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 auticus wrote:
This is where I get off the bus.

I've got to know - for all the people who jumped on the "points are poison" narrative when AoS was first released, whats your reaction, especially if the points-based play becomes the norm? Dejectedly accept it and continue to play? Angrily tell everyone that points will now ruin AoS, burn your sigmarines, and put the video on youtube?

 infinite_array wrote:

 auticus wrote:
This is where I get off the bus.

I've got to know - for all the people who jumped on the "points are poison" narrative when AoS was first released, whats your reaction, especially if the points-based play becomes the norm? Dejectedly accept it and continue to play? Angrily tell everyone that points will now ruin AoS, burn your sigmarines, and put the video on youtube?

I'll tell them that if they want to play Competitive format? Go play in a tournament.

 infinite_array wrote:

 auticus wrote:
This is where I get off the bus.

I've got to know - for all the people who jumped on the "points are poison" narrative when AoS was first released, whats your reaction, especially if the points-based play becomes the norm? Dejectedly accept it and continue to play? Angrily tell everyone that points will now ruin AoS, burn your sigmarines, and put the video on youtube?

I don't think he means that points will ruin AoS - he's been working on Azyr comp since the beginning. I think his concern is that once GW's official system comes out all other community comps will stop in their tracks.

I suspect that GW won't push points that hard tbh. Reckon it'll largely be like it is now just with an official stamp on the comp system (the others will likely disappear).

Dan from SCGT playing with Jervis lol! Guess they had a game once all the business was sorted :-)

Dai wrote:
I suspect that GW won't push points that hard tbh. Reckon it'll largely be like it is now just with an official stamp on the comp system (the others will likely disappear).

They will push it if the economical opportunity presents itself, trust me.

 Bottle wrote:


Dan from SCGT playing with Jervis lol! Guess they had a game once all the business was sorted :-)

I wonder how Dan feels, playing against an opponent who thinks his points system is "well down in the pecking order of what constitutes a good game" and "fighting against the underlying strengths of the hobby"?

The way they introduced this is the best I could have hoped for. I'm relieved they have brought the SCGT guys on board instead of trying to come up with their own thing. The SCGT guys also promote the spirit of AoS (the tournament was scenario and campaign themed) and they're just about the perfect group to have input on this.

Heelanhammer deserves a ton of props. They were one of the main beacons of positivity and hope in the early days of the game, the game has grown because of them, and now they are taking on a bigger role in it.

I understood how to play without points and enjoyed it, but I liked the option comp systems provided as well. Clearly, the lack of any official options for this kind of play put a lot of people off. AoS has been gaining a lot of momentum online and I think this is a good step for the health of the game and community.

I would also like to see even more of a campaign system push beyond just the scenarios in the books.

Edit: And for Dan's sake, I've gotta... ONLY THE FAITHFUL!

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

Dai wrote:
I suspect that GW won't push points that hard tbh. Reckon it'll largely be like it is now just with an official stamp on the comp system (the others will likely disappear).

They will push it if the economical opportunity presents itself, trust me.

Oh, of course.

I don't think he means that points will ruin AoS - he's been working on Azyr comp since the beginning. I think his concern is that once GW's official system comes out all other community comps will stop in their tracks.

Yeah I don't think points will ruin the game. However, by GW officially endorsing SCGT comp, this effectively kills all of the other community efforts.

So thats why I say - I'm off the bus. I'm not interested in having to play with SCGT comp unless I was going to one of their events, and now here locally if I want to play I will have to use SCGT comp.

There are other games out there and I will find one that interests me.

That's a shame to hear, Auticus. :(

Here's hoping you find something else out there. Wish you all the best!

As for me, the points are concerning though at least it's from a established comp system.

I'm hoping this doesn't end up cutting the AoS fanbase in half between competitive players and for fun players.

@VeteranNoob, ah, the ignore button, I was wondering how you could stand plumbing the slimey depths that is Warseer.

If the fanbase doubles while being cut in two it is a big win for GW.

Tournament culture, once it seeps into your community, will do more than cut the AOS fanbase in half. It will choke out and kill non tournament styled events.

Its either get on board or find something else to do with your time.

 auticus wrote:
Tournament culture, once it seeps into your community, will do more than cut the AOS fanbase in half. It will choke out and kill non tournament styled events.

Its either get on board or find something else to do with your time.

