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2016/01/08 04:14:00
Subject: Were the primarchs and the astartes necessary?
You could get the same fearlessness with less than half the work using AdMech methods that have a much lower chance of killing the recipient and don't require deals with devils.
In space-fantasy war, equipment far outstrips personal ability unless your character is actually a wizard.
Fallen Angels Chapter Two, Paragraph 3
Zahariel straightened slightly, his hands clutched tightly behind his back and his head held high as he looked into the 'scriptor's lens and imagined himself speaking directly to the primarch and his senior staff. 'I am thus proud to present you with four thousand, two hundred and twelve new Astartes, ready to join their brothers in the Legion's front-line chapters. This represents a certification rate of nearly ninety-eight per cent...
A 2% chance to die, a 98% to be biologically immortal and insanely difficult to kill... I'd take those odds.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/08 04:14:40
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
We must all join the Kroot-startes...
2016/01/08 04:20:18
Subject: Were the primarchs and the astartes necessary?
I am really surprised the emperor just didn't keep his thunder warrior legions as his own personal guard or as another legion to say so that was lead by his favored general (a thunder warrior) to basically be a scouting force or basically the space marine's trainers or something.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2016/01/08 10:00:18
Subject: Were the primarchs and the astartes necessary?
Asherian Command wrote: I am really surprised the emperor just didn't keep his thunder warrior legions as his own personal guard or as another legion to say so that was lead by his favored general (a thunder warrior) to basically be a scouting force or basically the space marine's trainers or something.
Nope, that wouldn't work. The thunder warriors were unstable. They were going to die one way or another, and it's implied that if they weren't killed when they were, they would just become a bigger problem that would be harder to remove as their sanity eroded till the point they probably then became useless drones, at which point the damage would already be done.
Do you want that training their replacements? Their replacements knowing that these guys were their predecessors? Yeah, that's going to be great for morale.
Also, you don't use fundamentally different operators as trainers to the trainees. I.E., you don't have elite coaches, coaching novices.
My hobby instagram account: @the_shroud_of_vigilance My Shroud of Vigilance Hobby update blog for me detailed updates and lore on the faction:
Blog
2016/01/08 21:40:43
Subject: Were the primarchs and the astartes necessary?
Asherian Command wrote: I am really surprised the emperor just didn't keep his thunder warrior legions as his own personal guard or as another legion to say so that was lead by his favored general (a thunder warrior) to basically be a scouting force or basically the space marine's trainers or something.
Nope, that wouldn't work. The thunder warriors were unstable. They were going to die one way or another, and it's implied that if they weren't killed when they were, they would just become a bigger problem that would be harder to remove as their sanity eroded till the point they probably then became useless drones, at which point the damage would already be done.
Do you want that training their replacements? Their replacements knowing that these guys were their predecessors? Yeah, that's going to be great for morale.
Also, you don't use fundamentally different operators as trainers to the trainees. I.E., you don't have elite coaches, coaching novices.
He could have stabilized them he chose not too.
2016/01/09 17:50:07
Subject: Re:Were the primarchs and the astartes necessary?
Asherian Command wrote: I am really surprised the emperor just didn't keep his thunder warrior legions as his own personal guard or as another legion to say so that was lead by his favored general (a thunder warrior) to basically be a scouting force or basically the space marine's trainers or something.
Nope, that wouldn't work. The thunder warriors were unstable. They were going to die one way or another, and it's implied that if they weren't killed when they were, they would just become a bigger problem that would be harder to remove as their sanity eroded till the point they probably then became useless drones, at which point the damage would already be done.
Do you want that training their replacements? Their replacements knowing that these guys were their predecessors? Yeah, that's going to be great for morale.
Also, you don't use fundamentally different operators as trainers to the trainees. I.E., you don't have elite coaches, coaching novices.
He could have stabilized them he chose not too.
He did stabilise the thunder warrior process, they are called space marines. If you are inferring he should have stabilised the surviving thunder warriors, the only way to do so would be to turn them all into servitors.
And that might not have sorted out the issue of them having a purposely put in short biological clock.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HoundsofDemos wrote: Didn't he realize a lot of the men he had grabbed up into thunder warriors were mentally unstable and prone to excessive violance and possible mutiny?
