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 Xerics wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Scatterlasers are just as broken as grav in practice. I'd even say the scatterlaser is superior to the grav gun.

And yes, single shot non-D weapons might as well not exist. You'll never kill that mc in time with them, so why bother?

Scatter lasers themselves are fine. Its the being able to spam them that isnt. They have no AP value, cant hurt AV 13+ and has less shots than a grav cannon.

It's also easier to fit into lists than Grav-Cannons.

The Grav cannon kills whatever it wounds unless you have INV or FNP

How many things that are 2+ saves DON'T have Invulnerables or FNP?

wounds based on armor save (and if we want to get into fluff like the previous guy did with his "pulses" Eldar armor is lighter than space marine armor but provides better protection so that more mass = easier wounds is a load of poop)

That's not actually true.

Eldar armor might be lighter than power armor, but it's still all encompassing plate with multiple layers of mesh underweaves when we're talking about Aspect Temples and their gear. Being made of a lighter material does not automatically somehow mean that there is no mass or heft to it or that it can't be used to crush you into an Aspect Temple coaster.

and can hurt ALL vehicles in addition to immobilizing them.

You keep bringing this up.

Who cares? It's a joke to kill vehicles this edition.

I find it really funny that someone complaining about Grav has his sig listing an absurd amount of Eldar. What's the matter, a Marine or Mechanicus player stomp your Wraithknight down with Grav?

If so: Good.

I prefer to stomp wraithknights with a mallet. Yes, I'm that bitter.

You can nerf Grav when Wraithknights, Riptides and all the other OP MCs get knocked down a peg (or 4).

@OP: Single shot weapons suck because they are no longer good at killing vehicles in 7th, and are very very bad at killing MCs. 8th needs to introduce a way for very powerful weapons to cause multiple wounds/HPs for each hit. Its kinda silly that a Riptide getting full force in the face with a Demolisher Cannon will only ever lose a single wound.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Scatterlasers are just as broken as grav in practice. I'd even say the scatterlaser is superior to the grav gun.

And yes, single shot non-D weapons might as well not exist. You'll never kill that mc in time with them, so why bother?

Scatter lasers themselves are fine. Its the being able to spam them that isnt. They have no AP value, cant hurt AV 13+ and has less shots than a grav cannon.

It's also easier to fit into lists than Grav-Cannons.

The Grav cannon kills whatever it wounds unless you have INV or FNP

How many things that are 2+ saves DON'T have Invulnerables or FNP?

wounds based on armor save (and if we want to get into fluff like the previous guy did with his "pulses" Eldar armor is lighter than space marine armor but provides better protection so that more mass = easier wounds is a load of poop)

That's not actually true.

Eldar armor might be lighter than power armor, but it's still all encompassing plate with multiple layers of mesh underweaves when we're talking about Aspect Temples and their gear. Being made of a lighter material does not automatically somehow mean that there is no mass or heft to it or that it can't be used to crush you into an Aspect Temple coaster.

and can hurt ALL vehicles in addition to immobilizing them.

You keep bringing this up.

Who cares? It's a joke to kill vehicles this edition.

I find it really funny that someone complaining about Grav has his sig listing an absurd amount of Eldar. What's the matter, a Marine or Mechanicus player stomp your Wraithknight down with Grav?

If so: Good.

About 25% of my points are in SHV's and GMC's. I collect the models for Eldar. I have all the RT molds that I use for some of my guardians. I also have at least 3 full units of every model in my codex except for banshees, warp spiders, and shining spears but I will be filling them out when i have the spare cash too as I am spending my modeling $ on models for my wifes KDK army. I also like to play Apocalypse games. I also bought my first models in 2007 which was a wraithlord and 4 howling banshees. I had 30 metal wraithguard before their weapons became D weapons. So before you rag on me for playing Eldar like i'm some sort of bandwagoner you better check yourself son. I would actually like the game to be balanced so I can play again but since I am an army purist I only have Eldar and nobody wants to play even when i bring a list of war walkers and dark reapers and guardian squads with warlocks. Unfortunately weapons like the Grav Cannon just make that balance even further away.