Spoken as though "tournament culture" is a bad thing that somehow means you can't play casually or narrative. I think I remember you, you posted a lot on BOLS right? Always posting about how "competitive players" ruined everything? Had a Spartan-esque helmet as your Disqus avatar? Anyways, you're entitled to your viewpoint. I find having SOME sort of balance is going to help everybody (this is true in virtually all games). It won't impede "Hey let's play a campaign" it might just make it a little more fair. To put in perspective I wanted nothing to do with AOS because it seemed like an unbalanced mess, literally pick any old thing you want, plonk it down and tell your opponent to deal with it or feth off elsewhere. GW introducing a points system (or, rather, borrowing one from what looks like it's a big-name tournament) curbs that random "nyah nyah can't stop me from doing this" kindergarten-esque attitude, while still allowing for balanced games AND skewed narrative type games where appropriate.

I am interested in AOS for the first time in, well, ever. My local GW store is talking of a league and campaign, and I find myself actually considering dropping some cash to play in it (and hoping they do it in the summer when I'll have money). All because it looks like some baby steps will be taken to make the game fair.

Hm, good news those are. I'm quite curious to see what the campaign mode will be. I thought the campaign books were exactly this, but hey, I'm always glad to try new ways to play.

Spoken as though "tournament culture" is a bad thing that somehow means you can't play casually or narrative.

If your community is all tournament culture then yes it does mean you cannot play casually or narratively because you can't find an opponent that will play like that.

We had several community initiatives for points. GW endorsing one killed all the others off. Now its either SCGT comp or sorry for your luck.

Great if you are a fan of tournament culture and/or SCGT comp. Not so great otherwise.

I hope you have fun with AOS regardless.

I'm very glad we're beginning to see a GW that responds to customer demand, as there is clearly demand for the ability to play AOS in a tournament format.

That said, here's my at least partially negative take on a GW official points system:

when GW decided to leave out points, fans moved in to create new comp and point systems to make the game fair.

Having been a fan of 40k, I've watched the insane pendulum of points imbalances drive armies from also-rans to champions and back with every passing codex edition. GW is very slow to address issues like these, and so I see Wraithknights everywhere, but I never see a Gorkanaut, just because one codex designer wanted a flying god and the other felt an expensive fragile dreadnought would be sufficient, without points to represent the power difference.

So, I trust fans to make a better system, that is more responsive to imbalances. With GW now supporting an "official" system, I see players quickly becoming resistant to the independent systems in favor of square edged officialness. And, in turn, expect players to be chained to a stogy, imbalanced, slow to self-correct system.

Heelan's involvement is great news, and partially addresses my concerns. But, when listening to Heelanhammer I also know that their outlook is one that favors throwing units out into the banned list the moment GW stops selling it. Even still, having seen the good they've already done for pushing AOS tournaments, I can't think of a group I'd rather have GW ear when putting this together.

Can't help but feel really excited about this info, and what it will mean for the community. As long as they do this whole points-system good it will in my opinion be the best thing so far for AoS.

WayneTheGame wrote:

Spoken as though "tournament culture" is a bad thing that somehow means you can't play casually or narrative.

It kinda does.

When a community of players starts to get the "tournament culture" going, some of them take it way way too far--and it drags everyone else down unless they choose to ostracize those who take it too far. I had what should have been an hour long AoS match(at the longest!) yesterday turn into two hours because of arguments over what amounted to nothing, all because the one guy kept trying to rules lawyer every single damn thing.

GW said all legacy warscrolls will be included. There's going to be a podcast out this week on it with Heelanhammer, Facehammer and Bad Dice, so I think Ben Curry has some involvement too.

I'm expecting that they will be refreshing the pool choices/points cost at least annually so that we aren't stuck with the slow-to-correct system of the past. The more involved those guys are, the more optimistic I am.

 Kanluwen wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

Spoken as though "tournament culture" is a bad thing that somehow means you can't play casually or narrative.

It kinda does.

When a community of players starts to get the "tournament culture" going, some of them take it way way too far--and it drags everyone else down unless they choose to ostracize those who take it too far. I had what should have been an hour long AoS match(at the longest!) yesterday turn into two hours because of arguments over what amounted to nothing, all because the one guy kept trying to rules lawyer every single damn thing.

That's up to each group.

We're a tournament group. We organise and attend tournaments nationwide and anyone trying go all rules-lawyer will be gently warned then quietly ostracized from the community and will soon find he's not getting any games. It's happened to us occasionally, and we even managed to convince one of them to change his ways.

The others have since moved to MtG, X-wing or whatever they feel like playing now. Just not with us.

So yeah, there's such a thing as a laid-back tournament community.

 Kanluwen wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

Spoken as though "tournament culture" is a bad thing that somehow means you can't play casually or narrative.

It kinda does.