Not that the marines came out much better in the end but I can see why he tried.
I think it's implied that the process turned them into nut jobs just as much as their backgrounds.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/09 23:44:03
My hobby instagram account: @the_shroud_of_vigilance My Shroud of Vigilance Hobby update blog for me detailed updates and lore on the faction:
Blog
2016/01/11 10:00:53
Subject: Were the primarchs and the astartes necessary?
Asherian Command wrote: I am really surprised the emperor just didn't keep his thunder warrior legions as his own personal guard or as another legion to say so that was lead by his favored general (a thunder warrior) to basically be a scouting force or basically the space marine's trainers or something.
Nope, that wouldn't work. The thunder warriors were unstable. They were going to die one way or another, and it's implied that if they weren't killed when they were, they would just become a bigger problem that would be harder to remove as their sanity eroded till the point they probably then became useless drones, at which point the damage would already be done.
Do you want that training their replacements? Their replacements knowing that these guys were their predecessors? Yeah, that's going to be great for morale.
Also, you don't use fundamentally different operators as trainers to the trainees. I.E., you don't have elite coaches, coaching novices.
He could have stabilized them he chose not too.
He did stabilise the thunder warrior process, they are called space marines. If you are inferring he should have stabilised the surviving thunder warriors, the only way to do so would be to turn them all into servitors.
And that might not have sorted out the issue of them having a purposely put in short biological clock.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HoundsofDemos wrote: Didn't he realize a lot of the men he had grabbed up into thunder warriors were mentally unstable and prone to excessive violance and possible mutiny?
Not that the marines came out much better in the end but I can see why he tried.
I think it's implied that the process turned them into nut jobs just as much as their backgrounds.
As well as the unstable, dying anyway, falling into insanity thing... I always took it that killing off the Thunderwarriors was a means to an end in hiding all that had happened during the Unification Wars, killing them so they couldn't talk about the atrocities the Emperor perpetrated.
2016/01/11 22:39:27
Subject: Were the primarchs and the astartes necessary?
Asherian Command wrote: I am really surprised the emperor just didn't keep his thunder warrior legions as his own personal guard or as another legion to say so that was lead by his favored general (a thunder warrior) to basically be a scouting force or basically the space marine's trainers or something.
Nope, that wouldn't work. The thunder warriors were unstable. They were going to die one way or another, and it's implied that if they weren't killed when they were, they would just become a bigger problem that would be harder to remove as their sanity eroded till the point they probably then became useless drones, at which point the damage would already be done.
Do you want that training their replacements? Their replacements knowing that these guys were their predecessors? Yeah, that's going to be great for morale.
Also, you don't use fundamentally different operators as trainers to the trainees. I.E., you don't have elite coaches, coaching novices.
He could have stabilized them he chose not too.
He did stabilise the thunder warrior process, they are called space marines. If you are inferring he should have stabilised the surviving thunder warriors, the only way to do so would be to turn them all into servitors.
And that might not have sorted out the issue of them having a purposely put in short biological clock.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HoundsofDemos wrote: Didn't he realize a lot of the men he had grabbed up into thunder warriors were mentally unstable and prone to excessive violance and possible mutiny?
Not that the marines came out much better in the end but I can see why he tried.
I think it's implied that the process turned them into nut jobs just as much as their backgrounds.
As well as the unstable, dying anyway, falling into insanity thing... I always took it that killing off the Thunderwarriors was a means to an end in hiding all that had happened during the Unification Wars, killing them so they couldn't talk about the atrocities the Emperor perpetrated.
a
And then let the Remembrancers document the atrocities he committed during the Great Crusade? Not likely.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
We must all join the Kroot-startes...
2016/01/12 09:38:47
Subject: Were the primarchs and the astartes necessary?
Asherian Command wrote: I am really surprised the emperor just didn't keep his thunder warrior legions as his own personal guard or as another legion to say so that was lead by his favored general (a thunder warrior) to basically be a scouting force or basically the space marine's trainers or something.
Nope, that wouldn't work. The thunder warriors were unstable. They were going to die one way or another, and it's implied that if they weren't killed when they were, they would just become a bigger problem that would be harder to remove as their sanity eroded till the point they probably then became useless drones, at which point the damage would already be done.