 Xerics wrote:

About 25% of my points are in SHV's and GMC's.

With how cheap SHVs and GMCs are for Eldar, that could mean anything.

I collect the models for Eldar. I have all the RT molds that I use for some of my guardians. I also have at least 3 full units of every model in my codex except for banshees, warp spiders, and shining spears but I will be filling them out when i have the spare cash too as I am spending my modeling $ on models for my wifes KDK army. I also like to play Apocalypse games. I also bought my first models in 2007 which was a wraithlord and 4 howling banshees.

So you have "all the RT molds", but bought your first models in 2007...? Do you have a DeLorean with a flux capacitor by chance?

I had 30 metal wraithguard before their weapons became D weapons. So before you rag on me for playing Eldar like i'm some sort of bandwagoner you better check yourself son.

Considering you're talking about Grav Cannons as "having Ignores Cover and 36 inch range", I'd suggest you might want to ask your opponents to stop cheating before you go online and complain about them.

I would actually like the game to be balanced so I can play again but since I am an army purist I only have Eldar and nobody wants to play even when i bring a list of war walkers and dark reapers and guardian squads with warlocks. Unfortunately weapons like the Grav Cannon just make that balance even further away.

I find it very hard to believe that people are having issues with you playing fluffy Eldar or non-power Eldar lists.

But then again, what do I know. I'm just a simple Imperial player.

Wraithknights being GMC's didn't help game balance either but on the same note neither did Imperial Knight Titans and these guys were the first superheavys allowed into 40K games outside apocalypse AND they gave them their own codex allowing you to run a list of nothing but SHV's.

 Xerics wrote:
Wraithknights being GMC's didn't help game balance either but on the same note neither did Imperial Knight Titans and these guys were the first superheavys allowed into 40K games outside apocalypse AND they gave them their own codex allowing you to run a list of nothing but SHV's.

So what?

Seriously, so friggin' what that Knights are able to be fielded as solitary lists?

It's not like you can't get shots on them. Bait the Ion Shield to the front with something tasty, then flank another unit around and get shots on the unexposed portion.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

About 25% of my points are in SHV's and GMC's.

With how cheap SHVs and GMCs are for Eldar, that could mean anything.

I collect the models for Eldar. I have all the RT molds that I use for some of my guardians. I also have at least 3 full units of every model in my codex except for banshees, warp spiders, and shining spears but I will be filling them out when i have the spare cash too as I am spending my modeling $ on models for my wifes KDK army. I also like to play Apocalypse games. I also bought my first models in 2007 which was a wraithlord and 4 howling banshees.

So you have "all the RT molds", but bought your first models in 2007...? Do you have a DeLorean with a flux capacitor by chance?

I had 30 metal wraithguard before their weapons became D weapons. So before you rag on me for playing Eldar like i'm some sort of bandwagoner you better check yourself son.

Considering you're talking about Grav Cannons as "having Ignores Cover and 36 inch range", I'd suggest you might want to ask your opponents to stop cheating before you go online and complain about them.

I would actually like the game to be balanced so I can play again but since I am an army purist I only have Eldar and nobody wants to play even when i bring a list of war walkers and dark reapers and guardian squads with warlocks. Unfortunately weapons like the Grav Cannon just make that balance even further away.

I find it very hard to believe that people are having issues with you playing fluffy Eldar or non-power Eldar lists.

But then again, what do I know. I'm just a simple Imperial player.

I never said I bought the RT pieces new. There is this place where you can find a ton of used stuff called ebay. Might want to check it out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
Wraithknights being GMC's didn't help game balance either but on the same note neither did Imperial Knight Titans and these guys were the first superheavys allowed into 40K games outside apocalypse AND they gave them their own codex allowing you to run a list of nothing but SHV's.