When a community of players starts to get the "tournament culture" going, some of them take it way way too far--and it drags everyone else down unless they choose to ostracize those who take it too far. I had what should have been an hour long AoS match(at the longest!) yesterday turn into two hours because of arguments over what amounted to nothing, all because the one guy kept trying to rules lawyer every single damn thing.

That is an issue with the community itself, not with the game. The majority should unanimously oust the minority if they are that toxic. No matter how loud they shout, the minority of a gaming community will always be the minority and subjected to the desires of the majority of the playes.

Now, if the new implementation of AoS is more attractive to the majority of a community however...

Baron Klatz wrote:
That's a shame to hear, Auticus. :(

Here's hoping you find something else out there. Wish you all the best!

As for me, the points are concerning though at least it's from a established comp system.

I'm hoping this doesn't end up cutting the AoS fanbase in half between competitive players and for fun players.

@VeteranNoob, ah, the ignore button, I was wondering how you could stand plumbing the slimey depths that is Warseer.

Heh. The ignore button has been a godsend. Don't know why I didn't use it earlier and only relied on myself to skip names and skim (to me) worthless posts that contributed nothing.

While today the chunks in warseer threads are more prominent than normal it's a different kind of ignore to me. My Dakka ignore list is quite short but these are more antagonistic or mean-spirited posts, whereas the ones on Warseer are more troll or obscenely negative every. Damn. Post. A great tool, I recommend.

What is this SCGT comp that folks are referring to?

Thanks!

 KiloFiX wrote:
What is this SCGT comp that folks are referring to?

Thanks!

Go here http://www.scrollbuilder.com/ and click on the SCGT tab It's a points system

@VeteranNoob, 90% of Warseer posts are usually nothing but complaints. That's even before AoS arrived.

After I saw that Ultimate life form fellow get upset about the red sauce, brown sauce joke-yeah, never going browsing through that site again.

Kudos to you for always being a positive light in a troll cavern, though.

Some great responses in here, it's great to see that the AoS community is open to this - hopefully it will give the game a chance to gain broader adoption! Nice work both by GW and the SCGT guys

 Kanluwen wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

Spoken as though "tournament culture" is a bad thing that somehow means you can't play casually or narrative.

It kinda does.

When a community of players starts to get the "tournament culture" going, some of them take it way way too far--and it drags everyone else down unless they choose to ostracize those who take it too far. I had what should have been an hour long AoS match(at the longest!) yesterday turn into two hours because of arguments over what amounted to nothing, all because the one guy kept trying to rules lawyer every single damn thing.

Careful now - that sword cuts both ways.

When a community of players starts to get the "casual/narrative culture" going, some of them take it way way too far - some use 'tournament' and 'tournament players' as dirty words and look down snidely at anyone who enjoys that kind of thing as though they're immoral and terrible people--and it drags everyone else down unless they choose to ostracize those who take it too far. I had what should have been an hour long AoS match(at the longest!) yesterday turn into two hours because of arguments over what amounted to nothing, all because the one guy kept whining about everything I did, and everything I took, because it offended his sensibilities for what he arbitrarily decided amounted to 'fun' and 'the right way of playing'.

Sadly, I know 'casual at all costs' people who play wargames this way, and they're just as toxic to the community as any kind of win at all cost scrub. We've had posts here since the launch of Aos that have echoed the above paragraph.

There is nothing wrong with 'tournament culture'. Rules lawyering however isn't necessarily indicative of tournament culture as it is poor social dynamics and a Waac approach to 'gaming' the grey areas in the rules, and sadly this kind of scrub behaviour exists in all areas, whether competitive or casual. Trying to nail it down as 'tournament culture' is innacurate if you ask me.

For me, it'll come down to two things; 1) that points remain an optional extra, and 2) I'm hoping that points never make it into print. An online, living resource that gets updated periodically.
That would be awesome.

Let me clear on what I deem "tournament culture"

* all games must be balanced at all times

* scenarios that are not balanced shall never be used

* scenarios that seem balanced but are not because they make unit points inaccurate shall never be used. Ex: unit may be good at pitched battle but cannot hold objectives well, so its points are high for pitched battle but "thats not fair" for the objective mission.

* scenarios that are not seen in tournament play are heavily discouraged

Also you will notice that everyone's builds are very samey. They are the "optimal builds" which renders 90% of what you could see wasted.

That is what I consider tournament culture. It makes story-based gaming very difficult because a lot of story scenarios are *not* balanced.

If everyone could play how they liked it wouldn't be a problem but thats not often the case. You typically must conform to how your community plays if you want to participate.

Personally - I like points. I think points are great. I don't want to be mandated that I have to use the SCGT system though and I don't want to be prevented from playing campaign styled unbalanced scenarios, and that has been an issue I've fought for twenty plus years where I am.