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An OSC is sounding more appealing.

I would definitely double-down and run the stealth suits with pure burst cannons (BS3/4/5 + Ignores cover, right?).

Attached marker drones? 10pts+24pts.. so 19pts/drone? Worth it? Would you then need 3 target locks?

Stealth Cadre stealth suits in large all burst canon units fill the role of "Troops" pretty well in a themed list built from formations, rather than a Hunter Cadre.

 Kanluwen wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Um, how are you giving the OSC rules to a missileside? its a formation specific perk, not a special rule.

You misunderstood, I shot at the knight with the ghostkeels and the missilesides. Ghostkeels shot the rear and missile sides shot the front, leaving one facing unprotected.

That'll work the first time against someone who doesn't know how OSC works.

You likely will not get to use that trick again.

Um how so? Its not a trick... thats just how the units work...

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Um, how are you giving the OSC rules to a missileside? its a formation specific perk, not a special rule.

You misunderstood, I shot at the knight with the ghostkeels and the missilesides. Ghostkeels shot the rear and missile sides shot the front, leaving one facing unprotected.

That'll work the first time against someone who doesn't know how OSC works.

You likely will not get to use that trick again.

Um how so? Its not a trick... thats just how the units work...

If someone does not know that Optimised Stealth Cadre's shots always count as hitting Rear Armor when using Wall of Mirrors and there comes a point where you have the Missilesides and OSC to the front of the Knight?
A Knight has to declare the facing for its Ion Shield at the start of the opposing side's Shooting phase(in this case the Tau player's Shooting phase, roughly at the same time the Tau player would have to declare if they're using Wall of Mirrors with the OSC).
The Knight player would, naturally in a situation like that without foreknowledge of OSC's "Wall of Mirrors" and its effects, declare the Ion Shield to be facing forwards.

That's why I referred to it as a "trick". Once someone knows what it is? Yeah--I can basically guarantee that they won't make that mistake again.

 Kanluwen wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Um, how are you giving the OSC rules to a missileside? its a formation specific perk, not a special rule.

You misunderstood, I shot at the knight with the ghostkeels and the missilesides. Ghostkeels shot the rear and missile sides shot the front, leaving one facing unprotected.

That'll work the first time against someone who doesn't know how OSC works.

You likely will not get to use that trick again.

Um how so? Its not a trick... thats just how the units work...

If someone does not know that Optimised Stealth Cadre's shots always count as hitting Rear Armor when using Wall of Mirrors and there comes a point where you have the Missilesides and OSC to the front of the Knight?
A Knight has to declare the facing for its Ion Shield at the start of the opposing side's Shooting phase(in this case the Tau player's Shooting phase, roughly at the same time the Tau player would have to declare if they're using Wall of Mirrors with the OSC).
The Knight player would, naturally in a situation like that without foreknowledge of OSC's "Wall of Mirrors" and its effects, declare the Ion Shield to be facing forwards.

That's why I referred to it as a "trick". Once someone knows what it is? Yeah--I can basically guarantee that they won't make that mistake again.

And then it takes missilesides to the front.

That's what he's been saying.

Now, Missilesides aren't the best example unless they're in a firebase, but the point essentially stands: It's super easy to have your Ghostkeels strike rear armour as something else hits the front.

changemod wrote:

And then it takes missilesides to the front.

That's what he's been saying.

Now, Missilesides aren't the best example unless they're in a firebase, but the point essentially stands: It's super easy to have your Ghostkeels strike rear armour as something else hits the front.

It's super easy to have your Ghostkeels hit rear armor as long as they're in the OSC, period, if someone doesn't know the rule allows for striking rear armor.

Which was kind of why I made the statement I did--it's a trick you'll only ever be able to use once against a specific player, unless you don't tell them how you're striking rear armor from the front.

 Kanluwen wrote:

changemod wrote:

And then it takes missilesides to the front.

That's what he's been saying.

Now, Missilesides aren't the best example unless they're in a firebase, but the point essentially stands: It's super easy to have your Ghostkeels strike rear armour as something else hits the front.

It's super easy to have your Ghostkeels hit rear armor as long as they're in the OSC, period, if someone doesn't know the rule allows for striking rear armor.

Which was kind of why I made the statement I did--it's a trick you'll only ever be able to use once against a specific player, unless you don't tell them how you're striking rear armor from the front.

The fact that your opponent is aware of the OSC (Wall of mirrors) rule and the ability of a ghostkeel to automatically hit rear armour aren't linked.

I agree your opponent, aware of a units potential, can react accordingly but that is about it.

Razerous wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

changemod wrote:

And then it takes missilesides to the front.

That's what he's been saying.

Now, Missilesides aren't the best example unless they're in a firebase, but the point essentially stands: It's super easy to have your Ghostkeels strike rear armour as something else hits the front.

It's super easy to have your Ghostkeels hit rear armor as long as they're in the OSC, period, if someone doesn't know the rule allows for striking rear armor.