Do you want that training their replacements? Their replacements knowing that these guys were their predecessors? Yeah, that's going to be great for morale.
Also, you don't use fundamentally different operators as trainers to the trainees. I.E., you don't have elite coaches, coaching novices.
He could have stabilized them he chose not too.
He did stabilise the thunder warrior process, they are called space marines. If you are inferring he should have stabilised the surviving thunder warriors, the only way to do so would be to turn them all into servitors.
And that might not have sorted out the issue of them having a purposely put in short biological clock.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HoundsofDemos wrote: Didn't he realize a lot of the men he had grabbed up into thunder warriors were mentally unstable and prone to excessive violance and possible mutiny?
Not that the marines came out much better in the end but I can see why he tried.
I think it's implied that the process turned them into nut jobs just as much as their backgrounds.
As well as the unstable, dying anyway, falling into insanity thing... I always took it that killing off the Thunderwarriors was a means to an end in hiding all that had happened during the Unification Wars, killing them so they couldn't talk about the atrocities the Emperor perpetrated.
a
And then let the Remembrancers document the atrocities he committed during the Great Crusade? Not likely.
I would have thought atrocities on Terra would have more of an impact than those on some no name alien loving space hobo world?
2016/01/12 17:37:12
Subject: Re:Were the primarchs and the astartes necessary?
The emperor was working with what he had when he was taking over earth. He needed to conquer Terra as quickly as possible and then get Mars on board to start pumping on weapons and ships. He took anyone who was willing to fight for his cause and once the dust settle he realized that he had an army that was physically and mentally unstable. It made more sense to start from scratch rather than try to fix them. Sadly he should have taken this lesson to heart with a few of his legions.
2016/01/12 17:53:57
Subject: Were the primarchs and the astartes necessary?
Asherian Command wrote: I am really surprised the emperor just didn't keep his thunder warrior legions as his own personal guard or as another legion to say so that was lead by his favored general (a thunder warrior) to basically be a scouting force or basically the space marine's trainers or something.
Nope, that wouldn't work. The thunder warriors were unstable. They were going to die one way or another, and it's implied that if they weren't killed when they were, they would just become a bigger problem that would be harder to remove as their sanity eroded till the point they probably then became useless drones, at which point the damage would already be done.
Do you want that training their replacements? Their replacements knowing that these guys were their predecessors? Yeah, that's going to be great for morale.
Also, you don't use fundamentally different operators as trainers to the trainees. I.E., you don't have elite coaches, coaching novices.
He could have stabilized them he chose not too.
He did stabilise the thunder warrior process, they are called space marines. If you are inferring he should have stabilised the surviving thunder warriors, the only way to do so would be to turn them all into servitors.
And that might not have sorted out the issue of them having a purposely put in short biological clock.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HoundsofDemos wrote: Didn't he realize a lot of the men he had grabbed up into thunder warriors were mentally unstable and prone to excessive violance and possible mutiny?
Not that the marines came out much better in the end but I can see why he tried.
I think it's implied that the process turned them into nut jobs just as much as their backgrounds.
As well as the unstable, dying anyway, falling into insanity thing... I always took it that killing off the Thunderwarriors was a means to an end in hiding all that had happened during the Unification Wars, killing them so they couldn't talk about the atrocities the Emperor perpetrated.
a
And then let the Remembrancers document the atrocities he committed during the Great Crusade? Not likely.
I would have thought atrocities on Terra would have more of an impact than those on some no name alien loving space hobo world?
Asherian Command wrote: I am really surprised the emperor just didn't keep his thunder warrior legions as his own personal guard or as another legion to say so that was lead by his favored general (a thunder warrior) to basically be a scouting force or basically the space marine's trainers or something.
Nope, that wouldn't work. The thunder warriors were unstable. They were going to die one way or another, and it's implied that if they weren't killed when they were, they would just become a bigger problem that would be harder to remove as their sanity eroded till the point they probably then became useless drones, at which point the damage would already be done.
Do you want that training their replacements? Their replacements knowing that these guys were their predecessors? Yeah, that's going to be great for morale.
