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I'm curious with all the comments about Dreads and other vehicles being glanced to death in combat by krak grenades - how many 6s do your opponents roll? Have you checked their dice?

Many years ago I had about ten Genestealers (S6, rending) locked in combat with a Penitent Engine and after two turns I'd managed to tear its flamer off. Mind you my dice rolls have been so bad my own teammates once suspected I was somehow working with the other side

Another thing with Walkers VS MCs is that as a walker takes damage, it loses it's effectiveness. If you lose it's CCW, it is reduced in strength and no longer ignores armor. If you destroy it's gun, it loses it's shooting power. Immobilize it and it can't move. MCs, no matter what you do, will still be just as powerful as fresh on the board until the moment you take away it's last wound, then it suffers a critical existence failure and dies of a heart attack.

Also one more thing with walkers is that, due to the current meta, an AV12 or lower walker is hilariously fragile, but the moment you jump to AV13 or AV14 it becomes hilariously hard to budge (although this is an issue with all vehicles). This is mainly a byproduct of the system's own scaling issues.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Also one more thing with walkers is that, due to the current meta, an AV12 or lower walker is hilariously fragile, but the moment you jump to AV13 or AV14 it becomes hilariously hard to budge (although this is an issue with all vehicles). This is mainly a byproduct of the system's own scaling issues.

I've had vanilla Dreadnaughts wade through a few turns of Riptide and battle suit fire (Ion accelerator and fusion/plasma guns) and manage to kill their opponent.

I wonder if the easiest fix to walkers and vehicles isn't to change them to mcs but change the vehicle rules. Get rid of weapon destroyed and maybe change the immobilization rules so that when a immobilized vehicle is damaged it only strips 1 hp or maybe doesn't strip hp at all. Get rid of the extra damage rules, but keep the whole explodes/smoke thing and maybe damage occupants.

And change the darn cover rules for gc in particular.

Alternatively, a monstrous creature such as a Daemon Prince would be fuelled by daemonic powers and may well be able to fight at full effectiveness until you chop the bugger up. Equally, Tyranids don't conquer galaxies by rolling over like professional footballers every time one of their scythe blades gets shot off. Many of the monsters in 40k are way too powerful to stop by conventional means.

By contrast machines degrade, suffer damage they cannot self repair (how does a Dreadnought repair torn cabling for its power fist?) and are generally nowhere near as reliable or long lasting as biological entities.

It makes sense that vehicles would lose their effectiveness after a lascannon hit than a Tyrannofex or a Great Unclean One, who let's face it, would probably regard a direct lascannon hit as a change in the breeze.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Also one more thing with walkers is that, due to the current meta, an AV12 or lower walker is hilariously fragile, but the moment you jump to AV13 or AV14 it becomes hilariously hard to budge (although this is an issue with all vehicles). This is mainly a byproduct of the system's own scaling issues.

I've had vanilla Dreadnaughts wade through a few turns of Riptide and battle suit fire (Ion accelerator and fusion/plasma guns) and manage to kill their opponent.

I've had a single grot block the path of an imperial knight and cost the opponent a win in that game. Means grots are op?

 koooaei wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Also one more thing with walkers is that, due to the current meta, an AV12 or lower walker is hilariously fragile, but the moment you jump to AV13 or AV14 it becomes hilariously hard to budge (although this is an issue with all vehicles). This is mainly a byproduct of the system's own scaling issues.

I've had vanilla Dreadnaughts wade through a few turns of Riptide and battle suit fire (Ion accelerator and fusion/plasma guns) and manage to kill their opponent.

I've had a single grot block the path of an imperial knight and cost the opponent a win in that game. Means grots are op?

Both these situations sound like cases of good rolls/bad rolls rather than a representation of the walker's or grots' actual effectiveness

Yes, I realize Koooaei is being sarcastic. AV12 is actually quite fragile. The problem being not the AV, but the vehicle rules. So easy to glace weapons to death. Immobilized and weapon destroyed rules don't help either.