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ITC does allow more than one Imperial Knight.

 slip wrote:
Trazer's local meta could favour the Ion depending on who he's playing If that's the case then the boarder maths might not add up as favourably as the individual maths. Vs certain armies like AM It stacks up well vs the HBC, even perform adequately against their artillery vehicles like the hydra or the basilisk. (Do to range.)

Yeah, in a meta like that, IACs might out perform. I don't know, HBC's seem better on a lot of things though.

 slip wrote:
As an aside, the theoretical geo alpha strike team is so game breaking in tournament meta there's a very good chance ITC will nerf it.

Yeah, we'll have to wait and see, might be a bit of a kneejerk reaction at this time, but it does look pretty broken, I'm all for letting it ride for a minute though till we are a bit more familiar with it. If it's game breaking im sure ITC will tone it down, Invis got the touch up so at the very least I think we can expect that they will shut down the T1 assault portion of the rule most likely.

 slip wrote:
If one fails a nova charge while the other two thrust I would interpret it as the unit failing due to the single roll they make for thrust. Might want to ask in proposed rules.

Alright, I'll hit YMDC with it

 slip wrote:
Also wanted to mention ineffective markerlight use. Once high BS adds the reroll to hit, you get diminishing returns on bonus BS. The combination of rolling a 1/6 + any specific number is 1/36 as opposed to just 1/6. With the addition of coordinated fire, the most efficient # of lights is 4, the average one of your drone units should do. Good synergy!

Assuming every drone unit rolls 2 hits and 2 misses (BS3), heres what we are looking at army wide, assuming every single one of their targets are a different unit (additional bonuses for firing on the same target)

3x Riptide Unit: +1 Marker, +1 Fire Team = BS5
2x Riptide Unit: +2 Marker = BS5
1x Riptide Unit: +2 Marker = BS5
1x Riptide Unit: +2 Marker = BS5

Now thats it for the units with markers, so the other two will be firing at BS3, however there is likely to be at least two units that survived shooting (especially from the single Riptides) so you can assume +1 BS from Co-ordinated Firepower (firing at the same as another Riptide). Obviously we pointed the 3 man unit at the fattest thing they had that needed to die the quickest, if it survived and we shoot another Riptide at that they also get a free +1 BS from the leftover marker. So you can assume the next two are plausibly shooting BS4, but possibly BS5 on one. And this is fairly obvious, but you have full control - obviously it won't always even out like this while shooting markers, but you can make up for lost market hits on a key unit by pointing other marker units at it, so you can direct which units your poor rolls go to, and you can fire Marker > Tide > Marker > Tide etc, so you don't have to predict how well shooting is going to go. Also, on a Nova shooting turn you can make it so that one shooting at the lowest BS is the one who failed his Nova, to maximize efficiency. I think we can assume that while markers are alive, about 2/3's of the army minimum is BS5. It will take some organization in play, but thats cool, I'm quick with doing calcs like that on the fly.

P.S. this is also a very real way of comparing the differences of firepower to taking a couple of multi-unit models when factoring in Markerlights, as opposed to 9 individual Riptides. Assuming the exact same Marker rolls, 9 individual Tides firing 2 Tides at each unit would end up with 5x Riptides at BS4, and 4x Riptides as BS5. Not a huge difference in firepower to be honest but doing it the way we currently are gives us an extra 3x BS5 shooters possibly a 4th, which is about 12 extra hbc HITS on a Hailfire turn (2 of which Rend, aka a couple of HP off AV13/14 or an extra pair of wounds on a WK in a pinch as well), so it does add to the efficiency of the unit which is critical but stops before hitting the point of overkill. I think this list might draw a happy medium between 3x3 man units and 9x1, it gets the firepower bonuses but doesn't completely throw scoring and MSU to the wind. However it doesn't add to the efficiency of the shooting as much as I thought it would and I'm still not convinced that I would play this over 9x1 Riptides, but meh this is an ITC list and 9x1 Riptides isn't possible with formation bonuses, so the trade offs made here are definitely acceptable and don't cripple the list, and firepower IS the key to the list being successful and 12x S6 hits is fairly significant especially since 2 Rend.

As for buying nine riptides, almost I feel like I'm obliged to by this point. I hope I don't see this incarnation on the table. I'm a CC guy at heart though, even if it's been nerfed this edition. Super friends and deathstars are still CC lists at heart, I'd probably go that way for competition. (Also probably easier on my wallet.) My ork list is as competitive as can be as a bikerstar/MSU way that can throw people off, so it's a lot of fun that way. (I think I coulda taken the first riptide list, but now not so much. Shoulda kept my mouth shut. ) Winning hard games is the most fun I have, so an underwhelming faction is okay for casual play. My next army is probably going to be a renegade knight. I kinda want to take one with my boyz.