Also, you don't use fundamentally different operators as trainers to the trainees. I.E., you don't have elite coaches, coaching novices.
He could have stabilized them he chose not too.
He did stabilise the thunder warrior process, they are called space marines. If you are inferring he should have stabilised the surviving thunder warriors, the only way to do so would be to turn them all into servitors.
And that might not have sorted out the issue of them having a purposely put in short biological clock.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HoundsofDemos wrote: Didn't he realize a lot of the men he had grabbed up into thunder warriors were mentally unstable and prone to excessive violance and possible mutiny?
Not that the marines came out much better in the end but I can see why he tried.
I think it's implied that the process turned them into nut jobs just as much as their backgrounds.
As well as the unstable, dying anyway, falling into insanity thing... I always took it that killing off the Thunderwarriors was a means to an end in hiding all that had happened during the Unification Wars, killing them so they couldn't talk about the atrocities the Emperor perpetrated.
a
And then let the Remembrancers document the atrocities he committed during the Great Crusade? Not likely.
I would have thought atrocities on Terra would have more of an impact than those on some no name alien loving space hobo world?
would that be the atrocity committed on the Auretian Technocracy by the Traitor Horus who plunged the Imperium into civil war and didn't give a monkeys about what people thought after? oh yes it would.....
Terra is Terra, everywhere else it not.
2016/01/13 19:22:18
Subject: Were the primarchs and the astartes necessary?
Asherian Command wrote: I am really surprised the emperor just didn't keep his thunder warrior legions as his own personal guard or as another legion to say so that was lead by his favored general (a thunder warrior) to basically be a scouting force or basically the space marine's trainers or something.
Nope, that wouldn't work. The thunder warriors were unstable. They were going to die one way or another, and it's implied that if they weren't killed when they were, they would just become a bigger problem that would be harder to remove as their sanity eroded till the point they probably then became useless drones, at which point the damage would already be done.
Do you want that training their replacements? Their replacements knowing that these guys were their predecessors? Yeah, that's going to be great for morale.
Also, you don't use fundamentally different operators as trainers to the trainees. I.E., you don't have elite coaches, coaching novices.
He could have stabilized them he chose not too.
He did stabilise the thunder warrior process, they are called space marines. If you are inferring he should have stabilised the surviving thunder warriors, the only way to do so would be to turn them all into servitors.
And that might not have sorted out the issue of them having a purposely put in short biological clock.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HoundsofDemos wrote: Didn't he realize a lot of the men he had grabbed up into thunder warriors were mentally unstable and prone to excessive violance and possible mutiny?
Not that the marines came out much better in the end but I can see why he tried.
I think it's implied that the process turned them into nut jobs just as much as their backgrounds.
As well as the unstable, dying anyway, falling into insanity thing... I always took it that killing off the Thunderwarriors was a means to an end in hiding all that had happened during the Unification Wars, killing them so they couldn't talk about the atrocities the Emperor perpetrated.
a
And then let the Remembrancers document the atrocities he committed during the Great Crusade? Not likely.
I would have thought atrocities on Terra would have more of an impact than those on some no name alien loving space hobo world?
would that be the atrocity committed on the Auretian Technocracy by the Traitor Horus who plunged the Imperium into civil war and didn't give a monkeys about what people thought after? oh yes it would.....
Terra is Terra, everywhere else it not.
And what about the Interex? The Gordian League? The Diasporex, whose last words were "We just wanted to be left alone?" Were those human peoples somehow less human? What about the way that the Mournival butchered dozens of humans, and almost got executed for it, was that also what the Emperor felt needed broadcasting to the Imperium at large?
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
We must all join the Kroot-startes...
2016/01/19 13:46:05
Subject: Were the primarchs and the astartes necessary?
Asherian Command wrote: I am really surprised the emperor just didn't keep his thunder warrior legions as his own personal guard or as another legion to say so that was lead by his favored general (a thunder warrior) to basically be a scouting force or basically the space marine's trainers or something.
Nope, that wouldn't work. The thunder warriors were unstable. They were going to die one way or another, and it's implied that if they weren't killed when they were, they would just become a bigger problem that would be harder to remove as their sanity eroded till the point they probably then became useless drones, at which point the damage would already be done.
