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 Xathrodox86 wrote:
Chaos is more than just the Four, and once you're devoted to it, you're truly "free" [...] from the shackles of obedience

I'm going to sit here and laugh. If I pass out, don't wake me up or draw silly things on my face with a marker please.

Seriously, the gods of chaos expect just as much obedience from their supporters as the Imperium does, and use various often cruel and torturous methods in order to get it, just like the Imperium.

Again, the Night Lords. They just ran around and did their own thing. They had one Khorne guy on the whole ship and he was just one of the Marines.

What I've found over the years of playing this game, is: If you don't the fluff/background of an army or faction wait a little gdub always changes it.

I've read that the only sizable Chaos Marine Legion left is the Word Bearers (see above- ) Generally, most other Chaos Marines are loosely banded together groups. They're selfish, hate each other but band together because the can raid bigger and better targets as a group. Chaos doesn't have room for the weak. They're a bunch of bullies. If there is any sense of brotherhood its a 10k year of memory. I'm sure most of these guys' minds have degenerated pretty badly.

On a side note, many years ago someone wrote a Chaos Marine diary that was actually pretty funny. If you search for it you might find pieces posted on forums.

 Melissia wrote:

I'm going to sit here and laugh. If I pass out, don't wake me up or draw silly things on my face with a marker please.

Seriously, the gods of chaos expect just as much obedience from their supporters as the Imperium does, and use various often cruel and torturous methods in order to get it, just like the Imperium.

"Blasphemy 'gainst the lords of chaos? The arch-blasphemers themselves? Thou art a wit, Sir Kurt."

You can serve chaos in a multitude of ways. There can be foppish, cowardly, servants of Khorne. Servants of Slaanesh red in tooth and claw. Servants of Tzeentch, like Ahriman who freeze one perfect moment of change. And servants of Nurgle who serve perpetual diarrheal flux.

Each god of chaos is a primal urge expressed in multifarious ways. They are freedom, but it is a freedom that destroys. They are enlightenment, but an enlightenment that brings annihilation.

(Neckbeard recollections not guaranteed to match current fluff)

Chaos Marines exist just to stroke SM player egos as they vanquish big bad chaos marines.

Even with the supplements, CSM can not compete and are heavily handicapped by old design philosophy from 4th ed combat when you can consolidate into combat after winning the last combat therby always being locked in combat and never shot at.

"Oh but CSM get to have marks, I wish i had +1T" CSM does get marks but we have to pay points for them. They are not like free chapter tactics.

I got into Chaos when their background was this murky semi-mythical war long ago between angels, to encounter the rare veteran of this war was to encounter mankinds biggest threat.

Now the HH has been fleshed out into a macho angst ridden manual on how to fail at parenting and CSM have been relegated to bolt shell catchers for every joe-noname chapter in the imperium. Yeah, I'd say their flavour has been irreparably destroyed.

It would be very fluffy if Chaos Marines became so rare they become only available as Champions and special gunners for Cultists blobs.

They have always had the 1 Champion of Chaos Marine lead a group of 20 cultists since dawn of war. Now all they need is for every 5 cultists, 1 cultist can be upgraded to a marine and carry a special gun. It would look like buying 10 cultists for 50pts. Then you upgrade the champion to a marine for 13 points. Then you can also upgrade 2 cultists into 2 marines for 8 points each and those marines can carrry flamer, plasma, meltaguns or any heavy weapons for x points. its still 2 special per 10 or 1 special and 1 heavy gun per 10. At max you could have 28 cultists and 7 marines (1 champ+6 marines (6 special guns or 3 special guns +3 heavy guns)). In addition if you must buy the same marks for every model in the unit if you choose to have any marks at all. So no buying MoN for just the cultists to match T4 marines.

The Champion would boost the LD. He can also carry a melta bomb and power weapon for x points unlike the cultist champion who only gets a shot gun.

Instead of having 2 cultists carry 2 flamers or 1 heavy stubber, you can now have 2 marine havoc to carry 2 special guns or 1 special and 1 heavy.

You can now match chaos marine special/heavy firepower compared to loyalist marines. But the trade off is majority toughness 3 due to more cultists than marines. You wont have enough bolters but who cares about bolters?

For the heavy support havoc squad, you can have the 5 marines (champ+4 heavy weapons) puchase additional cultists as meat shields. If you buy 4 cultists then majority toughness is 4 as you have 5 marines.

For assault/raptors this unfortunately wont work since there are no jump pack cultists.

But for Khorne Beserkers, i would imagine a squad of 5 khorne Berserkers (1 skull champ+ 2 kb can carry power weapons and plasma pistols+2 more kb can carry chain axes) can purchase additional cultists as meat shields. The best part is that KB are fearless so the cultists also become fearless.

Same thing can be done with Chosen, Noise and Plague Marines.

For thousand sons, it would be interesting to have a cheaper rogue psycher than an aspiring sorcerer. There would be a mix of rubric marines and cultists.

Also a army rule, the cultists can look out sir for the marines in thier group even if they are not the ic or sergeant.

 -v10mega wrote:
Do chaos space marines actually care for their chaos population? Do they even care about their other battle brothers, or are they all greedy ? I really want to believe that there is some chaos faction out there that think that the imperium is doing the wrong thing and chaos is the right thing for humanity. and they would take bullets for their battle brothers, and they would have pride in their warband/ legion. is there such a thing?

