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I wouldn't say absurd. He's really 250 points for Gate on a stick and a decent melee monster. I can get a lvl3 librarian, who fills a mandatory HQ slot, and still has a good change of getting Gate and isn't terrible in melee, for just a little over half that cost.

He is a bit expensive, I don't usually take him because of that.

Makumba wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
It depends. DS'ing everything in turn 1 because of your formation is considered s dick move though.

How so?

SJ

My Guard..... Where wiped in turn three.

Your point being what?

turn one deep strike is very unfun move for IG players. something they can do little to nothing about using their codex. Making them play vs something like a turn 1 alfa strike army, could be seen as a dick move by some.

Pretty much this. I had exactly zilch in the way of hard counters to him.

jeffersonian000 wrote:So, what I get from you is that faster army push you out of your comfort zone, so you call any trying to not die to your gunline a dick for trying to close thd gap early. Seems like the wrong person is the "dick".

SJ

Yes, it did push me out of my comfort zone. By wiping out a third of my infantry and 40% of my armour on the very first turn as well as leaving my Thunderer - my one AP2 weapon - immobilised and facing where the enemy was supposed to be, essentially turning it into a very expensive Heavy Stubber bunker. Then on turn two the charge came and after that things just went downhill (Guard and melee = mincemeat)
Remind me again of the last time that any such thing - IE an opponent essentially negating the one thing that your army is good at and wiping close to half of it out in the first turn - happened to you?

Martel732 wrote:No one wants to footslog across a board against a bunch of shooting models. IG needs to abuse the fact that 2+ armor is not all that anymore.

Would that be but 2+ is still incredibly good against us IG. We have but three weapons which can counter it directly: A dedicated single shot AT weapon (Lascannon), an extremely short ranged AT gun (Melta) and a short ranged pieplate of negotiable value (Demolisher).

 master of ordinance wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
It depends. DS'ing everything in turn 1 because of your formation is considered s dick move though.

How so?

SJ

My Guard..... Where wiped in turn three.

Your point being what?

turn one deep strike is very unfun move for IG players. something they can do little to nothing about using their codex. Making them play vs something like a turn 1 alfa strike army, could be seen as a dick move by some.

Pretty much this. I had exactly zilch in the way of hard counters to him.

Umm, thats kinda the ideal game.

Anyway, killing terminators with AP2 has always been a bad idea. You kill terminators by forcing lots of armor saves, not by ignoring their armor.

And really if he just walked across the board at you it would be a complete massacre in your favor. You can't expect him to do that.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wouldn't say absurd. He's really 250 points for Gate on a stick and a decent melee monster. I can get a lvl3 librarian, who fills a mandatory HQ slot, and still has a good change of getting Gate and isn't terrible in melee, for just a little over half that cost.

He is a bit expensive, I don't usually take him because of that.

For some reason, I never see those level 3 libbies. I see Draigo. Over. And over. And over. And over.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
It depends. DS'ing everything in turn 1 because of your formation is considered s dick move though.

How so?

SJ

My Guard..... Where wiped in turn three.

Your point being what?

turn one deep strike is very unfun move for IG players. something they can do little to nothing about using their codex. Making them play vs something like a turn 1 alfa strike army, could be seen as a dick move by some.

Pretty much this. I had exactly zilch in the way of hard counters to him.

Umm, thats kinda the ideal game.

Anyway, killing terminators with AP2 has always been a bad idea. You kill terminators by forcing lots of armor saves, not by ignoring their armor.

And really if he just walked across the board at you it would be a complete massacre in your favor. You can't expect him to do that.

You can actually do either, which is why terminators suck.

Martel732 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wouldn't say absurd. He's really 250 points for Gate on a stick and a decent melee monster. I can get a lvl3 librarian, who fills a mandatory HQ slot, and still has a good change of getting Gate and isn't terrible in melee, for just a little over half that cost.

He is a bit expensive, I don't usually take him because of that.

For some reason, I never see those level 3 libbies. I see Draigo. Over. And over. And over. And over.

Your local GK players are unimaginative and missing the true strength of the codex then.

Its all about taking 2-3 lvl3 librarians, super cheap for what they do.

"Would that be but 2+ is still incredibly good against us IG"

No, it's not. Because it's not good against anyone in the game anymore unless it is on an MC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wouldn't say absurd. He's really 250 points for Gate on a stick and a decent melee monster. I can get a lvl3 librarian, who fills a mandatory HQ slot, and still has a good change of getting Gate and isn't terrible in melee, for just a little over half that cost.