Do you want that training their replacements? Their replacements knowing that these guys were their predecessors? Yeah, that's going to be great for morale.
Also, you don't use fundamentally different operators as trainers to the trainees. I.E., you don't have elite coaches, coaching novices.
He could have stabilized them he chose not too.
He did stabilise the thunder warrior process, they are called space marines. If you are inferring he should have stabilised the surviving thunder warriors, the only way to do so would be to turn them all into servitors.
And that might not have sorted out the issue of them having a purposely put in short biological clock.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HoundsofDemos wrote: Didn't he realize a lot of the men he had grabbed up into thunder warriors were mentally unstable and prone to excessive violance and possible mutiny?
Not that the marines came out much better in the end but I can see why he tried.
I think it's implied that the process turned them into nut jobs just as much as their backgrounds.
As well as the unstable, dying anyway, falling into insanity thing... I always took it that killing off the Thunderwarriors was a means to an end in hiding all that had happened during the Unification Wars, killing them so they couldn't talk about the atrocities the Emperor perpetrated.
a
And then let the Remembrancers document the atrocities he committed during the Great Crusade? Not likely.
I would have thought atrocities on Terra would have more of an impact than those on some no name alien loving space hobo world?
would that be the atrocity committed on the Auretian Technocracy by the Traitor Horus who plunged the Imperium into civil war and didn't give a monkeys about what people thought after? oh yes it would.....
Terra is Terra, everywhere else it not.
And what about the Interex? The Gordian League? The Diasporex, whose last words were "We just wanted to be left alone?" Were those human peoples somehow less human? What about the way that the Mournival butchered dozens of humans, and almost got executed for it, was that also what the Emperor felt needed broadcasting to the Imperium at large?
Still not Terra, the birth place of Humanity. SO yes those human peoples are less human. Its pretty bleak in the far future.
2016/01/19 14:25:29
Subject: Were the primarchs and the astartes necessary?
mondo80 wrote: One of origin stories about the emperor was that he was a perpetual who made a bargain with the chaos gods for huge amounts of psychic power, he then flipped them off by not delivering his end of the bargain, all of humanity.
Since perpetuals can be made from normal humans, why bother with the primarchs and space marines in the first place? An army of immortal, near impossible to kill special forces would have caused less trouble than super human killing machines. Power armor can be made human size and there are a wide selection of pistols that can blow up tanks.
Their longevity would have also helped rediscover the lost tech better, imagine if Einstein or Tesla were still alive today.
Normal humans would've accepted them in time and the Horus heresy might not happened.
Perpetuals are extremely rare. Even more so for naturally born perpetuals, like ol' Ollanius Persson. As to why there are not more of them, I don't recall if there ever was an explanation.
As for the Astartes being absolutely necessary, I would say no. But they made things a hell of a lot easier during the Great Crusade.
As for alternatives, the Thunder Warriors were too dangerous and unstable. Expansion of the Genos regiments (some of which continued to serve well into the Great Crusade) was a viable choice. But the Genos troops were still not on par with the Astartes. And during the Imperium's Golden Age, it had the resources to produce Space Marines by the thousands. So, why not go with the top of the line option?
The funny thing is that despite all of their capabilities, the Astartes required the support of millions of ordinary human troops. Even during the Great Crusade.
Proud Purveyor Of The Unconventional In 40k
2016/01/20 06:43:23
Subject: Were the primarchs and the astartes necessary?
Asherian Command wrote: I am really surprised the emperor just didn't keep his thunder warrior legions as his own personal guard or as another legion to say so that was lead by his favored general (a thunder warrior) to basically be a scouting force or basically the space marine's trainers or something.
Nope, that wouldn't work. The thunder warriors were unstable. They were going to die one way or another, and it's implied that if they weren't killed when they were, they would just become a bigger problem that would be harder to remove as their sanity eroded till the point they probably then became useless drones, at which point the damage would already be done.
Do you want that training their replacements? Their replacements knowing that these guys were their predecessors? Yeah, that's going to be great for morale.
Also, you don't use fundamentally different operators as trainers to the trainees. I.E., you don't have elite coaches, coaching novices.
He could have stabilized them he chose not too.
