Yes they can. They buy them individually at 10 points less then the Praetor pays.

All the Legions seem fairly balanced. Emperors Children are probably weakest, and the special units of the Legions from the first book need a little tweaking, but it's still pretty good overall.
Can't comment on Mechanicum, Auxilia or Cults.

I'm not seeing it in my mini rulebook... I will check again.

You can in my HH1.

 Formosa wrote:

 Farseer Anath'lan wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Or a praetor with combat shield, idomitan mantle, the warp shunt field on a jetbike with a retinue on a jetbike. Now make them all Imperial fists and run the Stone Gauntlet RoW. T6 jetbikers anyone?

Thankfully that doesn't work, as far as I know you cannot take a jetbike command squad and the jetbike unit doesn't have access to the Shields, although a jetbike commander in a command squad with combat Shields does work, they can't take the bike sadly.

Yes they can. They buy them individually at 10 points less then the Praetor pays.

All the Legions seem fairly balanced. Emperors Children are probably weakest, and the special units of the Legions from the first book need a little tweaking, but it's still pretty good overall.
Can't comment on Mechanicum, Auxilia or Cults.

I'm not seeing it in my mini rulebook... I will check again.

Its in the Command squad section. If the Praetor takes a jetbike, the command squad can take jetbikes

Ah I see it now, sweet, that means I need to adjust my review, it also means I can take a ravenwing hh command squad! (technically)

 Crazyterran wrote:
I dunno if I agree with the newer the book the better the rules; the Ultramarines legion rules and logos lectora are 'meh' for the former and 'garbage tier' for the latter.

Guilliman and his Suzerains though... Baller as heck. Even the power sword and artificer armour assault marines and Fulmentarii are pretty great. Almost every dream list I have for them has them in it; AP2 at initiative auto wounding on 6s to hit is nice (well, for the Suzerains, at least.)

I am debating on going this route when I start up UM with the new Plastic box. The Suzerains seem fething awesome, I want to throw them in a Spartan with an Melee HQ and run them up the field.

 Vash108 wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
I dunno if I agree with the newer the book the better the rules; the Ultramarines legion rules and logos lectora are 'meh' for the former and 'garbage tier' for the latter.

Guilliman and his Suzerains though... Baller as heck. Even the power sword and artificer armour assault marines and Fulmentarii are pretty great. Almost every dream list I have for them has them in it; AP2 at initiative auto wounding on 6s to hit is nice (well, for the Suzerains, at least.)

I am debating on going this route when I start up UM with the new Plastic box. The Suzerains seem fething awesome, I want to throw them in a Spartan with an Melee HQ and run them up the field.

Suzerains are excellent, but make sure you have something to engage with them, send the other unit in first then engage the Suzerains and watch them wreck face, my brother rocks 20 backed up by 30 assault marines, my world eaters are having a hard time of it at the moment against him, one of the weaknesses I've found in them is simply the "get across the board" syndrome all good assault units have, it makes them very expensive, very quickly and thus the army is smaller.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

World Eaters, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children suuuuuuuuckkkkkkk.....

I play WE anyway. They can give every other legion a hard time.

I agree, world eaters can be extremely good as long as you don't play on boards with no Los blocking scenery, they play the Legion game very differently than all the others, hordes of 15 man despoiler squads and lots of contemptors, backed up by one of the best assault units in the game, red butchers.

Indeed, Red Butchers in a Spartan joined by Angron is a scary unit. I like Rampagers too. They are also quite deadly when led by suitable HQ like Kharn.

I love the Red Butchers and Rampagers, but they are over priced WRT their points. I think with the next Red Book update we will see their point ts cst drop drastically.

Mat

 combat engineer wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

World Eaters, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children suuuuuuuuckkkkkkk.....

I play WE anyway. They can give every other legion a hard time.

I agree, world eaters can be extremely good as long as you don't play on boards with no Los blocking scenery, they play the Legion game very differently than all the others, hordes of 15 man despoiler squads and lots of contemptors, backed up by one of the best assault units in the game, red butchers.

Indeed, Red Butchers in a Spartan joined by Angron is a scary unit. I like Rampagers too. They are also quite deadly when led by suitable HQ like Kharn.

I love the Red Butchers and Rampagers, but they are over priced WRT their points. I think with the next Red Book update we will see their point ts cst drop drastically.

Mat

I don't mind. We play just for fun and a great laugh. My WE are always competitive. Angron is a real beast able to take out each other Primarch.