He is a bit expensive, I don't usually take him because of that.

For some reason, I never see those level 3 libbies. I see Draigo. Over. And over. And over. And over.

Your local GK players are unimaginative and missing the true strength of the codex then.

Its all about taking 2-3 lvl3 librarians, super cheap for what they do.

Maybe. Either way, I spend all game running away. Super heroic, there.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
It depends. DS'ing everything in turn 1 because of your formation is considered s dick move though.

How so?

SJ

My Guard..... Where wiped in turn three.

Your point being what?

turn one deep strike is very unfun move for IG players. something they can do little to nothing about using their codex. Making them play vs something like a turn 1 alfa strike army, could be seen as a dick move by some.

Pretty much this. I had exactly zilch in the way of hard counters to him.

Umm, thats kinda the ideal game.

Anyway, killing terminators with AP2 has always been a bad idea. You kill terminators by forcing lots of armor saves, not by ignoring their armor.

And really if he just walked across the board at you it would be a complete massacre in your favor. You can't expect him to do that.

Ah but little Grasshopper, you forget his shunt moves. That shunt has proven very nasty in past games.
Besides, he has a fething Stormthingy (flyer with Dread transport), he does not need to footslog. And as for killing Termies by forcing lots of saves, well have you ever even tried going up against Paladins with FNP? Especially when they suddenly magically appear on your flanks and start eating it whilst your entire army tries to frantically redeploy to meet this sudden new threat.

Stormravens are awful. You lose 40K for even proposing that they are somehow a problem. For anyone.

" And as for killing Termies by forcing lots of saves, well have you ever even tried going up against Paladins with FNP?"

Why yes, I have.

He's using Paladins? Thats a terrible list then. They are way way overpriced and always have been. A good IG list should eat them alive.

Paladins aren't bad, you just have to use them in specific ways, and they must be paired with Draigo. I've used them to great success in tournaments before.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
He isn't cheese. He's almost 250 points and has no mobility outside Gate, which would mean they don't get to assault just yet.

Yeah, he's definitely very good, but he's certainly not OP. The only real cheese combo with him is the centstar, and that's really only cheesy because of grav cents. Otherwise, Draigo is right about where he should be. Powerful, reasonably priced, but not unbeatable.

 DarkLink wrote:
Land Raiders are also terrible.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
He isn't cheese. He's almost 250 points and has no mobility outside Gate, which would mean they don't get to assault just yet.

Yeah, he's definitely very good, but he's certainly not OP. The only real cheese combo with him is the centstar, and that's really only cheesy because of grav cents. Otherwise, Draigo is right about where he should be. Powerful, reasonably priced, but not unbeatable.

Maybe my characters are so bad that powerful has started to look like cheese to me.

Most characters are really bad, to be honest.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wouldn't say absurd. He's really 250 points for Gate on a stick and a decent melee monster. I can get a lvl3 librarian, who fills a mandatory HQ slot, and still has a good change of getting Gate and isn't terrible in melee, for just a little over half that cost.

I think a S7 (S9 with Hammerhand) AP2 Master Crafted Force weapon that strikes at I5 is a bit better than 'decent'. Well, that or the power creep in this game is even worse than I thought.

Also, I think the other reason to take Draigo is survivability. A Librarian is T4 W2 with a 2+/5+. Draigo is T4 W4 with Eternal Warrior and a 2+/3+ that can become a 2+/2+ with Sanctuary. He can tank an awful lot of fire.

Yeah. I think maybe 20% of special characters see competitive play.

Martel732 wrote:Stormravens are awful. You lose 40K for even proposing that they are somehow a problem. For anyone.

" And as for killing Termies by forcing lots of saves, well have you ever even tried going up against Paladins with FNP?"

Why yes, I have.

With zilch in the way of skyfire? Well wow, I did not know I was meant to throw faeces at them.
As for forcing lots of saves, well I had lost a good portion of my army on turn one, was deployed to meet a frontal assault meaning that very little had arc and had to redeploy before I could bring what little surviving numbers to face.
[edit] Oh and dont forget the awesome killing power of lasguns, feared by small flowers. Sometimes.[/edit]

Grey Templar wrote:He's using Paladins? Thats a terrible list then.

Really? 2 wound FNP psychic terminators are bad?

Stormravens are bad because you don't need skyfire to handle them. Plus, they struggle to get their points back.

Yeah, paladins are bad. Your IG tech is worse than I thought.