So what?

Seriously, so friggin' what that Knights are able to be fielded as solitary lists?

It's not like you can't get shots on them. Bait the Ion Shield to the front with something tasty, then flank another unit around and get shots on the unexposed portion.

I seem to recall the entire community up in arms about superheavys being in normal 40K games but as soon as imperial knights came out I didn't hear a single complaint from imperial players.

I think certain high strength weapons such as Missile Launchers (when firing Krak missiles), and Lascannons should be one shot. Makes sense, as it's an anti-armor shot at the far end of long range.

I would like to see the following changes made to these heavy weapons though, not just in the Marine army, but I.G., and Chaos Marine alternatives as well:

Missile Launcher's shooting Frag Missiles - Change them to Heavy 2. You're firing a ST:4, AP:6 small blast that rolls a scatter dice. It's not twinlinked normally either, so you've got a 33% chance of actually hitting on target, the rest of the time you scatter at least a few inches on average. I can't see letting there be a second small blast hurt. This only applies to Frag Missiles. Krak would remain Heavy 1.
Let Cyclone Missile Launchers be Heavy 2 when firing Krak Missiles, and Assault 4 when firing Frag missiles.

Multimelta: Make this thing Heavy 2,... OR Leave it one shot and an 'assault' heavy weapon a-la the Heavy Flamer. It's already got the shortest range of any heavy weapon, and you have to be within 12" to really benefit from the melta's armor bane. Let's give this thing some teeth back.

Heavy Bolter: Make this thing a Salvo 3/5 weapon please. That way if you move you get to fire it a decent amount (Same degree you can now), but if you're stationary it kicks out a respectable amount of firepower. Would also let them be worth their points when mounted to a tank such as a Predator's Sponsons, or a Razorback's rear turret.

Grav Cannon + Grav Amp: Make this thing Salvo 2/4. Still able to fire a decent amount, but lets the Heavy Bolter be the fastest firing option available behind the Assault Cannon.

Assault Cannon: Heavy 5, Rending. Same stats otherwise Bring back the Jam if you roll 3 1's in a single shooting attack roll, making it unable to fire any more in a game. It's got a short range, let's make it worth getting within 24".

Heavy Flamer: No changes needed in my opinion.

Plasma Cannon: No changes needed in my opinion.

Regarding other single shot weapons a-la bolters, lasguns, etc. I think they serve a purpose. As the scale of the game increases that purpose becomes smaller in scope sadly.

Just my opinion on that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I think Salvo Should also not allow you to get max shots if you have relentless. Make it if you move at all you get lower shots except on vehicles.

The grav gun is already too weak vs gmcs and vehicles. No grav amp makes it a lot less effective.

I think the biggest problem is that weapons such as las cannons that used to be the best in the game are still priced like they are the best in the game. Things like las cannons need a dramatic drop in price to make them worth taking. Things like guard HW teams having to pay double for a las cannon that will effectively do nothing for the game compared to an auto cannon which will do quite well.

Single Shot weapons got useless from the point on were their dedicated targets got more than one Health Point.

So you need more than one Laser Cannon to kill a tank or a monster.
Even if they get cheaper in points, a weapon with multiple shots that can still kill the same things will always be the better option.

To get those weapons back into the game they should inflict multiple wounds, which would bring them back again to be the best weapons against strong single models

 Kanluwen wrote:
Actually yes, the issue really IS Monstrous Creatures themselves. They retain all the benefits of being infantry(barring the ability to Go To Ground) and are given good armor saves with the ability to claim cover with no real restrictions. The effect is intensified when looking at the Wraithknight, a Gargantuan Monstrous Creature which was given an absurd amount of survivability just by adding the "Gargantuan" classification to it and remaining in the same general points vicinity as its non-Gargantuan variant.

I meant the issue is not the "Monstruous Creature" unit type itself, but overpowered MCs featured in certain armies. The Wraithknight is obviously the worst offender.

