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MSRC27 wrote:
I would treat flyers as close support for the rest of the army.

Roll for each turn reserves as normal flyer enters at the start each of your turns and leaves at the end of your turn.

Give everyone more options for skyfire and interceptor.

If the enemy has a flyer they can roll when the opposing flyer enters the battle field to engage in a dogfight. Where both flyers pass each other and fire weapons available at each other. (Same time) I don't see a flyer engaging ground targets when there is air support around.

Makes flyers able to engage with other flyer more easily and I think it would be interesting. With transport flyers have them drop off when not engaged with another flyer

By this system flyers be impossible to shoot down except for opposing flyers, which aren't guaranteed use, and Interceptor, which isn't all that common in a lot of armies (and damned near nonexistant in Tyranids, for example). Good luck using Heldrakes if they have to shoot at flyers, because templates.

 ionusx wrote:
a limit on the number that can be in an army outside of terror from the skies. flying hive tyrant spam needs to be reigned in. i propose a 2 flying model limit to any army regardless of config or it being a result of an upgrade. and summoned units count

this also permanently kills daemon flying circus

Things like this make me glad Dakka doesn't actually make the rules for 40k.

 KharnsRightHand wrote:

By this system flyers be impossible to shoot down except for opposing flyers, which aren't guaranteed use, and Interceptor, which isn't all that common in a lot of armies (and damned near nonexistant in Tyranids, for example). Good luck using Heldrakes if they have to shoot at flyers, because templates.

Umm, don't take the Baleflamer. The Hades Autocannon is really scary against Flyers, not including Daemonforge.

Well for starters 2+ armor mostly shouldn't exist.

And most weapons shouldn't have ap2. Oh look... they don't.

Lance845 wrote:
Well for starters 2+ armor mostly shouldn't exist.

And most weapons shouldn't have ap2. Oh look... they don't.

That's not quite fair. While in the game as of now, there is a proliferation of High Strength AP 1/2/3 weapons, even if that wasn't true, a lot of 2+ armor infantry are fairly costed and reasonable. Even 2+ MCs, while undercosted for the most part, aren't totally indestructible. If they all saw a (I will concede, significant) price bump, 2+ armor MCs would be on the bottom of the totem pole of "problem areas."

Fmc's were a problem in 6th edition. That was reigned in.

Now, they're either melee based and are just jump units really, or they sacrifice being able to cap objectives and charge to be a defensive gunboat. Melee based ones require investment to keep alive.

I really think flyers and fmc's are 0 of 40k ' s problems right now. The inclusion of a single wraithknight in a list is more unbalanced than flyers or fmc's.

"a lot of 2+ armor infantry are fairly costed and reasonable"

Glad you think so, as they are slaughtered en masse.

Lance845 wrote:
Well for starters 2+ armor mostly shouldn't exist.

And most weapons shouldn't have ap2. Oh look... they don't.

Take a look at the Eldar codex. 95% of their Weaponry is either AP2/3 or has the ability to become AP1/2.

krodarklorr wrote:Seriously, Flyers are old news, and the fact that people still have issues with them is ridiculous. Every army has a way to deal with them, one way or another. We have bigger issues in this game, such as how DE deal with Wraithknights, or how most armies deal with IK armies, ext. GCs, SHVs, and general power imbalance are more of an issue than something that people lost their gak over from 6th edition.

Robin5t wrote:That >36" rule literally makes it impossible for Harlequins to even hit flyers. No skyfire, and the longest weapon range they have is 24".

AncientSkarbrand wrote:I really think flyers and fmc's are 0 of 40k ' s problems right now. The inclusion of a single wraithknight in a list is more unbalanced than flyers or fmc's.

I'm outsourcing discussion on basic game mechanics for my own rewrite here. I didn't want to post an update to the thread for my rewrite because that thread died last month and I didn't want to link my rewrite in the OP here because I wanted everyone to be on the same page without having to assign homework first as a courtesy. evidently, that isn't going to work, but no one can say I didn't try. If anyone cares to take a look at what I've done, it's all over here.

For the moment Superheavies and GMCs don't exist in my game, but when they do, it'll be an easy fix, honestly; there are a couple problem areas of some Superheavies that are over/ undercosted which have been discussed to death, and after those get patched up, the 25% rule a la Horus heresy is the most elegant solution to the possibility of bringing warhound titans to 1000 point games. I had spitballed other ideas, too like increasing the cost of all Superheavies by some percentage, but that would be redundant and make more work that its worth if the 25% rule has been implemented already. This is in addition to the game itself shifting back towards a 3rd ed model count game, with 15 ppm marines and the like.

The two largest and most tedious design curves I'm trying to implement are to remove most of the randomness (nixx Warlord traits, non- random and balanced psychic powers etc.) and to just cut a lot of fat. I've playtested my game and there are still problem areas with some very basic things that I need to figure out, but the game itself so far is more intuitive and far less convoluted. The infantry to infantry interaction works well, infantry to vehicle interaction and vice versa works well, sans some tweaking I will have to work out for myself this summer, but I put off the implementation of flyers for that reason.

My initial proposal was an attempt to represent flyers in a non random, mechanically distinct way without invalidating large portions of basic core rules, but also representing in itself, a potential vehicle for decision making within the list building phase. If blasts can hit flyers, then every army has some (not necessarily efficient, but some) means of taking down flyers without bringing their own flyers. After that, proper AA can be introduced to the most lacking armies as needed. The current rule from GW is too random and a BS modifier is a no go for now because hit modifiers have become the catch all for every random variable I decide should be relevant. As such, there are almost a dozen different BS modifiers floating around that I need to reign in atm.


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Martel732 wrote:
"a lot of 2+ armor infantry are fairly costed and reasonable"

Glad you think so, as they are slaughtered en masse.

That's not a problem with the 2+ infantry, though. That's a problem with the weapons available currently. If they were less common and properly costed or even just one of those things, 2+ armor would be reasonable.

krodarklorr wrote:So you want to not only effectively kill off Tyranids, but you want to disallow me to take my main for of transportation for my army. Cool, I can get behind that.

You play Necrons. You have other transport options.

Traditio wrote:

krodarklorr wrote:So you want to not only effectively kill off Tyranids, but you want to disallow me to take my main for of transportation for my army. Cool, I can get behind that.

You play Necrons. You have one other transport option that can only be used for your most basic infantry and only at the minimum unit size with no characters attached.

Corrections made in red.

 EnTyme wrote:

Traditio wrote:

krodarklorr wrote:So you want to not only effectively kill off Tyranids, but you want to disallow me to take my main for of transportation for my army. Cool, I can get behind that.

You play Necrons. You have one other transport option that can only be used for your most basic infantry and only at the minimum unit size with no characters attached.

Corrections made in red.

Don't you guys have chariots that characters can hang out in?

Not to mention that your units, especially your characters, are nigh invincible as it is.

Sorry, but I don't feel your pain.

I have only slightly more pity for Necron players than for Eldar and Tau players.

Chariots aren't transports. They're a Chariot with a generic Overlord as the rider.

And you can hardly call an Overlord more durable than Smashfether.