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The FAQ will be interesting. We've been having a very contentious debate over at The Warmaster forum about other Librarians in the formation being permitted to manifest at the end of the phase, although I wouldn't be surprised if, in that case, they choose not to address it as the rules are more clear on that.

 Weboflies wrote:
The FAQ will be interesting. We've been having a very contentious debate over at The Warmaster forum about other Librarians in the formation being permitted to manifest at the end of the phase, although I wouldn't be surprised if, in that case, they choose not to address it as the rules are more clear on that.

I struggle to see both side's on this one.

anyone that thinks that empyric channeling lets you cast powers at the end of the phase doesn't understand the difference between permission and restriction.

also, iirc, there are only 2 ways you can reach the end of the phase. 1 is by running out of warp charges to spend, the other is by declaring you will not be attempting to manifest anymore powers.
both of which result in not being able to cast after the point

Well, if we're going to get too deep into that, maybe we should start another thread, so as not to hijack this one, or is there another thread on here already ongoing on that subject we should move to?

But yes, the rules very clearly permit the other psykers casting powers at the end of the phase. A detailed description of just how they do is here:

http://thewarmaster.com/index.php?topic=6835.msg56452#msg56452

It's the ninth post on page 3.

The rules absolutely do NOT permit it. To get to "the end" you have to have no warp charges or to declare you are not attempting any more powers. If you then attempt more powers, you are defacto not at the end.

 Weboflies wrote:
Well, if we're going to get too deep into that, maybe we should start another thread, so as not to hijack this one, or is there another thread on here already ongoing on that subject we should move to?

But yes, the rules very clearly permit the other psykers casting powers at the end of the phase. A detailed description of just how they do is here:

http://thewarmaster.com/index.php?topic=6835.msg56452#msg56452

It's the ninth post on page 3.

"The end" means the psychic phase ends right now. You resolve anything that has the timing "at the end of this phase", but you cannot cast any more powers - as you're simply resolving the leftovers of the Psychic Phase, then move on to the next.

Lets be honest - GW writes crappy rules, but this case is exceptionally clear as to what they mean and what they have written. Claiming that you can cast psychic powers after the END of the psychic phase is simply not going to fly with anyone. The LibConclave gives you a huge benefit, and in exchange you give up the individual casts of the supporting Librarians. That's clearly what they intended and that's really all there is to the written rules.

Indeed.

You cannot conitnuie to cast. If you do, its not the end of the phase.

As I said, maybe we shouldn't hijack this thread with this discussion, but rather carry it on somewhere else.

I will ask though, did you guys bother to read the post Ilinked to? I'm pretty certain you didn't. You guys are not using the different senses and meanings of the word "end", as they are used and defined in their separate appearances in the relevant rules, properly. I ask that you please read that post carefully and objectively before commenting, and if you have more to say on the matter, maybe we should agree to move to another thread?

Yes, we read it. Your argument remains incorrect. I have no desire to debate this again.

Yeah lets not start another thread on this. I apologise for starting it again. It's been done to death already and your argument is not likely to change the outcome.

We can not talk about it if you like. But it isn't fair to say that I'm wrong, not provide any proof or reasoning of that, and then shut the conversation down. That's totally one sided.

If you don't desire to debate it again, then I ask you to take back your statement that I'm wrong.

Furthermore, to pass judgement on the likelyhood of my post changing things without reading it isn't fair either.

We don't have to talk about about it, but if we're not going to, it's not just going to be only me that doesn't get to talk about it.

 Weboflies wrote:
We can not talk about it if you like. But it isn't fair to say that I'm wrong, not provide any proof or reasoning of that, and then shut the conversation down. That's totally one sided.

If you don't desire to debate it again, then I ask you to take back your statement that I'm wrong.

Furthermore, to pass judgement on the likelyhood of my post changing things without reading it isn't fair either.

We don't have to talk about about it, but if we're not going to, it's not just going to be only me that doesn't get to talk about it.