Additionally, the reason Helbrutes are walkers?
The same reason Dreadnoughts and Knights are walkers rather than MCs. They're a vessel which the pilot is operating via stimuli, hard-wired into it but still separate.
Daemon Engines are walkers for one simple reason:
There's no physical pilot operating it. Read up the lore on Daemon Engines sometimes, it's the essence of a Daemon bound within the iron.

The reason some things are walkers and others are MCs is because GW wanted it so. Both the Riptide and the Dreadknight are giant robots with humanoid pilots. Hell, even the Wraithknight has a pilot. You can eat up their excuses if you want, I'll pass. Truth is, the game would be much more balanced if the "Monstruous Creature" tag was only applied to monstruous creatures. A giant mechanical robot is not a "creature" no matter how you look at it or try to make gak up in order to justify it. Just bring Riptides and friends down to walker vehicles and collect the steady supply of cheesemonger tears.

Lascannons are still horribly inefficient vs allegedly non-OP MCs, such as the Tyranids.

 Ratius wrote:
With the abundance of multiple RoF weapons (grav salvo, scats, tesla, heck even big shootas) have weapons like MLs, lascannons, sniper rifles, even the humble boltgun outside rapid fire range fallen away in usefullness or potency these days?
Considering most units have a 33-50% chance to miss, then wound and cover save rolls need to be accounted for, is it always better to take RoF weapons?

It's pretty much always better to take high RoF weapons for exactly the reasons you mentioned. This has been exacerbated further with the introduction of HP's for vehicles and the softening of the vehicle damage table, where big heavy anti-tank guns actually are now much worse at actual anti-tank roles than multi-shot/multi-role weapons that can just strip HP's in terms of value per point invested.

 Korinov wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
.

The reason some things are walkers and others are MCs is because GW wanted it so. Both the Riptide and the Dreadknight are giant robots with humanoid pilots. Hell, even the Wraithknight has a pilot. You can eat up their excuses if you want, I'll pass. Truth is, the game would be much more balanced if the "Monstruous Creature" tag was only applied to monstruous creatures. A giant mechanical robot is not a "creature" no matter how you look at it or try to make gak up in order to justify it. Just bring Riptides and friends down to walker vehicles and collect the steady supply of cheesemonger tears.

This. A million times this. I have no problem with carnifexes or bloodthirsters being MCs. They are living creatures that happen to be monstrous in stature. They aren't being piloted a a much smaller creature. If it's being piloted by something, give it an AV. End of story. On top of that, I would add that certain weapons deal d3 wounds to MCs. I could care less what it's toughness is or how many wounds it has... taking a demolisher cannon shell or a prism cannon blast to the dome is going to seriously ruin it's day (if not render it combat ineffective).

Lastly I don't get the Grav Vs Scatter laser debate. You can equip 7 scatter lasers for the price of a single Grav cannon. Quit your whining. Not only that, but it needs a 6 to immobileize a dunestrider or a landspeeder. Your 5 pt scatter laser can glance out a deadnaught in one salvo (no pun intended) with A+ rolls. Not only that but it twin links everything else on the platform.

In the case of small arms, the fact that in some games they literally may as well not exist speaks volumes. If it doesn't have silly-ass special rule attached to it, it borders on pointless if it's under S5 firing a single shot.

More importantly, scatterlasers glance out any AV 12 at a rate of 9 shots per hull point. Normally, this rate would be untenable, but the range and ROF makes this quite comfortable for the scatterlaser. 54 shots = less than two squads of scatterbikes = dead Imperial Knight. Sure wish my troops could do that. All they can do is die right now. The IK is not priced like a unit that dies to S6 guns, whereas the WK is not priced like a unit that can soak up entire armies worth of fire and survive. I don't care what's an MC and what's a vehicle as long as they are priced correctly. Riptides fight like a 300 pt unit, for example.