Yeah, I'm basically a low tier player as well. Nids, a little bit of CSM (not often, and mostly with borrowed models though), and used to play a lot of DE before the new editions made me shelf them and finally the newest dex made me sell them, they are just nothing like they used to be anymore. Nids are the one army that I'll never drop, you probably understand this as an Ork player! So this list is basically my first time ever playing a "top tier" race, however its just so different to anything else out there, that I'm ok with it, and takes a bit more skill to pilot that a lot of those top tier lists, I feel. This list seems like the sort of thing that can play really strong, but if you dropped it into most players hands you could watch it crash and burn. I've played around with it on Tabletop Simulator a bit, it takes good decision making to win with but has all the tools necessary to compete, and it also has an INSANE amount of firepower probably the most firepower potential out of any army list I'm seeing out here at the moment, even possibly Alpha Strike.

As for the models, well, bulk ordering 9 you can definitely find a really good deal if you look around the internet, especially if you aren't necessarily restricted to buying strictly legitimate Games Workshop retail models, if you get me.

CHAøSs wrote:
Hey guys really good discussion!

I just thought I would add that you might have problems with AV 14? I run an invisible Spartan (AV14 5 HP) with Be'Lakor hiding behind it. I do think being able to raise your bs with marker lights will help (and is pretty cinematic), but you still will need more fusion rifles I think.

I also run a Sicaran that eats riptides for breakfast but thats a different story.

Slip the renegade knight is awesome! I am currently converting my Kytan to hold a second gatling gun

I just want to point out, that HBC's can actually put in work on AV14. The maths on the entire army shooting on Hailfire turn is somewhat like 28 HP's of AV14, off HBC's alone, 10 of which are AP2 Pens. Against that invis landraider, they do nearly 6 HP the turn that it makes it into 36" range, 2 of which are Pens. Seriously, the weight of fire here is insane. And thats not factoring in Fusion Blasters (although they don't add much against an Invis unit)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does anyone have a link to a top tier Drop Pod alpha strike list?

 SHUPPET wrote:

Yeah, in a meta like that, IACs might out perform. I don't know, HBC's seem better on a lot of things though.

I agree.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Assuming every drone unit rolls 2 hits and 2 misses (BS3), heres what we are looking at army wide, assuming every single one of their targets are a different unit (additional bonuses for firing on the same target)

3x Riptide Unit: +1 Marker, +1 Fire Team = BS5
2x Riptide Unit: +2 Marker = BS5
1x Riptide Unit: +2 Marker = BS5
1x Riptide Unit: +2 Marker = BS5

Now thats it for the units with markers, so the other two will be firing at BS3, however there is likely to be at least two units that survived shooting (especially from the single Riptides) so you can assume +1 BS from Co-ordinated Firepower (firing at the same as another Riptide). Obviously we pointed the 3 man unit at the fattest thing they had that needed to die the quickest, if it survived and we shoot another Riptide at that they also get a free +1 BS from the leftover marker. So you can assume the next two are plausibly shooting BS4, but possibly BS5 on one. And this is fairly obvious, but you have full control - obviously it won't always even out like this while shooting markers, but you can make up for lost market hits on a key unit by pointing other marker units at it, so you can direct which units your poor rolls go to, and you can fire Marker > Tide > Marker > Tide etc, so you don't have to predict how well shooting is going to go. Also, on a Nova shooting turn you can make it so that one shooting at the lowest BS is the one who failed his Nova, to maximize efficiency. I think we can assume that while markers are alive, about 2/3's of the army minimum is BS5. It will take some organization in play, but thats cool, I'm quick with doing calcs like that on the fly.

P.S. this is also a very real way of comparing the differences of firepower to taking a couple of multi-unit models when factoring in Markerlights, as opposed to 9 individual Riptides. Assuming the exact same Marker rolls, 9 individual Tides firing 2 Tides at each unit would end up with 5x Riptides at BS4, and 4x Riptides as BS5. Not a huge difference in firepower to be honest but doing it the way we currently are gives us an extra 3x BS5 shooters possibly a 4th, which is about 12 extra hbc HITS on a Hailfire turn (2 of which Rend, aka a couple of HP off AV13/14 or an extra pair of wounds on a WK in a pinch as well), so it does add to the efficiency of the unit which is critical but stops before hitting the point of overkill. I think this list might draw a happy medium between 3x3 man units and 9x1, it gets the firepower bonuses but doesn't completely throw scoring and MSU to the wind. However it doesn't add to the efficiency of the shooting as much as I thought it would and I'm still not convinced that I would play this over 9x1 Riptides, but meh this is an ITC list and 9x1 Riptides isn't possible with formation bonuses, so the trade offs made here are definitely acceptable and don't cripple the list, and firepower IS the key to the list being successful and 12x S6 hits is fairly significant especially since 2 Rend.

