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2016/06/15 20:37:59
Subject: Re:Senate Approves women registering for draft
Vietnam was not a need, it was a want. If we had ignored Vietnam entirely it would have meant nothing for our survival as a nation. It just would have made it harder to implement our foreign policy agenda. And Vietnam demonstrated the social and political problems with using the draft in a situation like that.
Oh... I don't disagree with that at all...
I was just refuting with the idea that a draft will never happen again. Because of the lessons of 'nam and the proliferation of nukes (spheres of influence!)... that chance of that happening is miniscule.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2016/06/15 20:41:58
Subject: Re:Senate Approves women registering for draft
Asterios wrote: when you can have individuals from a foreign nation on American soil burning the American flag while waving a foreign nations flag, that is just so wrong on so many levels
Why is it wrong? I thought freedom of speech was supposed to be one of those principles America cares about?
and it begs the question where will it end?
Probably about where it is now: lots of talk, occasional small-scale violence, nothing that could reasonably be called a "war".
war is coming to this country sooner rather then later, the question is what will spark that war?
No, war is not coming. Do you understand what "war" means? And that none of these flag-burning individuals are associated with countries or groups that have any ability at all to fight the US in a war?
ever since world war II this country has been losing its Americanism and Nationality.
Probably because every war since WWII has involved the US fighting barely-relevant wars in countries most Americans can't even find on a map, over ideological issues that don't have all that much impact on the average citizen. WWII was the last time we could really say that the survival of the US or our close allies was truly at stake.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2016/06/15 20:46:55
Subject: Re:Senate Approves women registering for draft
Asterios wrote: when you can have individuals from a foreign nation on American soil burning the American flag while waving a foreign nations flag, that is just so wrong on so many levels
Why is it wrong? I thought freedom of speech was supposed to be one of those principles America cares about?
Freedom of speech is for Americans, not a foreign nation what do you think would happen if people went to Mexico burned the Mexican flag while waving the American flag?
I'm guessing not only would they be harmed, but they would also be condemned by liberal groups in the US. think I might go out and burn me some Mexican Flags to protest.
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
2016/06/15 20:50:27
Subject: Re:Senate Approves women registering for draft
Asterios wrote: when you can have individuals from a foreign nation on American soil burning the American flag while waving a foreign nations flag, that is just so wrong on so many levels
Why is it wrong? I thought freedom of speech was supposed to be one of those principles America cares about?
Freedom of speech is for Americans, not a foreign nation what do you think would happen if people went to Mexico burned the Mexican flag while waving the American flag?
I'm guessing not only would they be harmed, but they would also be condemned by liberal groups in the US. think I might go out and burn me some Mexican Flags to protest.
Um... if you're a non-citizen on American soil, the vast majority of the US laws/constition covers you.
It's easier to list out things what non-citizen do NOT enjoy, ie: -can't vote in Federal elections -can't get hired in most Federal jobs (exceptions might be the armed forces) -can't pass a background check to purchase a weapon
So, in your example... everyone on American soil can burn any country's flag, including the American Flag.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/15 20:51:08
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2016/06/15 20:54:44
Subject: Senate Approves women registering for draft
As deplorable as the practice is, not a dang thing we can do about it. Although one could argue the intent behind freedom of speech, as of now, gotta allow it.
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2016/06/15 20:55:51
Subject: Re:Senate Approves women registering for draft
what do you think would happen if people went to Mexico burned the Mexican flag while waving the American flag?
What's your point? Isn't national pride supposed to be about being better than other countries, not resorting to "Mexico is just as bad as us!!!"?
think I might go out and burn me some Mexican Flags to protest.
Well, that sure says a lot about you...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/15 20:56:43
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2016/06/15 21:00:20
Subject: Senate Approves women registering for draft
Until now, if the USA were under attack by the chinese (for example), only the male adults would have been draftees ?
I have absolutely no idea about France.
OT but:I find it funny our two countries opted for two totaly opposed way: the non citizen can be enlisted in your Army, and then become a citizen, while in France only citizens can be enlisted (except for the Foreign Legion).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/15 21:04:34
godardc wrote: Until now, if the USA were under attack by the chinese (for example), only the male adults would have been draftees ?
Correct. However, a non-nuclear attack by the Chinese is a movie plot, not a realistic possibility, so the question isn't very relevant.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2016/06/15 21:03:10
Subject: Re:Senate Approves women registering for draft
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I think this is a wrong move, and not because woman are included, but IMO, the concept of a draft is anti-American, anti-founding fathers and may even be anti-constitutional, as it goes against the sprit of the 2nd amendment.