To be fair, Scatterlasers can only do something to an IK if they have side or rear armor, not front, and if they're shooting from across the board they likely are in the frontal arc. That said, they're still pretty absurd. The Jetbikes getting both a boost to BS4, access to Scatterlasers (and not just Shuriken Cannons), and every bike being able to take a heavy weapon, was an absurd game design decision, the latter two largely apparently driven by the physical product as every Jetbike sprue comes with a heavy weapon.

How hard is it to get side armor on an ik? GWs side arcs are HUGE.

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, Scatterlasers can only do something to an IK if they have side or rear armor, not front, and if they're shooting from across the board they likely are in the frontal arc. That said, they're still pretty absurd. The Jetbikes getting both a boost to BS4, access to Scatterlasers (and not just Shuriken Cannons), and every bike being able to take a heavy weapon, was an absurd game design decision, the latter two largely apparently driven by the physical product as every Jetbike sprue comes with a heavy weapon.

Don't forget the 3+, because of reasons!

Martel732 wrote:How hard is it to get side armor on an ik? GWs side arcs are HUGE.

Depends on the vehicle, Ork Battlewagons have it real bad, but Knights aren't too bad, they're probably one of the hardest, especially with the way most people usually judge it from the oval base, at least in my experience.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, Scatterlasers can only do something to an IK if they have side or rear armor, not front, and if they're shooting from across the board they likely are in the frontal arc. That said, they're still pretty absurd. The Jetbikes getting both a boost to BS4, access to Scatterlasers (and not just Shuriken Cannons), and every bike being able to take a heavy weapon, was an absurd game design decision, the latter two largely apparently driven by the physical product as every Jetbike sprue comes with a heavy weapon.

Don't forget the 3+, because of reasons!

Yes, though they've had that I think forever, but it is weird that they get up-armored bikes while nobody else does.

Even on ths oval base, it's quite wide because of the brb diagram.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:How hard is it to get side armor on an ik? GWs side arcs are HUGE.

Depends on the vehicle, Ork Battlewagons have it real bad, but Knights aren't too bad, they're probably one of the hardest, especially with the way most people usually judge it from the oval base, at least in my experience.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, Scatterlasers can only do something to an IK if they have side or rear armor, not front, and if they're shooting from across the board they likely are in the frontal arc. That said, they're still pretty absurd. The Jetbikes getting both a boost to BS4, access to Scatterlasers (and not just Shuriken Cannons), and every bike being able to take a heavy weapon, was an absurd game design decision, the latter two largely apparently driven by the physical product as every Jetbike sprue comes with a heavy weapon.

Don't forget the 3+, because of reasons!

Yes, though they've had that I think forever, but it is weird that they get up-armored bikes while nobody else does.

They've always had it, but NEVER deserved it.

I quite like my single shot bright lance platforms... maybe thats just me?

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
.

The reason some things are walkers and others are MCs is because GW wanted it so. Both the Riptide and the Dreadknight are giant robots with humanoid pilots. Hell, even the Wraithknight has a pilot. You can eat up their excuses if you want, I'll pass. Truth is, the game would be much more balanced if the "Monstruous Creature" tag was only applied to monstruous creatures. A giant mechanical robot is not a "creature" no matter how you look at it or try to make gak up in order to justify it. Just bring Riptides and friends down to walker vehicles and collect the steady supply of cheesemonger tears.

This. A million times this. I have no problem with carnifexes or bloodthirsters being MCs. They are living creatures that happen to be monstrous in stature. They aren't being piloted a a much smaller creature. If it's being piloted by something, give it an AV. End of story. On top of that, I would add that certain weapons deal d3 wounds to MCs. I could care less what it's toughness is or how many wounds it has... taking a demolisher cannon shell or a prism cannon blast to the dome is going to seriously ruin it's day (if not render it combat ineffective).

