Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Drasius wrote:
That is a notable difference considering that you can generate warp charge more efficiently with a trio of ML2 libbies than you can with a pair of ML3 sorcs.

That's not true, though.

2x ML3 Sorcs, Familiars = 250pts
3x ML2 Librarians = 270pts

That's almost an entire ML.

That's also an additional body, with multiple force weapon attacks, more wounds and the ability to scatter around multiple squads better.

True enough. There's also downsides.

- Extra bodies are more kill points and more expensive to kit bikes on.
- ML3 has some advantages in terms of DtW.
- 3x ML2 is more likely to duplicate powers.
- You can't cast more than 2x either at 2+, so Force has a major opportunity cost. A Sorc might be able to power up with something like Warp Speed.
- Beyond 6WC, CSM gains Shroud of Deceit and Conclave is forced to channel on a 4+.

Conclave is great. But the major advantage above CSM is from Tigurius, and access to every Psychic Discipline plus the Angels of Death supplement. In terms of the original question, making a Knight invisible, it's pretty much a wash.

GW needs to change it's whole mindset about chaos space marines.

IF you go back to the classic fluff and what a chaos marine would represent in the 40K setting it should help you shape a proper chaos marine codex.

Chaos marines should not just be "spikey marines".

Chaos marines as an army/codex should be shifted so that it represents creating a "warband" of hardened elite raider-killers who have fought for hundreds of years, sold their mind/souls to dark powers and been warped and twisted by their home (the warp).

The army philosophy should translate into making it an "elite army" sort of in the way that Grey Knights are: powerful individual models with lots of rules and options but pricey from a points perspective.

CSM warbands should be small but nasty raider forces that strike unexpectedly and savagely and can hold their own:

1. Ready access to infiltrate, outflank, warp gates, etc. And Chaos marine armies should have Dreadclaws as standard.

2. the ability to represent the influence of the warp and the "favor" of dark gods upon themselves (boons, chaos relics, mutations, etc.)

3. stats/abilite/formations that reflect their place as veterans of the long war

4. Options to owe alliegance to a specific chaos legion or chaos god (with associated pluses/minuses and options/restrictions)


Despite all the helldrake/dinobot/chaos knight fans in recent years, some of us old timers still love chaos marines and want them to be just as viable and interesting to play as marines. Go back to basics GW and make chaos marines themselves viable, colorful and interesting from a gameplay perspective.

Such a cool concept and piece of the fluff that has been left to flounder for far too long...

Blood Tithe was pretty good for KDK. Despite the jaw-dropping post-Necron power creep, rules-wise it's been pretty engaging.

I think the actual bottleneck in terms of GW updating anything is is due to the time investment in creating new plastic kits.

You can notice that since Knights are the new hotness, CSM did get access a lot faster than updates to anything older.

What my dakka knight does for my KDK is heinous when allies with Cabal CSM.

My Noise Marines also benefit hugely as the one thing they are pretty seriously lacking (outside of a termicde squad and 2 units of 2 obilts) is anti armor/MC. Swap out the DBC/AGC for the Thermal Cannon/Gauntlet and it it plugs a pretty serious hole in my army for a reasonable price.

Grimoire'd Tzeentch Knight is basically unstoppable with a 3++ all around save and a 2++ ion field save rerolling 1's. Unless of course - Wraithguard.