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Experiment 626 wrote:On the other hand, I would direct to the raging dumpster fire that is the CSM range, where almost half our very basic upgrades are completely missing, large chunks are still Finecrap kits, AND, 95% of the entire line is from the early to mid 2000's. (meanwhile, Khorne Berserkers aren't even from this ****ing millennium!!)

That's right, we have an army of models that were already "old", back when the Maple Loafs were still a competitive play-off team!

aha...hah a...aha.... ha...

Keep crying. At least you have plastics.

Martel732 wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
Seriously? ...Blood Angels first turn assault, then Sweaping Advance through your entire army "Rhino-Rush" during 3rd edition was better.

People figured out to block the rhinos with their own vehicles.

It remained pretty solidly dominant... so much so that GW had to revise the assault rules halfway through the edition haha. Even though I wasn't a huge rhino-rusher I remember feeling specifically targeted by the rules update.

part of the problem was everybody complains about how weak their codex is... what gw apparently heard was GIVE EVERYBODY small and large blasts everywhere but ap4 to not hurt space marine sales. buff shooting and nerf the assault distance from run d6 charge 6 (average 9.5) to charge to 2D6 (average 7)

then they decided everybody needs big kits and hordes really cannot counter that add in stomps and that is the nail in the coffin for horde armies

 Gunzhard wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
Seriously? ...Blood Angels first turn assault, then Sweaping Advance through your entire army "Rhino-Rush" during 3rd edition was better.

People figured out to block the rhinos with their own vehicles.

It remained pretty solidly dominant... so much so that GW had to revise the assault rules halfway through the edition haha. Even though I wasn't a huge rhino-rusher I remember feeling specifically targeted by the rules update.

Sirenbombing was far, far dirtier, as outside of Templars (only if they chose the right vow), Witch Hunters & Grey Knights, it was 100% impossible to target the Siren Lord.
Turn 2, boom, Daemonettes as far as they eye could see, who could then consolidate from combat to combat, and each one had Rending back in the days when it was godly. (6 to-hit = auto wound, no save & even S3 models could flip Land Raiders!!)

Seer Congress was simply unkillable, unless you had allied Grey Knights w/Psycannons. (since they ignored invulns back then)
Otherwise, enjoy watching your army bounce off that 60+ re-rolled 4++ unit, which in the meantime would Mind War the juicy stuff off the table, while the Wraitlords/War Walkers Starcannon'ed everything else.

BA's were "over powered" for maybe the first year and half/two years or so of 3rd. Once the likes of Trolldar (and later Kraftworlds), and eventually 3.5ed Chaos, SW's & Tau showed up, BA's were just 'decent'.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
The purpose of horde armies is not to overwhelm the opponent with cheap expendable bodies. The purpose of horde armies is to put lots of easily dispatched mooks on the table so that the heroes can rack up satisfyingly hefty kill counts as they Forge the Narrative of how they heroically triumphed over overwhelming odds.

I believe Jervis recently indicated that they don't view the game so much as a contest between 2 generals, but rather a cooperative effort with 2 directors helping to create a cinematic reenactment of a battle. Well, remember that scene in Gladiator with the chariots vs "the barbarian horde"? Yeah, you're the horde. Except there's no Russell Crowe. Forge that Narrative!

I think that is one of the most insightful posts I've read and helps explain so much.

Why the question? When I played guard, I rather enjoyed it. Being able to be kicked all over the place by the 'elite' armies while still winning on objectives was a suitably fun thing to do. Playing objectives? you have many many objective grabbers. Playing kill points, you have 2 rather large blob squads.

A question: how many models on the field constitutes elite vs. hordes? Personally my answer is 40 models. Below that, you can move them all relatively quickly in a tournament, while above that number the only way to do so quickly is with the use of movement trays or meching up. Where are your goalposts?