As a result of that thread on the 9th circuit, I've been re-visting my American history books, especially those regarding the drafting of the bill of rights etc etc
I know I've banged the James Madison drum before, and I'm banging the Alexander Hamilton drum as well, but it's clear from their letters that militias are the backbone of American defence, with particualr emphasis on volunteers.
We all know that the rebels had just defeated one standing army, and we know that the militia concept fell out of favour during the war of 1812, and we know that the fathers drew inspiration from the old volunteer watchmen in England who guarded their towns, but none the less, the point is this:
Madison and others thought that if people were serious about defending the republic, freedom, democracy etc etc you wouldn't have to force a man or woman, to fight to defend his/her nation. Their love of freedom would negate any draft or conscription.
It's a dominant and recurring theme, and I know that 2 world wars changed America for ever, but the 2nd amendment, the mention of militias, and so on, shows the original intent:
Volunteers ready to put their lives on the line because they love their freedom and democratic traditions.
That's why I think this draft is wrong and un-American...
as a constitutionalist, I very much find your thoughts intriguing. However, in today's day and age, the number that would be willing to volunteer would be a much lower percentage than it was during the revolution. Even if another country invaded the US, there would be alot of people, hiding i n bunkers expecting others to do the work for them. Read through these forums, you will see a small demographic that helps back that point up. Unfortunately it is extremely hard to back that up with real data, but look at the polls of people that say they would sign up in the Army now. It is still just the less than 1% of the population volunteering to do so now, and lets face it, not all of them can meet the minimum requirements. Obesity being a very huge problem.
So is the draft necessary to sign up for, I very much think so. Should it be used, only if the poop hits a very big titan sized fan.
I think the all volunteer military you have as of now, is more than adequate, especailly seeing as we live in the nuclear age. If the gak really did hit the fan, then the US military would be drafting coackroaches to defend the nation.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2016/06/15 21:04:28
Subject: Senate Approves women registering for draft
godardc wrote: Until now, if the USA were under attack by the chinese (for example), only the male adults would have been draftees ?
I have absolutely no idea about France.
I don't mean to insult American dakka members, because a lot of good Americans have died defending freedom over the years, and many people are proud of their nation's flag, but burning the American flag should be encouraged. The more Americans who do it the better.
Why? Because it would send out a message to the rest of the world, that we love freedom and our values so much, we're even prepapred to destroy our own flag just to show how much we care about those values. Hell, burn our flag if you want. We won't care. Our belief in freedom of speech is unbreakable.
It would be a very powerful message to the rest of the world.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2016/06/15 21:11:07
Subject: Senate Approves women registering for draft
Do you think, now that women can be draftees, that "Individuals who are born female and have changed their gender to male" (last line of the very interesting document whembly linked) will be soon be eligible for conscription ?
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I don't mean to insult American dakka members, because a lot of good Americans have died defending freedom over the years, and many people are proud of their nation's flag, but burning the American flag should be encouraged. The more Americans who do it the better.
Why? Because it would send out a message to the rest of the world, that we love freedom and our values so much, we're even prepapred to destroy our own flag just to show how much we care about those values. Hell, burn our flag if you want. We won't care. Our belief in freedom of speech is unbreakable.
It would be a very powerful message to the rest of the world.
yeah it would show we have no pride in our country.
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
2016/06/15 21:14:43
Subject: Re:Senate Approves women registering for draft
Asterios wrote: when you can have individuals from a foreign nation on American soil burning the American flag while waving a foreign nations flag, that is just so wrong on so many levels
Why is it wrong? I thought freedom of speech was supposed to be one of those principles America cares about?
Freedom of speech is for Americans
My eyes hurt from bursting out of their sockets.
2016/06/15 21:17:35
Subject: Re:Senate Approves women registering for draft
Personally, I think, even if you may be right, if you have to be against Freedom some week/months/years (the time the war lasts) to defend it, so you should do it. Ok, you may loose freedom during the war, but, if you loose the war, you will loose freedom for ever.
Loosing something you love during for a short period of time is better than loosing it for ever, isn't it ?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/15 21:21:07
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I don't mean to insult American dakka members, because a lot of good Americans have died defending freedom over the years, and many people are proud of their nation's flag, but burning the American flag should be encouraged. The more Americans who do it the better.
Why? Because it would send out a message to the rest of the world, that we love freedom and our values so much, we're even prepapred to destroy our own flag just to show how much we care about those values. Hell, burn our flag if you want. We won't care. Our belief in freedom of speech is unbreakable.
It would be a very powerful message to the rest of the world.
yeah it would show we have no pride in our country.
huh?