Death guard do NOT suck!

Piles of rad grenades, heavy support squads as troops, shredding flamers, immunity to fear and pinning, arguably the hardest to kill primarch, they give the finger to poison, pretty decent named characters, the only legion with all terminators as specific units, and they even can get move through cover.
(I rolled the reaping into this since it's the best!)

Sons of Horus are awesome. I've won ever game I've played with them since HH first was released.

I've been going through all the Legion traits (note: TRAITS, not Legion specific rules and units) and death Guard have by far the most situational and worst of the lot, Emperor's Children are not great in and of themselves and world eaters only suffer as it's a shooting edition, lastly the 4th worst are sons of horus, they have a Legion trait (like death guards) that will not come into account most of the time, merciless fighters is good, but that's it.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 combat engineer wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

World Eaters, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children suuuuuuuuckkkkkkk.....

I play WE anyway. They can give every other legion a hard time.

I agree, world eaters can be extremely good as long as you don't play on boards with no Los blocking scenery, they play the Legion game very differently than all the others, hordes of 15 man despoiler squads and lots of contemptors, backed up by one of the best assault units in the game, red butchers.

Indeed, Red Butchers in a Spartan joined by Angron is a scary unit. I like Rampagers too. They are also quite deadly when led by suitable HQ like Kharn.

I love the Red Butchers and Rampagers, but they are over priced WRT their points. I think with the next Red Book update we will see their point ts cst drop drastically.

Mat

I don't mind. We play just for fun and a great laugh. My WE are always competitive. Angron is a real beast able to take out each other Primarch.

Horus will kick Angrons a$$ every time 1v1 bar terrible rolling. Angrons armor really lets him down vs other primarchs. Luckily his high WS and masses of attacks keep him in the fight vs most but run into Horus and I assure you, you will suffer a relatively slow but very painful defeat. The way Angron is built to me seems he is intended for mass infantry killing with his multiple challenge rule and extra attack shiz, he doesn't have the staying power to take out dedicated duellist opponents. I stopped hobby a few months ago and recently returned. I remember my sons of Horus kicking some serious butt in the 30k setting. Until they came up vs a dedicated 40k list and...it wasn't pretty. From what I've seen WB and Imperial fists seem really brutal. Interestingly enough Lorgar transfigured is a complete badass and can kill a lot of other primarchs. Anyway primarchs in my experience are poor for their points cost until you reach larger scale games and at that point the really dedicated force multipliers among them become significantly more useful while killy primarchs like Angron become a big destroyer/tarpit magnet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How are people fairing with the Machanicum/Auxillia?

My auxilia are bloodying a lot if noses, people simply don't expect fast leman Russ or a trade of str6 shots from the 20 man squads, the av13/12/10 artillery (which I use as mbts) and the horrific dedicated transports, lastly they never expect my legate to murder their praetor with my eternal warrior paragon bladed murder machine, so to answer, yes solar aux are doing well for me.

Imperialis Militia are very effective - you can't really badge them as one 'army' the way a single legion or the solar auxilia work, though, because their provenances make so much difference to how the army works.

Squats (Survivors of the Dark Age/Abhuman Helots) play a lot like Sisters of Battle do in 40k; massive small arms fire for a low points cost.

In rapid fire range they're legion infantry units for a substantially lower cost. In a melee they're guardsmen with a slightly improved armour save and toughness and worse leadership.

The most ridiculous force is probably the Kaul Mandari (Cult Horde/Twisted Flesh). If an opponent has taken massed flamers/quad launchers/volkite weapons, they'll do okay, but Kaul Mandari levy units are just insane. Literally.

Units of 50 dudes with zealot and rending for less than the price of a legion tactical squad - you can afford to run through your opponent's fire - including fury of the legion - and still have enough bodies left to stab him to death with.

Plus - along with Word Bearers - they are one of two factions with access to allied Daemons. A Greater Daemon is one of the few things that can stand up to a Primarch more or less one on one.

Js greater daemons get utterly crushed by any of the combat dedicated primarchs. Like completely and utterly crushed. Most gd won't even last a round with average rolls

I have to agree with everyone else. There doesn't seem to be a clear over powered winner with 30k like you would see in 40k. From what I've seen and read, a legion's success is tied more to the player's over all skills. Again, this is something that isn't exactly seen in 40k. Knowing Forge World, this trend will continue.

I for one am planning on starting a Death Guard army. I may have some Alpha Legion for the painting challenge.