Dune, The Wargame - why is this still not a thing?

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**George Spiggott**

I'm also a massive Dune fan. I bought my Necromunda Van Saar gang just because they looked like Fremen. I've long since sold these on but I would definitely buy into a Dune game if one were released.

I'm tempted to pick some of thse up from my FLGS and turn them into Harkonnens (David Lynch movie style).

http://www.empgames.co.uk/products/dh105-hazmat-clone-troopers

**Manchu**

Yodhrin wrote:
I honestly don't see how that's a problem.

Like I said, I would be pretty stoked about a Dune miniatures game. What miniatures gamer would not want to see a miniatures game version of their favorite IPs? But there is a roleplaying element in any game. In miniatures gaming, the player's role is usually that of an officer or NCO and not a politician. In Dune, unlike say 40k or SST, the story is not really about war as a matter of combat but as we all know political scheming. So having the main thematic conflict of Dune sit entirely in the background means there is some incongruity between the brand and the medium of miniatures gaming. Maybe if it was designed specifically for campaign play? That would of course limit its appeal. I think a board game is the way to go here, as Avalon Hill brilliantly surmised in the 70s.

**Rainyday**

AndrewGPaul wrote:

What look do you go for? Lynch's movie, the miniseries, or go back to the books and make up your own based on fairly scanty evidence? Do you use the setting just from the first three books featuring Paul (Dune, Children of Dune, Dune Messiah), during Leto II's reign or in the post-Leto era of Heretics and Chapter House? (hopefully no-one suggests setting it during the prequel period!)

How about Alejandro Jodorowsky's Dune? Might be the only way that glorious piece of vaporware ever gets an adaptation.

**Kilkrazy**

I'm not seeing Dune combat as very interesting, to be honest.

The use of the shield means that practically all fighting is a sort of slow motion knife fighting, except if you are actually on the planet Dune itself, where the worms attack shields.

It could work as a specialist fencing game, I suppose, but once you get into a lot of detail of individual movement, wargames tend to get boring and unrealistic.

**Jehan-reznor**

Kilkrazy wrote:
I'm not seeing Dune combat as very interesting, to be honest.

The use of the shield means that practically all fighting is a sort of slow motion knife fighting, except if you are actually on the planet Dune itself, where the worms attack shields.

It could work as a specialist fencing game, I suppose, but once you get into a lot of detail of individual movement, wargames tend to get boring and unrealistic.

I wonder if a skirmish or campaign system with more RPG elements would work, where you first play as normal fremen hiding your true numbers, sacrificing the weak and the elderly
and as you go through the campaign you unlock more resources, like worms a Paul, Gurney, Duncan as playable characters, weaponry and finally Atomics!
The spice must flow!

**Rainbow Dash**

Yodhrin wrote:
This is something that's been bugging me for the last couple of weeks since I rewatched the old Sci-Fi Channel miniseries adaptations; Warzone has come back from the grave, we have games based on Terminator, on AvP, even on Halo, yet still no real hint that one of the coolest scifi universes, and one ideally suited to a tabletop wargame format, is on the horizon. Are the people in charge of the IP rights opposed/uninterested/too greedy? Are companies worried it won't be able to gain a foothold given the presence of 40K(which has, shall we say, some striking similarities to Dune)? Is there really just nobody presently making wargames who likes/sees profit potential in the Dune IP?

It's puzzling - here's an IP where you(ie, the company making it) can start small with a modestly sized game system with a couple of faction infantry kits and a handful of add-on theme units/characters, yet still capture the IP thoroughly enough to entice in fans; the initial Harkonnen/Atreides conflict on Arrakis, particularly after Paul joins the Fremen, provides a solid narrative framework for a campaign system that takes players from small skirmish engagements through to larger battles, everything you need for an initial product is all there in the material from the first book. Then if it proves popular enough to expand, there's a wealth of material; other factions large and small in the Great Houses and the smaller groups to fuel model releases, Muad'Dib's Jihad and the subsequent novels provide a huge amount of narrative to flog as campaign books, even before you consider adding in your own "peripheral" conflicts that take place in the spaces between and around the official material. If you get really desperate for new stuff, you even have the mediocre prequel books written by Anderson & Herbert's son.

Yeah, like I say, it bugs me, it seems like such a no-brainer but there's just no sign of it happening.

Really Warzone's back!?

**Yodhrin**

Manchu wrote:
Yodhrin wrote:
I honestly don't see how that's a problem.
Like I said, I would be pretty stoked about a Dune miniatures game. What miniatures gamer would not want to see a miniatures game version of their favorite IPs? But there is a roleplaying element in any game. In miniatures gaming, the player's role is usually that of an officer or NCO and not a politician. In Dune, unlike say 40k or SST, the story is not really about war as a matter of combat but as we all know political scheming. So having the main thematic conflict of Dune sit entirely in the background means there is some incongruity between the brand and the medium of miniatures gaming. Maybe if it was designed specifically for campaign play? That would of course limit its appeal. I think a board game is the way to go here, as Avalon Hill brilliantly surmised in the 70s.

