Ever finished well in tournaments with a weak codex?

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**koooaei**

ClassicCarraway wrote:
koooaei wrote:
I've won with footslogging orks once. Why once? Because i haven't played footsloggas in competitive games since. I only managed to win cause i won on maelstorm. Every game was an exhausting uphill battle cause every inch and every model mattered. There was a game where i didn't kill a single model and lost 90% of the army. But still managed to win cause the opponent wasn't too involved. By the end of the day, i was completely squeezed and with a headache.
I don't wana play a copy-paste marine or eldar army but i still want to have fun! I think i can do it with a mech list full of MANz. And screw hordes. They suck. Costly, time consuming, hard to play.

It takes a certain mindset to play a proper horde army IMO. You say that "every model mattered", but in a horde, its usually quite the opposite. "Acceptable Losses" should be the mantra of EVERY horde player.

As for an elite Ork army? Don't do it, you will be incredibly disappointed. Orks were never meant to roll as an low-model-count, elite army, and as such, simply don't work when built that way. If building a mech list, I would plan on taking gobs of trukks loaded with boyz (its still a horde list, just broken up more).

I've been playing horde orks since 5-th. Too tired of spending 5 hours on a 1500 game every time. 3 hours is the absolute minimum when you rush the game. And yes, every inch and every model does matter when you face GMC, SHW, scatbikes, sm super-wizard friends left and right.

**Frozocrone**

My mate came first with CSM, but several factors went his way, including taking Belakor and three Heldrakes. In addition to that, my second round opponent was deliberately slow playing which denied me my turn five to score objectives, as well having time called on my third game just as I was about to run onto the objective that would have won me the whole game.

I brought Tyranids w/ three flyrants and VSG pre nerf.

**Mozzyfuzzy**

ClassicCarraway wrote:
Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Runic wrote:
Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Nice misrepresentation of various arguments there Runic. Followed up by the classic hollow answer of "git gud".

Asfar as I'm concerned none of them are misinterpretations and instead actual reasons you often see brought up. The last part was a joke, but I guess I should've used an emoticon to better explain that. Some people manage to play worse codices with competent builds. Others don't. Somewhere between there is something preventing the latter to do this very thing, usually explained by one of the reasons I listed. Often they are disguised as something else, or presented in an evasive manner in order to mask the true reason of why someone can't win with their army, and in the end it's revealed to be something a bit different, most of the time exactly what it seems to be on first glance.

I'll counter by simply stating you made a nice blanket statement with nothing of substance to back it up nor prove me wrong.

It's true however that in larger tournaments the gap widens. However, many larger tournaments also use rulesets that allow for the worst kind of abuse imaginable and aren't too strict on limiting the most overpowered units and combinations. With a stricter ruleset that would nerf some of the top tier armybuilds the results would, ofcourse, vary.

See I was going to attempt to explain those arguments to you, but you've already made your mind up about them, judging from the bolded. So whatever I say next isn't going to convince you.

But I'm going to anyway

So I'll go with the one that irritates me the most "-I dont want to use the effective build, I want to win with whatever I choose. " In an internally balanced codex, you have a choice of options and can work out a myriad of builds and usually have units you like the fluff for or look of. For example, If I wanted to play Elday, I could play a wraith army, I could play a warp spider/fire dragon army, I could play a jetbike army, or even a mixture of those and manage to be fairly successful with any of them, which is fine.

But the problem then comes from the fact that I don't play Eldar, I play CSM. So if I want to play competitively my options are minimum CSM units with either Daemons allies or KDK. Fun fact, I don't like the look of daemons and while I enjoy Khorne, the competitive KDK list is Gorepack (Bloodpack) which strangely enough relies on Khorne Daemons at it's centre.

So yes I'm at fault for the aesthetics I like and the kinds of list I want to run, it's all my fault and nothing to do with whomever "writes" my codex. I should just suck it up, replace my CSM with a minimum sized squad of cultists, an unmarked sorcerer and (in my opinion) the awful looking Heldrake, then pick up CSD to fill in the rest of the points.

So that I can then go and have my arse handed to me by anyone who vaguely knows how to play the game that decided they think Saim Hamm (Hann?) is the best craftworld and that Jetbikes are cool.

/because reasons.

While I get your frustration, that's not what the OP was asking about. He was asking if a weak codex has finished strong in a tournament setting.

In fact, your statement essentially backs up Runic's point. You are saying that CSM are a codex that can't win in a tournament environment because you don't want to utilize all of the tools at that army's disposal (allies, FW units, etc) and/or because some units don't fit your personal preference. In a tournament environment, efficiency will ALWAYS trump fluff and preference.

If Death from the Skies becomes accepted by tournament organizers, CSM could see a resurgence of sorts, because 4 heldrakes in a wing formation would be no joke to all the bike/jetbike heavy lists out there.

You missed my first post in this thread, where I say local tournaments operate differently to the larger ones, having won or come close to winning local ones.

I should also point out that an early 6th tournie had me running roughly the same list get my arse handed to me by a ravenwing list that was roughly the same as it was when I was beating it in 5th.

And before anyone cries "new edition, new CSM codex, should have changed the list, I've already mentioned how I dislike the more competitive Heldrake, guess how I feel about dinobots and mutilators/ warp talons (the talons I was considering until I realised they had no assault grenades).Followed up by fairly early into 6th but you know these are "because reasons" and have little validity in some peoples eyes.

I never said I didn't utilize the tools, I just want a variety of tools as opposed to running what basically every other CSM player has to run to compete, I.e what Eldar can do.

**ClassicCarraway**

Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

I never said I didn't utilize the tools, I just want a variety of tools as opposed to running what basically every other CSM player has to run to compete, I.e what Eldar can do.

Well, in all fairness, Eldar have always been special snowflakes that have multiple power builds, as far back as 2nd edition even. Even now, most top tier non-Eldar armies are still locked into one or two similar builds to be competitive.

**G00fySmiley**

I have done well with orks playing against the meta the advantage of a tournament setting is set lists, when your opponent does not know they will be facing a horde army and it is usually the last thing they are expecting. green tide can do surprisingly well against grav spam and even things like elder by spreading out and giving them no safe place on the board that you cannot reach. Tau still hurts though as they always take volume fire and their overwatch is a bitch

**the_scotsman**

The older and more outdated a book gets, the more base rules changes make units fall out of usability, and the more cookie cutter builds have to be to compete at the top.

**Cindis**

I've won a few tournaments with Tau.