Which was kind of why I made the statement I did--it's a trick you'll only ever be able to use once against a specific player, unless you don't tell them how you're striking rear armor from the front.

The fact that your opponent is aware of the OSC (Wall of mirrors) rule and the ability of a ghostkeel to automatically hit rear armour aren't linked.

I agree your opponent, aware of a units potential, can react accordingly but that is about it.

This. It's a pincer move, and forces your opponent to leave one side undefended.

It's not some masterful surprise tactic, you just line two units up and get to force a decision on the ion shield.

Pretty sure you want side shots (AV12), not front shots (AV13). Just say'n.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Stealth Suits in a OSC aren't compeating with anything, unless you are implying that the OSC itself is compeating for points better spent elsewhere. Wall of Mirrors, however, makes you want to get the most out of your Stealth Suits though.

SJ

Points is what I meant completely, as at the 180 points for two minimum squads you can get another Ghostkeel and a Crisis Suit, or another unit of Crisis Suits, or almost three Broadsides. The question then comes down to as to how much you value the Wall of Mirrors in comparison to the versatility of other options. The formations make the Stealth Suits a much more valid option, but they're still amazingly restrictive in nature.

 Tinkrr wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Stealth Suits in a OSC aren't compeating with anything, unless you are implying that the OSC itself is compeating for points better spent elsewhere. Wall of Mirrors, however, makes you want to get the most out of your Stealth Suits though.

SJ

Points is what I meant completely, as at the 180 points for two minimum squads you can get another Ghostkeel and a Crisis Suit, or another unit of Crisis Suits, or almost three Broadsides. The question then comes down to as to how much you value the Wall of Mirrors in comparison to the versatility of other options. The formations make the Stealth Suits a much more valid option, but they're still amazingly restrictive in nature.

You also have to add in the value of making your ghostkeel squad +1 BS, ignore cover, and hit rear of vehicles. Making 3 ghostkeel get all those buffs (and thus at BS5) is pretty amazing and worth stealth suit "tax"

changemod wrote:

Razerous wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

changemod wrote:

And then it takes missilesides to the front.

That's what he's been saying.

Now, Missilesides aren't the best example unless they're in a firebase, but the point essentially stands: It's super easy to have your Ghostkeels strike rear armour as something else hits the front.

It's super easy to have your Ghostkeels hit rear armor as long as they're in the OSC, period, if someone doesn't know the rule allows for striking rear armor.

Which was kind of why I made the statement I did--it's a trick you'll only ever be able to use once against a specific player, unless you don't tell them how you're striking rear armor from the front.

The fact that your opponent is aware of the OSC (Wall of mirrors) rule and the ability of a ghostkeel to automatically hit rear armour aren't linked.

I agree your opponent, aware of a units potential, can react accordingly but that is about it.

This. It's a pincer move, and forces your opponent to leave one side undefended.

It's not some masterful surprise tactic, you just line two units up and get to force a decision on the ion shield.

This is what I'm trying to imply, and this is exactly what I did versus my Knight opponent. He placed his Shield on his rear armor, but left his front armor completely unprotected against Missilesides and Missilesuits, which coupled with the Wall of Mirrors and Tank Hunter put over 9 hull points on this one Imperial Knight. I understand that it's a lot of points to kill one unit (653 in my case), but I was able to do this amount of damage at the 24"-36" threat range, which left me way out of position for a retaliatory charge from the surviving Knight (which actually died to 4 Markerlight Buffed Destroyer Missiles).

What I'm trying to say is that I understand that Strength 7 is not ideal against Armor 13, but when it lacks any save and when you increase its potency through buffs, it has incredible potential.

DirtyDeeds wrote:
What I'm trying to say is that I understand that Strength 7 is not ideal against Armor 13, but when it lacks any save and when you increase its potency through buffs, it has incredible potential.

You need 6 str7 hits per HP for AV13, moving down to 4-5 with tank hunter.. so optimistically that is a full broadside squad plus change, or a couple of missile-pod squads.

The positive is, with the various buffs with markerlights, ignores cover and tank hunter (regardless of the reading of Combined Fire), you can very easily stack the odds and make things reliable. That being the key word here.. reliable!

You can decide where to focus the balance. Ensure that pie-plate auto-hits and ignores cover? Want to hit on 2's with a Str D missile (ignores cover, naturally)? Or ensure you hit-rate is nigh-on 97% - done.

Edit: Sorry.. off=topic. Whilst the Ret Cadre gives you a neat similar-to Farsight Enclaves formation to build an army, it doesn't have as much intrinsic benefit as the OSC. Mobility is king and the potentially lack-luster firepower (Stealth Suits) is most definitely offset by excellent firepower elsewhere AND/OR the innate abilities of the OSC. Burst cannon stealth suits are now what Missile Pods Suits are to AV12. Winner!