You can have pride in defendingsomeone's right to burn the US flag... and at the same time, tell the burner he/she's a douchebag.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/15 21:19:20
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2016/06/15 21:19:40
Subject: Re:Senate Approves women registering for draft
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I don't mean to insult American dakka members, because a lot of good Americans have died defending freedom over the years, and many people are proud of their nation's flag, but burning the American flag should be encouraged. The more Americans who do it the better.
Why? Because it would send out a message to the rest of the world, that we love freedom and our values so much, we're even prepapred to destroy our own flag just to show how much we care about those values. Hell, burn our flag if you want. We won't care. Our belief in freedom of speech is unbreakable.
It would be a very powerful message to the rest of the world.
yeah it would show we have no pride in our country.
On the contrary, it would demonstrate an unbreakable faith in American values: freedom, democracy, freedom of speech etc
and it would rob your enemies of a weapon to use against you.
When the Romans killed early Christians, the Christians remained true to their values and forgive the Romans. Not only did it dismay the Romans, it confused the hell out of them...they just couldn't understand it...
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2016/06/15 21:22:16
Subject: Re:Senate Approves women registering for draft
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I don't mean to insult American dakka members, because a lot of good Americans have died defending freedom over the years, and many people are proud of their nation's flag, but burning the American flag should be encouraged. The more Americans who do it the better.
Why? Because it would send out a message to the rest of the world, that we love freedom and our values so much, we're even prepapred to destroy our own flag just to show how much we care about those values. Hell, burn our flag if you want. We won't care. Our belief in freedom of speech is unbreakable.
It would be a very powerful message to the rest of the world.
yeah it would show we have no pride in our country.
huh?
You can have pride in defendingsomeone's right to burn the US flag... and at the same time, tell the burning he/she's a douchebag.
if I was there i would have been burning the Mexican flag while waving the American flag saying California Does not belong to Mexico, issue is what do you think would have happened? what do you think the liberals would have said about me? as far as i'm concerned liberals are nothing but a bunch of hypocrits.
but lets face it if the Draft is ever called up it will most likely be called up because of a war on American soil. and if women want to fight I welcome them. if they want to be draft dodgers like their male counterpart draft dodgers then Canada welcomes them.
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
2016/06/15 21:25:53
Subject: Re:Senate Approves women registering for draft
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I don't mean to insult American dakka members, because a lot of good Americans have died defending freedom over the years, and many people are proud of their nation's flag, but burning the American flag should be encouraged. The more Americans who do it the better.
Why? Because it would send out a message to the rest of the world, that we love freedom and our values so much, we're even prepapred to destroy our own flag just to show how much we care about those values. Hell, burn our flag if you want. We won't care. Our belief in freedom of speech is unbreakable.
It would be a very powerful message to the rest of the world.
yeah it would show we have no pride in our country.
huh?
You can have pride in defendingsomeone's right to burn the US flag... and at the same time, tell the burning he/she's a douchebag.
if I was there i would have been burning the Mexican flag while waving the American flag saying California Does not belong to Mexico, issue is what do you think would have happened? what do you think the liberals would have said about me? as far as i'm concerned liberals are nothing but a bunch of hypocrits.
LET.THEM.CALL.YOU.A.HYPOCRITE.
Then, respond calming and try to state your position/justification in the hopes you can change their minds.
That's the whole point in hashing out any debate in this "Arena of Ideas™".
If you're secured in your justification, then it shouldn't bother you if your opponent tries to counter it with inane retorts.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2016/06/15 21:53:44
Subject: Re:Senate Approves women registering for draft
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I don't mean to insult American dakka members, because a lot of good Americans have died defending freedom over the years, and many people are proud of their nation's flag, but burning the American flag should be encouraged. The more Americans who do it the better.
Why? Because it would send out a message to the rest of the world, that we love freedom and our values so much, we're even prepapred to destroy our own flag just to show how much we care about those values. Hell, burn our flag if you want. We won't care. Our belief in freedom of speech is unbreakable.
It would be a very powerful message to the rest of the world.
I would agree with you, if the flag was just a piece of fabric. The United States Flag is supposed to be a representitive living body of what being an American means. For many of us, we have flown on aircraft with this living embodiment draped across the coffins of friends while escorting them home to American soil. It is an ideal. So yes, we may have to accept that people burn it, but we do not have to like, or support it. Acceptance and support at 2 different things.
I would like to point to a paragraph from the US code on the American flag.
Spoiler:
§176. Respect for flag No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property. (b) The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, the floor, water, or merchandise. (c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free. (d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker's desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general. (e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way. (f) The flag should never be used as a covering for a ceiling. (g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature. (h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything. (i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown. (j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart. (k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.