And yet we live in a world that can contain both Star Trek Catan, and Star Trek Attack Wing. I know for a lot of people Star Trek begins and ends with Kirk punching Gorn and shagging green lady aliens, or the Defiant going pchew-pchew-pchew at some Klingons/Jem'Hadar, but taken as a whole the setting is largely, thematically speaking, about the desirability of avoiding conflict altogether, about diplomacy and cultural understanding, about learning our own nature through our interactions with others. But it can still manage to support novels/episodes/PC games/tabletop wargames that focus on ships going pchew-pchew at each other, because a good setting may have a defining characteristic or theme while still having enough breadth and depth to support exploring it in different ways.

I suppose the issue is you're saying "But a Dune game would just be Fremen-looking models fighting Harkonnen-looking models with the background as merely a pretext.", and I'm saying "Yeah, sounds great, I'd be happy with that.".

**Manchu**

Passing over any discussion of the specific failings of either of your examples, I think the broader difference is that Star Trek done well may talk the peace and inclusivity talk but walks the two-fisted space adventure walk. Dune practices what it preaches. But again, I'd be down for some Fremen and Harkonnen miniatures. It's just not what I would do with the license, at least not at first.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
One thing I would do is get this artist on board:

http://gorrem.deviantart.com/gallery/33764761/Dune

**Kilkrazy**

I can't remember if Fremen use missile weapons on Arrakis.

**AndrewGPaul**

I don' think the book really bothers discussing it. The Harkonnens use conventional artillery to seal the Atreides troops in the caves they were hiding in, but that's specifially mentioned as being a one-off thing and useless in general. Among themselves, the Fremen tend to go in for ritualised knife fighting to keep casualties down and more importantly to preserve water.

Rainyday wrote:
AndrewGPaul wrote:

What look do you go for? Lynch's movie, the miniseries, or go back to the books and make up your own based on fairly scanty evidence? Do you use the setting just from the first three books featuring Paul (Dune, Children of Dune, Dune Messiah), during Leto II's reign or in the post-Leto era of Heretics and Chapter House? (hopefully no-one suggests setting it during the prequel period!)

How about Alejandro Jodorowsky's Dune? Might be the only way that glorious piece of vaporware ever gets an adaptation.

In that case, can we have a space combat game?

I'd love some minis of Chris Foss' work.

**Easy E**

Isn't the Wyrding Way used as some sort of missile weapon?

I may be focusing too much on the movie (which I love!) and don't really recall the books.

**Kilkrazy**

Judging by the book description I take the "Weirding Way" to be a kung fu style martial art incorporating the kind of neuro-muscular-conditioning and psychological observation techniques involved in the Bene Gesserit and similar mental-physical-philosophical training, that has special techniques for shield fighting.

**AndrewGPaul**

In the movie, there are the special sonic weapons that Paul hands out to his Fremen. A magic sonic gun is easier to show on film than improved combat training and the discipline and fanaticism of the Fremen.

In the books, the Emperor plots with Baron Harkonnen* to bring down House Atreides because the Atreides house troops are becoming dangerously close to threatening the supremacy of the Imperial Sardaukar legions; there's no secret weapons; just that Gurney Halleck and Duncan Idaho have been training the Atreides troops to record levels and the Sardaukar have become complacent.

* Or the Emperor plans to use the Harkonnens as the fall guys to disguise direct Imperial involvement in what should be a matter for the Great Houses. And then, he's being influenced by the Bene Gesserit (who want to regain control of their Kwisatch Haderach program), and by the Spacing Guild, (who want to improve their influence over spice production - as the ones who ship Imperial and Harkonnen troops to Arrakis, they have blackmail material over both those groups) and are worried about ... something ... interfering with their prescience. That something being, of course, Paul Atreides, and their actions are pretty much directly responsible for his rise to pre-eminence.

Oh, and there was a Dune game, put on at Salute in 2014:

https://thelostandthedamned.wordpress.com/2014/04/13/salute-2014-sci-fi/

http://onelover-ray.blogspot.com/2014/04/salute-2014-pics.html

http://wargameterrain.blogspot.com/2013/12/akulas-galactic-armies-science-fiction.html
I've got some of those Bene Gesserit and Spacing Guild minis; I really should get them painted up at some point.

All the miniatures were private commissions, and the vehicles are long-OOP model kits found on Ebay.

**Elemental**

Manchu wrote:
Passing over any discussion of the specific failings of either of your examples

Well, that's a neat way of implying someone's arguments are flawed while dodging away from actual engagement with them.

**chromedog**

Rainbow Dash wrote:

Really Warzone's back!?

Yup.

Sadly, it's being done by Prodos, who also did the AvP game kickstarter - which is seriously overdue to many backers.

**Ouroboros**

Strike Legion by Legionnaire Games (which you can get from Wargames Vault) offers a free not-Dune set of army lists at their website, they also borrow some ideas from the computer games too particularly when it comes to hardware.