You're incredibly defensive without presenting arguments. This whole post has zero actual content, just whining and accusations of not having read your warmaster post. Just like your warmaster post is nothing more than a content-void of whining about how unfair you're being treated by others who simply disagree with your point of view. Let me point out you choose to link us to THIS post: http://thewarmaster.com/index.php?topic=6835.msg56452#msg56452 , which has ZERO arguments.

"Until the end of phase" means that the condition lasts until the end of the phase. at the END of the phase, you've finished all activities that are described to end the phase, and that includes dumping all remaining warp charges (or having none left) and either being unable or unwilling to cast anymore spells. How exactly do you plan to reach the end of the psychic phase with having warp charges left and without saying "I refuse to cast any more spells or I am unable to do so, therefore I forfeit all my remaining warp charges" - because even if you'd be allowed to cast spells at the "end of the phase", how would you do it without warp charges?

TL;DR: Once you trigger the ending of the psychic phase you can't recover from that. You have to perform the ending activities, which, once these ending activities have finished, leaves you at the end of the phase without warp charges. And since the ending activities include "and the Shooting phase begins" - you're now in the shooting phase.

If you really want to start a new thread on the subject because you feel you have something new to add, then you're welcome to. I'm not trying to stop you having your say, we have read your link. Im trying not to hijack the thread.

Saying that you're not likely to change opinions is not unfair on you because its not based on you or your argument. It's based on my experience having taken part in all the previous threads, and having knowledge of the other members opinions on the subject




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, given the name of this thread, it's possible that the mods would rather we just debate it on here

I've begun a new thread here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/688773.page#8613342

Anyone with anything to say on the matter is welcome to post there.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

nekooni wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:
We can not talk about it if you like. But it isn't fair to say that I'm wrong, not provide any proof or reasoning of that, and then shut the conversation down. That's totally one sided.

If you don't desire to debate it again, then I ask you to take back your statement that I'm wrong.

Furthermore, to pass judgement on the likelyhood of my post changing things without reading it isn't fair either.

We don't have to talk about about it, but if we're not going to, it's not just going to be only me that doesn't get to talk about it.

You're incredibly defensive without presenting arguments. This whole post has zero actual content, just whining and accusations of not having read your warmaster post. Just like your warmaster post is nothing more than a content-void of whining about how unfair you're being treated by others who simply disagree with your point of view. Let me point out you choose to link us to THIS post: http://thewarmaster.com/index.php?topic=6835.msg56452#msg56452 , which has ZERO arguments.

"Until the end of phase" means that the condition lasts until the end of the phase. at the END of the phase, you've finished all activities that are described to end the phase, and that includes dumping all remaining warp charges (or having none left) and either being unable or unwilling to cast anymore spells. How exactly do you plan to reach the end of the psychic phase with having warp charges left and without saying "I refuse to cast any more spells or I am unable to do so, therefore I forfeit all my remaining warp charges" - because even if you'd be allowed to cast spells at the "end of the phase", how would you do it without warp charges?

TL;DR: Once you trigger the ending of the psychic phase you can't recover from that. You have to perform the ending activities, which, once these ending activities have finished, leaves you at the end of the phase without warp charges. And since the ending activities include "and the Shooting phase begins" - you're now in the shooting phase.

I really don't feel that this kind of vitriol merits a response. You obviously haven't read my posts in the Warmaster Forum link because every statement you're making about their content is completely inacurate, as are a number of the assertions you're making about the rules here as is outlined in that same post at the Warmaster. I'm really tempted to demonstrate that inacuracy on a point by point basis, but I don't have that kind of time. You're welcome to come and argue the point over on the new thread I've created here on Dakka that I've linked to just above, but if you do, I ask that you read my posts there carefully before commenting, and as it states there, that your comments stick to RaW, make proper use of English, are logical, as well as remain civil.

My thread here dealing with the "other psykers within 12" issue got locked, but for anyone interested, the conversation has taken some very interesting turns and some new info has come to light, both on this issue and that one, in our discussion over at thewarmaster.com .