He did stabilise the thunder warrior process, they are called space marines. If you are inferring he should have stabilised the surviving thunder warriors, the only way to do so would be to turn them all into servitors.
And that might not have sorted out the issue of them having a purposely put in short biological clock.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HoundsofDemos wrote: Didn't he realize a lot of the men he had grabbed up into thunder warriors were mentally unstable and prone to excessive violance and possible mutiny?
Not that the marines came out much better in the end but I can see why he tried.
I think it's implied that the process turned them into nut jobs just as much as their backgrounds.
As well as the unstable, dying anyway, falling into insanity thing... I always took it that killing off the Thunderwarriors was a means to an end in hiding all that had happened during the Unification Wars, killing them so they couldn't talk about the atrocities the Emperor perpetrated.
a
And then let the Remembrancers document the atrocities he committed during the Great Crusade? Not likely.
I would have thought atrocities on Terra would have more of an impact than those on some no name alien loving space hobo world?
would that be the atrocity committed on the Auretian Technocracy by the Traitor Horus who plunged the Imperium into civil war and didn't give a monkeys about what people thought after? oh yes it would.....
Terra is Terra, everywhere else it not.
And what about the Interex? The Gordian League? The Diasporex, whose last words were "We just wanted to be left alone?" Were those human peoples somehow less human? What about the way that the Mournival butchered dozens of humans, and almost got executed for it, was that also what the Emperor felt needed broadcasting to the Imperium at large?
Still not Terra, the birth place of Humanity. SO yes those human peoples are less human. Its pretty bleak in the far future.
Yes, the Emperor is advancing the cause of human rights and the value of human lives for the first time in millenia, I'm sure that broadcasting to the entire galaxy his people murdering millions with minimal justification makes total sense
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
We must all join the Kroot-startes...
2016/01/20 11:02:31
Subject: Were the primarchs and the astartes necessary?
Asherian Command wrote: I am really surprised the emperor just didn't keep his thunder warrior legions as his own personal guard or as another legion to say so that was lead by his favored general (a thunder warrior) to basically be a scouting force or basically the space marine's trainers or something.
Nope, that wouldn't work. The thunder warriors were unstable. They were going to die one way or another, and it's implied that if they weren't killed when they were, they would just become a bigger problem that would be harder to remove as their sanity eroded till the point they probably then became useless drones, at which point the damage would already be done.
Do you want that training their replacements? Their replacements knowing that these guys were their predecessors? Yeah, that's going to be great for morale.
Also, you don't use fundamentally different operators as trainers to the trainees. I.E., you don't have elite coaches, coaching novices.
He could have stabilized them he chose not too.
He did stabilise the thunder warrior process, they are called space marines. If you are inferring he should have stabilised the surviving thunder warriors, the only way to do so would be to turn them all into servitors.
And that might not have sorted out the issue of them having a purposely put in short biological clock.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HoundsofDemos wrote: Didn't he realize a lot of the men he had grabbed up into thunder warriors were mentally unstable and prone to excessive violance and possible mutiny?
Not that the marines came out much better in the end but I can see why he tried.
I think it's implied that the process turned them into nut jobs just as much as their backgrounds.
As well as the unstable, dying anyway, falling into insanity thing... I always took it that killing off the Thunderwarriors was a means to an end in hiding all that had happened during the Unification Wars, killing them so they couldn't talk about the atrocities the Emperor perpetrated.
a
And then let the Remembrancers document the atrocities he committed during the Great Crusade? Not likely.
I would have thought atrocities on Terra would have more of an impact than those on some no name alien loving space hobo world?
would that be the atrocity committed on the Auretian Technocracy by the Traitor Horus who plunged the Imperium into civil war and didn't give a monkeys about what people thought after? oh yes it would.....
Terra is Terra, everywhere else it not.
And what about the Interex? The Gordian League? The Diasporex, whose last words were "We just wanted to be left alone?" Were those human peoples somehow less human? What about the way that the Mournival butchered dozens of humans, and almost got executed for it, was that also what the Emperor felt needed broadcasting to the Imperium at large?
Still not Terra, the birth place of Humanity. SO yes those human peoples are less human. Its pretty bleak in the far future.