Yes. They are absolutely terrible for their point cost. You can get almost twice as many terminators for the cost, which have the same number of wounds and double the attacks and aren't vulnerable to ID.

As for no skyfire, you do have skyfire available. If you didn't take any that is your fault. Stormraven is a good model, but its point cost hurts it. Especially in the GK codex which hemorrhages points.

As for forcing lots of saves, well I had lost a good portion of my army on turn one, was deployed to meet a frontal assault meaning that very little had arc and had to redeploy before I could bring what little surviving numbers to face.

Just because you didn't deploy with turn 1 deep striking enemies in mind doesn't make what he did cheese. It means you deployed terribly.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes. They are absolutely terrible for their point cost. You can get almost twice as many terminators for the cost, which have the same number of wounds and double the attacks and aren't vulnerable to ID.

As for no skyfire, you do have skyfire available. If you didn't take any that is your fault.

As for forcing lots of saves, well I had lost a good portion of my army on turn one, was deployed to meet a frontal assault meaning that very little had arc and had to redeploy before I could bring what little surviving numbers to face.

Just because you didn't deploy with turn 1 deep striking enemies in mind doesn't make what he did cheese. It means you deployed terribly.

Why bring skyfire when 90% of flyers are garbage?

50 points for a Quad-gun as a little bit of insurance isn't a bad idea. Especially in the IG codex where everything is so cheap.

 Grey Templar wrote:
50 points for a Quad-gun as a little bit of insurance isn't a bad idea. Especially in the IG codex where everything is so cheap.

Only because you can shoot at skimmers, ie real vehicles, as well.

And those damn Eldar Jetbikes.

 Grey Templar wrote:
And those damn Eldar Jetbikes.

Them, too.

I still have no idea how you can lose 40% of an IG army in turn 1 to Grey Knights. GK just can't put out that much damage in one turn. I suspect hyperbole, not an actual game that was played.

SJ

GK are known for cutting through AV 13/14 with ease. Didn't you get the memo?

Only when I roll Vortex of Doom

What does he do against Skyhammer?

Martel732 wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
Land Raiders are also terrible.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
He isn't cheese. He's almost 250 points and has no mobility outside Gate, which would mean they don't get to assault just yet.

Yeah, he's definitely very good, but he's certainly not OP. The only real cheese combo with him is the centstar, and that's really only cheesy because of grav cents. Otherwise, Draigo is right about where he should be. Powerful, reasonably priced, but not unbeatable.

Maybe my characters are so bad that powerful has started to look like cheese to me.

I'll disagree with you forever on Dante, but I'll overall give you the rest. Tycho is one of the worst entries written in the history of the game.

Martel732 wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
Land Raiders are also terrible.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
He isn't cheese. He's almost 250 points and has no mobility outside Gate, which would mean they don't get to assault just yet.

Yeah, he's definitely very good, but he's certainly not OP. The only real cheese combo with him is the centstar, and that's really only cheesy because of grav cents. Otherwise, Draigo is right about where he should be. Powerful, reasonably priced, but not unbeatable.

Maybe my characters are so bad that powerful has started to look like cheese to me.

What army's characters? There are plenty of armies that don't play "Herohammer" and rather rely on things that aren't named characters or even ICs in general. And that's ok, in my book.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
Land Raiders are also terrible.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
He isn't cheese. He's almost 250 points and has no mobility outside Gate, which would mean they don't get to assault just yet.

Yeah, he's definitely very good, but he's certainly not OP. The only real cheese combo with him is the centstar, and that's really only cheesy because of grav cents. Otherwise, Draigo is right about where he should be. Powerful, reasonably priced, but not unbeatable.

Maybe my characters are so bad that powerful has started to look like cheese to me.

I'll disagree with you forever on Dante, but I'll overall give you the rest. Tycho is one of the worst entries written in the history of the game.

Dante just doesn't bring nearly enough to the table to be only 30 pts cheaper than Draigo. Dante should be less than 200 and closer to 150 if Draigo is the measuring stick.

Makumba wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
It depends. DS'ing everything in turn 1 because of your formation is considered s dick move though.

How so?

SJ

My Guard..... Where wiped in turn three.

Your point being what?

turn one deep strike is very unfun move for IG players. something they can do little to nothing about using their codex. Making them play vs something like a turn 1 alfa strike army, could be seen as a dick move by some.

And starting across the board from an army with a load of mid-to-long range AP3/2 is no fun for Grey Knight players. Making GK play vs something like Leman Russ and plasma guns, could be seen as a dick move by some.