Also check this out: http://gasmaskjournal.blogspot.co.uk/2015/08/the-battle-for-arrakeen-part-ii.html

Admittedly this is 6mm not 28mm but nevertheless...

Edit: I was a member of the official Dune forums until they were closed down and a couple of times miniatures companies popped up asking about rights to produce games. They were told that such were part of a larger merchandising rights deal which was linked to a remake of the movie.

**BeAfraid**

In the 1980s, we did do some Dune Minis using some miniatures made by Heritage.

We got around the Lazgun problem because doing so would instantly lose the game for you.

The artifacts of a Lazgun shield explosion are indifferentiated from those of an actual atomic weapon.

And, when someone uses Atomics, the nest of the Landsraad jumps their faction.

So, we just made it a rule that people DIDN'T. You couldn't (something akin to Imperial Conditioning in all the troops against such a stupid move).

The setting is one that cries out for a game, yet it is wrapped up in legal hell, due to the many authors Herbert involved in his will to finish the series, and his son getting testy about some of them.

The setting suffers from many problems of technological development, but overall it tends to have a decent "flavor" to it.

MB

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, from reading Brian Herbet's discussions of his father's writings...

The ornithopters worked like birds, not bugs.

They did not beat their wings like hummingbirds, but more like parrots or Hawks (quick fast thrusts would get you off the ground, but otherwise it was long slow "flapping" or "beating" of the wings (which uses more the tips of the wings).

Reading the descriptions of the thopters makes this clear when talking about how they "pull in the wings" during dives, and then "extend them, and narrow them" to pull out of dives, or to make sharp turns.

The Ornithopters would be beautifully done as birds of prey, with attack ships looking like Falcons, Spy thopters looking like owls, transports looking like vultures or turkeys, and sport-utility thopters looking much like sparrows.

MB

**Kilkrazy**

There's some lovely ornithopter pics in a gallery by a member.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/gallery-search.jsp?dq=Ornithopter&paintjoblow=0&paintjobhigh=10&coolnesslow=0&coolnesshigh=10&auction=0&skip=30&ll=3&s=mb&sort1=7&sort2=0

The model was converted from the Revell kit of the Obi Wan Kenobi starfighter out of Star Wars.

**talljosh85**

If anyone has read the prequels (House Harkonnen, House Atreides, House Corrino; among others) there is a lot more to the warfare than just Fremen, Sardukar and some Atreides body guards on Arrakis. Likewise in the sequels, the Fremen go on to fight other wars off planet, so I think there is enough background fluff to support the factions needed for a successful table top game. Also, the House books were a very fun read.

**Karnophage**

Lasguns and a shield for a quick end to any Dune game.

**Ghidorah**

Dune never really interested me. I doubt I'd play if it were a game. Possibly a demo? I don't know. I definitely wouldn't buy in.

Ghidorah

**blaktoof**

There used to be a Dune card game which was quite good, best if you had multiple players. iirc it could support a large amount of players like 6 or 8, the downfall of the game was that it was best with many players. So not something you can play in 10-30min with 2 people.

That issue would be a feature as you could already have a bunch of factions built in and would not to do much work fleshing them out for characters or units.

**Talizvar**

Dune was awesome, a really long series of books but certainly had enough fluff to build a universe around.

I am unsure it is something that would revive well unless Disney picked it up.

Maybe Blizzard making a new version of Dune 2 by Westwood... oh yeah, they kinda did but less Arab and more cowboy.

I must admit, I always enjoyed the idea of the environment acting as the extra opponent where the area you are fighting in could kill you.
Those darn worms breaking up a good scrap or eating all the combatants made it interesting.

I could say the same thing of why X-com is not a tabletop thing?
Or Thunderbirds or G-force (Gatchaman) or Robotech (Macross)... oh, yeah.

I am unsure there is a big enough demographic out there to enjoy this IP but you never know...

**Vermis**

Talizvar wrote:I am unsure it is something that would revive well unless Disney picked it up.

They're ahead of the curve. They already put a Kwisatz Haderach in the latest Star Wars.

I could say the same thing of why X-com is not a tabletop thing?
Or Thunderbirds or G-force (Gatchaman) or Robotech (Macross)... oh, yeah.

I am unsure there is a big enough demographic out there to enjoy this IP but you never know...

I wonder if it's something to do with setting vs. story? An uncertain 'what if' scenario played out on the tabletop, possibly with generic forces from the property, vs. a handful of beloved heroes who, canonically, overcome the odds and always win. How many fans of the shows would be happy to with the former?
It can be worked around, especially if you are interested in exploring the setting rather than playing pretend as the story's protagonists; though I recall one if the (very few) complaints about the LotR SG was that it sometimes tended towards a hero delivery system. Suggests a bit of a tricky balancing act.

To say nothing of licensing problems.

And the competence of tiny wargaming businesses to make the most of said licenses. (*cough*prodos*cough*)

Not to mention that I dunno if the premise of International Rescue, in particular, easily lends itself to wargames. Though I did notice a Thunderbirds magazine in the shop yesterday, with the new Thunderbird 4 model stuck on the front. Hmm...