Yes, the Emperor is advancing the cause of human rights and the value of human lives for the first time in millenia, I'm sure that broadcasting to the entire galaxy his people murdering millions with minimal justification makes total sense
I am not sure where you are going now to be honest. I am saying that covering up atrocities on Terra is more important that covering up those elsewhere. You are saying its a bad idea to not cover them all up?? I agree but I am not sure how that contradicts what I am saying?
2016/01/21 21:49:00
Subject: Were the primarchs and the astartes necessary?
Asherian Command wrote: I am really surprised the emperor just didn't keep his thunder warrior legions as his own personal guard or as another legion to say so that was lead by his favored general (a thunder warrior) to basically be a scouting force or basically the space marine's trainers or something.
Nope, that wouldn't work. The thunder warriors were unstable. They were going to die one way or another, and it's implied that if they weren't killed when they were, they would just become a bigger problem that would be harder to remove as their sanity eroded till the point they probably then became useless drones, at which point the damage would already be done.
Do you want that training their replacements? Their replacements knowing that these guys were their predecessors? Yeah, that's going to be great for morale.
Also, you don't use fundamentally different operators as trainers to the trainees. I.E., you don't have elite coaches, coaching novices.
He could have stabilized them he chose not too.
He did stabilise the thunder warrior process, they are called space marines. If you are inferring he should have stabilised the surviving thunder warriors, the only way to do so would be to turn them all into servitors.
And that might not have sorted out the issue of them having a purposely put in short biological clock.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HoundsofDemos wrote: Didn't he realize a lot of the men he had grabbed up into thunder warriors were mentally unstable and prone to excessive violance and possible mutiny?
Not that the marines came out much better in the end but I can see why he tried.
I think it's implied that the process turned them into nut jobs just as much as their backgrounds.
As well as the unstable, dying anyway, falling into insanity thing... I always took it that killing off the Thunderwarriors was a means to an end in hiding all that had happened during the Unification Wars, killing them so they couldn't talk about the atrocities the Emperor perpetrated.
a
And then let the Remembrancers document the atrocities he committed during the Great Crusade? Not likely.
I would have thought atrocities on Terra would have more of an impact than those on some no name alien loving space hobo world?
would that be the atrocity committed on the Auretian Technocracy by the Traitor Horus who plunged the Imperium into civil war and didn't give a monkeys about what people thought after? oh yes it would.....
Terra is Terra, everywhere else it not.
And what about the Interex? The Gordian League? The Diasporex, whose last words were "We just wanted to be left alone?" Were those human peoples somehow less human? What about the way that the Mournival butchered dozens of humans, and almost got executed for it, was that also what the Emperor felt needed broadcasting to the Imperium at large?
Still not Terra, the birth place of Humanity. SO yes those human peoples are less human. Its pretty bleak in the far future.
Yes, the Emperor is advancing the cause of human rights and the value of human lives for the first time in millenia, I'm sure that broadcasting to the entire galaxy his people murdering millions with minimal justification makes total sense
I am not sure where you are going now to be honest. I am saying that covering up atrocities on Terra is more important that covering up those elsewhere. You are saying its a bad idea to not cover them all up?? I agree but I am not sure how that contradicts what I am saying?
ACtually, that's exactly what you said.
I would have thought atrocities on Terra would have more of an impact than those on some[u] n[b]o name alien loving space hobo world
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
We must all join the Kroot-startes...
2016/01/25 09:18:11
Subject: Were the primarchs and the astartes necessary?
Asherian Command wrote: I am really surprised the emperor just didn't keep his thunder warrior legions as his own personal guard or as another legion to say so that was lead by his favored general (a thunder warrior) to basically be a scouting force or basically the space marine's trainers or something.
Nope, that wouldn't work. The thunder warriors were unstable. They were going to die one way or another, and it's implied that if they weren't killed when they were, they would just become a bigger problem that would be harder to remove as their sanity eroded till the point they probably then became useless drones, at which point the damage would already be done.
Do you want that training their replacements? Their replacements knowing that these guys were their predecessors? Yeah, that's going to be great for morale.
Also, you don't use fundamentally different operators as trainers to the trainees. I.E., you don't have elite coaches, coaching novices.
He could have stabilized them he chose not too.