Really good stuff! Definitive markerlight allocation tactica here.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Yeah, I'm basically a low tier player as well. Nids, a little bit of CSM (not often, and mostly with borrowed models though), and used to play a lot of DE before the new editions made me shelf them and finally the newest dex made me sell them, they are just nothing like they used to be anymore. Nids are the one army that I'll never drop, you probably understand this as an Ork player! So this list is basically my first time ever playing a "top tier" race, however its just so different to anything else out there, that I'm ok with it, and takes a bit more skill to pilot that a lot of those top tier lists, I feel. This list seems like the sort of thing that can play really strong, but if you dropped it into most players hands you could watch it crash and burn. I've played around with it on Tabletop Simulator a bit, it takes good decision making to win with but has all the tools necessary to compete, and it also has an INSANE amount of firepower probably the most firepower potential out of any army list I'm seeing out here at the moment, even possibly Alpha Strike.

As for the models, well, bulk ordering 9 you can definitely find a really good deal if you look around the internet, especially if you aren't necessarily restricted to buying strictly legitimate Games Workshop retail models, if you get me.

Oh man, do I understand that level of faction love. Was saddled with the Ork 2nd edition codex for all of 2nd, 3rd, and alost all of 4th. A ten year span! Started playing at the beginning of 3rd myself, but a 2nd ed codex in 4th was brutal. Yet I'm still here I guess haha.

Yeah, the Riptide list needs a lot of careful positioning and movement to properly minimize damage, but that fire output looks like fun.

It's always worth saving a buck whenever you can. GW definitely puts the squeeze on it's customer base.

CHAøSs wrote:
Hey guys really good discussion!

I just thought I would add that you might have problems with AV 14? I run an invisible Spartan (AV14 5 HP) with Be'Lakor hiding behind it. I do think being able to raise your bs with marker lights will help (and is pretty cinematic), but you still will need more fusion rifles I think.

I also run a Sicaran that eats riptides for breakfast but thats a different story.

Slip the renegade knight is awesome! I am currently converting my Kytan to hold a second gatling gun

The Spartan would almost definitely go down turn 1, the khorne marines over the next two turns. This is just one of those situations where the riptides can actually put out the ridiculous amount of firepower to do it. (Max: 192 Nova HBC shots, BS buffs, ignore cover, rending. Not even counting fusion blasters or the ion tide.) Then the riptides have the mobility with the jump packs, thrust moves, and MSU to control the board.

Be'lakor would put in seious work vs the riptides though, probably take out a few. I'd def take the sicaran if I were you, and MSU your khorne marines for objective control. The riptides would have to dump a lot of shooting at the spartan/marines so it gives the rest of your army the freedom to move around. Still, it would be a difficult match for you, you're more suited to out CCing CC armies and breaking static gunlines.

I'll let ya know how the ork knight looks if I ever get around to it.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does anyone have a link to a top tier Drop Pod alpha strike list?

This one took 2nd at the LVO:



3 Drop Pods have Cent grav, command melta, and the ICs can join either of those two or form their own unit. 36 scouts, 8 lascannon and thunderfire ranged support base. They could probably take out the 3 model squad with their three drop pods, but you wouldn't have to worry about their range firepower so much. The bigger problem would be baord control vs the scout wrt objectives. With any luck you'd go first so you can whittle the down, then deal with the alpha strike after. This would delay your hailfire until turn 2 probably.

 axisofentropy wrote:
ITC does allow more than one Imperial Knight.

You are right! I misread. It's one per detachment. Still nerfed, don't think the nerfed version is too scary vs this list, but thanks for fixing my error.

 slip wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
ITC does allow more than one Imperial Knight.

You are right! I misread. It's one per detachment. Still nerfed, don't think the nerfed version is too scary vs this list, but thanks for fixing my error.

in ITC you can take one detachment of any number of Knights. It's common to see three Knights in that detachment that gives them Objective Secured. That's really hard for many armies to deal with.