If you read para (j) you will see what I mean.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/15 21:54:20
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2016/06/15 21:58:03
Subject: Re:Senate Approves women registering for draft
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I don't mean to insult American dakka members, because a lot of good Americans have died defending freedom over the years, and many people are proud of their nation's flag, but burning the American flag should be encouraged. The more Americans who do it the better.
Why? Because it would send out a message to the rest of the world, that we love freedom and our values so much, we're even prepapred to destroy our own flag just to show how much we care about those values. Hell, burn our flag if you want. We won't care. Our belief in freedom of speech is unbreakable.
It would be a very powerful message to the rest of the world.
yeah it would show we have no pride in our country.
huh?
You can have pride in defendingsomeone's right to burn the US flag... and at the same time, tell the burning he/she's a douchebag.
if I was there i would have been burning the Mexican flag while waving the American flag saying California Does not belong to Mexico, issue is what do you think would have happened? what do you think the liberals would have said about me? as far as i'm concerned liberals are nothing but a bunch of hypocrits.
LET.THEM.CALL.YOU.A.HYPOCRITE.
Then, respond calming and try to state your position/justification in the hopes you can change their minds.
That's the whole point in hashing out any debate in this "Arena of Ideas™".
If you're secured in your justification, then it shouldn't bother you if your opponent tries to counter it with inane retorts.
wasn't inane retorts they were using but object being thrown and fists and feet being used. tell that too the trump supporters who were walking out of the rally or going into it, who were attacked because they supported Trump. so far its Trumps supporters who are adhering to freedom of speech and the protesters who are trying to stop it.
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
2016/06/15 22:50:12
Subject: Senate Approves women registering for draft
SemperMortis wrote: The next step is they need to get rid of the Double standards for physical fitness. I don't think you should be allowed to be slower, weaker and less agile just because you own a vagina.
Slower, weaker, and less agile is in the process of being rebranded as "differently efficient." We'll need to keep it in the name of diversity.
The fitness double standard is never, ever going away. The Marines tried, bless their little hearts, and discovered they'd have over half of all female Marines failing to meet standards...after years of postponement of implementing them and special training to get women up to snuff. So they just quietly dropped the idea.
2016/06/16 00:51:14
Subject: Senate Approves women registering for draft
It looks like it was a political stunt by the GOP that went wrong and now members of the GOP are working on changing the language. Essentially, they are calling a mulligan after attempting to cheat and hitting it into the bunker.
Gordon Shumway wrote: It looks like it was a political stunt by the GOP that went wrong and now members of the GOP are working on changing the language. Essentially, they are calling a mulligan after attempting to cheat and hitting it into the bunker.
What a surprise, they assumed they could generate an awesome talking point about how "the libs / SJWS" only care about quality if they don't have to fight, and upon realizing they actually did want equality and not lip service, are now walking it back.
Well done, as always the chief objective isn't effective running of the company, it's stigginit.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2016/06/16 13:45:38
Subject: Senate Approves women registering for draft
Ouze wrote: and upon realizing they actually did want equality and not lip service,
Well, except in PFT standards, of course.
O BOY YOU SURE POINTED OUT WHAT A HYPOCRITE I AMLOL
Ouze wrote: If they can meet the requirements, they should be able to serve.
Ouze wrote: I agree with Hordini. I've posted in previous threads on this that the only way to do this is to have the exact same test be applied regardless of sex, and have the test accurately reflect the challenges that role is likely to experience. Yes, that means that in some elite roles, a larger percentage of women will wash out, but it's possible for a fair and reasonably test to generate sexist-appearing results without actually being sexist - that's just how biology works. The reasons this has never worked previously is because of a leadership failure in Congress, leaning on the pentagon to juke the stats.
Ouze wrote: I think it's great. I've always felt that all roles should be open to women, and that the standards (as long as they reflect what is actually required in the real world in that role) should not be relaxed one bit. I'm glad that didn't happen here, and that they were able to pass it on their own merits.
Equality means equality, be it selective service being compulsory, be it opportunities, be it whatever.
Ouze wrote: Not very many women will qualify; but that's OK. The standards should reflect the realities of actual ground combat requirements, and the goal is to be equal opportunities, not equal outcomes.
It would be cool if a country that constantly bragged about how exceptional it is could get to where Israel was 15 years ago.
CptJake wrote: I suspect if you decide to go with 'use the current male standard' the number of females in the military would drop. Drastically. But that would be fair, right?
If the number of push-ups currently required for men realistically matches the level of physical fitness required in a combat role, then yes, it would be fair; even if it meant only a small number of women were able to meet that standard. Mind blown, right?
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2016/06/17 04:13:58
Subject: Re:Senate Approves women registering for draft
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