He did stabilise the thunder warrior process, they are called space marines. If you are inferring he should have stabilised the surviving thunder warriors, the only way to do so would be to turn them all into servitors.
And that might not have sorted out the issue of them having a purposely put in short biological clock.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HoundsofDemos wrote: Didn't he realize a lot of the men he had grabbed up into thunder warriors were mentally unstable and prone to excessive violance and possible mutiny?
Not that the marines came out much better in the end but I can see why he tried.
I think it's implied that the process turned them into nut jobs just as much as their backgrounds.
As well as the unstable, dying anyway, falling into insanity thing... I always took it that killing off the Thunderwarriors was a means to an end in hiding all that had happened during the Unification Wars, killing them so they couldn't talk about the atrocities the Emperor perpetrated.
a
And then let the Remembrancers document the atrocities he committed during the Great Crusade? Not likely.
I would have thought atrocities on Terra would have more of an impact than those on some no name alien loving space hobo world?
would that be the atrocity committed on the Auretian Technocracy by the Traitor Horus who plunged the Imperium into civil war and didn't give a monkeys about what people thought after? oh yes it would.....
Terra is Terra, everywhere else it not.
And what about the Interex? The Gordian League? The Diasporex, whose last words were "We just wanted to be left alone?" Were those human peoples somehow less human? What about the way that the Mournival butchered dozens of humans, and almost got executed for it, was that also what the Emperor felt needed broadcasting to the Imperium at large?
Still not Terra, the birth place of Humanity. SO yes those human peoples are less human. Its pretty bleak in the far future.
Yes, the Emperor is advancing the cause of human rights and the value of human lives for the first time in millenia, I'm sure that broadcasting to the entire galaxy his people murdering millions with minimal justification makes total sense
I am not sure where you are going now to be honest. I am saying that covering up atrocities on Terra is more important that covering up those elsewhere. You are saying its a bad idea to not cover them all up?? I agree but I am not sure how that contradicts what I am saying?
ACtually, that's exactly what you said.
I would have thought atrocities on Terra would have more of an impact than those on some[u] n[b]o name alien loving space hobo world
whats exactly what I said? That Terra is more important than anywhere else and that covering up something bad that happened there is more important than covering up anything bad that happened somewhere else? Yes that's what I said. Your quoting other events that happened elsewhere doesn't make much sense to me in counter to that.
I suggested the deaths of the thunderwarriors (which I believe was potentially by the design of the emperor) was to cover up that which went on during the unification wars on terra.
You went on to talk about other atrocities that people were happy to be recorded, my argument is that they may well be happy with people knowing about an atrocity on some other place than terra but NOT about one that happened on Terra because fundamentally Terra is more important than anywhere else.
2016/01/25 17:04:46
Subject: Were the primarchs and the astartes necessary?
I can see your point of view on terra. wanderer.
People dont really give a gak about those that get slaughtered in the middle east. How ever, If freederica suffered bombing runs daily, freederica would be up in arms.
Its a bit like not giving a gak about the people that live a block away.
2016/01/27 07:25:43
Subject: Were the primarchs and the astartes necessary?
whats exactly what I said? That Terra is more important than anywhere else and that covering up something bad that happened there is more important than covering up anything bad that happened somewhere else? Yes that's what I said. Your quoting other events that happened elsewhere doesn't make much sense to me in counter to that.
I suggested the deaths of the thunderwarriors (which I believe was potentially by the design of the emperor) was to cover up that which went on during the unification wars on terra.
You went on to talk about other atrocities that people were happy to be recorded, my argument is that they may well be happy with people knowing about an atrocity on some other place than terra but NOT about one that happened on Terra because fundamentally Terra is more important than anywhere else.
The Thunder Warriors were culled because they were too unstable and dangerous, not to hide dirty little secrets regarding the Unification Wars. And the fiction of the TWs fighting to destruction at Mount Ararat was to cover up the culling. It would have been bad PR for the Emperor, I guess. Although, I doubt that the war weary population of Old Earth would have given a damn.
The Genos of the Strife Epoch Brigades also got a similar treatment. Only the most loyal and celebrated regiments, the Old Hundred, were allowed to continue to serve into the Great Crusade.