Lastly I don't get the Grav Vs Scatter laser debate. You can equip 7 scatter lasers for the price of a single Grav cannon. Quit your whining. Not only that, but it needs a 6 to immobileize a dunestrider or a landspeeder. Your 5 pt scatter laser can glance out a deadnaught in one salvo (no pun intended) with A+ rolls. Not only that but it twin links everything else on the platform.

In the case of small arms, the fact that in some games they literally may as well not exist speaks volumes. If it doesn't have silly-ass special rule attached to it, it borders on pointless if it's under S5 firing a single shot.

Scatter Lasers don't twin link everything else anymore as of the most recent codex that came out like 8 month ago. They have 0 special rules in the current codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:How hard is it to get side armor on an ik? GWs side arcs are HUGE.

Depends on the vehicle, Ork Battlewagons have it real bad, but Knights aren't too bad, they're probably one of the hardest, especially with the way most people usually judge it from the oval base, at least in my experience.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, Scatterlasers can only do something to an IK if they have side or rear armor, not front, and if they're shooting from across the board they likely are in the frontal arc. That said, they're still pretty absurd. The Jetbikes getting both a boost to BS4, access to Scatterlasers (and not just Shuriken Cannons), and every bike being able to take a heavy weapon, was an absurd game design decision, the latter two largely apparently driven by the physical product as every Jetbike sprue comes with a heavy weapon.

Don't forget the 3+, because of reasons!

Yes, though they've had that I think forever, but it is weird that they get up-armored bikes while nobody else does.

They've always had it, but NEVER deserved it.

Every time this is brought up I expalin that they get 3+ because all their equipment is made of wraithbone which is the same material as the wraithguard, wraithlord and wraithknight. All those units have 3+ save. When you are shooting at a bike you are more likely to hit the bike than the rider. So they aren't wearing 3+ armor. The bike has the armor that you have to get through.

 Xerics wrote:

Scatter Lasers don't twin link everything else anymore as of the most recent codex that came out like 8 month ago. They have 0 special rules in the current codex.

They're just super cheap, available on a Core choice that can be taken relatively cheap, and that has an odd save.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:How hard is it to get side armor on an ik? GWs side arcs are HUGE.

Depends on the vehicle, Ork Battlewagons have it real bad, but Knights aren't too bad, they're probably one of the hardest, especially with the way most people usually judge it from the oval base, at least in my experience.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, Scatterlasers can only do something to an IK if they have side or rear armor, not front, and if they're shooting from across the board they likely are in the frontal arc. That said, they're still pretty absurd. The Jetbikes getting both a boost to BS4, access to Scatterlasers (and not just Shuriken Cannons), and every bike being able to take a heavy weapon, was an absurd game design decision, the latter two largely apparently driven by the physical product as every Jetbike sprue comes with a heavy weapon.

Don't forget the 3+, because of reasons!

Yes, though they've had that I think forever, but it is weird that they get up-armored bikes while nobody else does.

They've always had it, but NEVER deserved it.

Every time this is brought up I expalin that they get 3+ because all their equipment is made of wraithbone which is the same material as the wraithguard, wraithlord and wraithknight. All those units have 3+ save. When you are shooting at a bike you are more likely to hit the bike than the rider. So they aren't wearing 3+ armor. The bike has the armor that you have to get through.

Harlequin are riding the exact same jetbikes, made from the exact same material.
Dark Eldar are riding the exact same jetbikes, made from the exact same material.

Neither of those are 3+ saves.

Nobody would have problems with Shining Spears having the 3+ save, they're Aspect Warriors after all but somehow a 5+ save model mounted on a jetbike(+1 armor) becomes a 3+.

I don't care about fluff justifications. I can justify anything with the fluff.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't care about fluff justifications. I can justify anything with the fluff.

"They rev their engines like a Japanese bosozoku gang when they ride, to look tough. Weirdly, it vibrates their bikes enough that the bullets hitting the hull have a slightly higher chance to be deflected in a random direction."