The thing here is to separate the long war from the chaos gods and their cults.
The long war is the civil war continued. When a chaos space marine raid the imperium, strikes at it's strength and tries to tear it down, they are fighting the long war- continuing the civil war that Horus started.
Old rivalries, agendas and goals come into play as Traitors attack loyalist successors of legions who they hate particularly, destroy the works and achievements of individuals they once fought against and generally act as bitter malcontents.
There is another aspect to the long war- Empire building. Chaos raid but also conquers worlds. The Sabbat worlds crusade was formed to reclaim worlds taken by chaos armies. Some CSM, particularly Abaddon are interested in ruling a new Imperum. Remember that the CSM see the Emperor as a false god, and the Chaos gods are demonstrably real. Some want to conquer as a service to mankind- to free the Imperium from its ignorance and oppression. There is a whole spectrum of interests- and chaos marines can go through all the stages- from a genuine desire to help others to self interest and selflish power gathering.

The Chaos Gods themselves just want service. The CSM will bargain with the gods for power or will worship them outright as divine powers worthy of worship. The cults tend to get pulled away from the long war and tied up in the god's games- tearing down rival powers. A rival power common to all is the God Emperor and so even the most self obsessed tzeentchian cultist or hate fuelled berzerker will eventually make their way into realspace to tear down a cathedral to Him on Terra.

This is the duality of the CSM- the long war with concrete military goals and the Chaos gods and their metaphysical games and objectives.
Atop this you have the ambition of various champions, the callous nature of many who serve chaos vs the old ties of legion and brotherhood, the slide into insanity and paranoia due to living in Hell.

Semi Noble anti-heroes to moustache twirling villains, nihilistic killers to dark paladins and everything in between.

Is there any good books about the Emperor's Children?

There's a rather good short story called "In Wolf's Clothing" which is about a Space Wolves kill-pack who manage to run Lucius the Eternal to ground. This does not end well.

There's a deeply badass Emperor's Children in Pariah, and (obviously) in the Kharn series.

Most appearances by the Children are just as antagonists, though. I can't think of any Protagonist books off the top of my head.

Zitpicker Zorn wrote:
You can serve chaos in a multitude of ways.

But more likely than not you'll just be a slave to be tortured and sacrificed for the amusement of the chaos gods and their chosen.

You're comparing the common dreg of the Imperium to the top tier servants of Chaos and pretending that somehow the comparison is apt and valid.

I don't feel like the Imperium is somehow magically free of Chaos. After all, the basic pillar of 40k mythology is:

"It is the 41st Millennium. For more than a hundred centuries the Emperor of Mankind has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the master of mankind by the will of the gods and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies."

The Imperium was meant to be a secular, golden age of Humanity. Instead it's a war-torn, stagnating, religio-fascist perversion of the Emperor's intentions. Which is presuming he wanted the former, rather than settled for the latter in the hope of preserving humanity from the gods according to the Outcast Dead. It seems ideal for each of the Four Powers, and even Humanity's last weapon against the gods, the Grey Knights, are up to their necks in the very stuff of Chaos as they actively engage in sorcery.

 Melissia wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
Chaos is more than just the Four, and once you're devoted to it, you're truly "free" [...] from the shackles of obedience

I'm going to sit here and laugh. If I pass out, don't wake me up or draw silly things on my face with a marker please.

Seriously, the gods of chaos expect just as much obedience from their supporters as the Imperium does, and use various often cruel and torturous methods in order to get it, just like the Imperium.

Laughter is good for your health, so feel free and have a good laugh.

Just remember that Chaos cannot be defined as it is by definition... chaotic. So yes, of course a servant of Khorne will be devoted and thus beholden to the Blood God but it's a completely different kind of obedience, than that of an Emperor-loving man. In fact a normal, uncorrupted human can't even comprehenhd what it truly means to serve one of the Gods of Chaos since this is so inhuman and beyond our scope of perception.

Now where's my marker...

If you read the CSM fluff, there are warbands of CSM who swear no allegiance to any Chaos gods nor to the Emperor. It says something along the lines of "they are almost inevitably corrupted by the Chaos gods due to their programming toward devotion to something" or something similar. In my mind, this means there are probably groups of CSM who have rejected the fascist Imperium for its own flaws, not due to any inherent corruption. Perhaps a group of space marines were ordered to purge a peaceful xenos species, and refused? They could have devoted themselves to fighting the loyalists for unselfish reasons, is all I'm saying.

Then there's Nurgle. Grandfather Nurgle loves you! Just accept his pestilential embrace, and he will grant you the constitution to survive any infection! Become host to his millions of microbial minions, and you will be adorned with colorful fungal blooms that will make you as beautiful as he! Worried about dying before your time? Worry no more! His loyal servant Typhus will raise you back up to feel His loving embrace once more!

MegaVikingMan wrote:
If you read the CSM fluff, there are warbands of CSM who swear no allegiance to any Chaos gods nor to the Emperor. It says something along the lines of "they are almost inevitably corrupted by the Chaos gods due to their programming toward devotion to something" or something similar. In my mind, this means there are probably groups of CSM who have rejected the fascist Imperium for its own flaws, not due to any inherent corruption. Perhaps a group of space marines were ordered to purge a peaceful xenos species, and refused? They could have devoted themselves to fighting the loyalists for unselfish reasons, is all I'm saying.

Then there's Nurgle. Grandfather Nurgle loves you! Just accept his pestilential embrace, and he will grant you the constitution to survive any infection! Become host to his millions of microbial minions, and you will be adorned with colorful fungal blooms that will make you as beautiful as he! Worried about dying before your time? Worry no more! His loyal servant Typhus will raise you back up to feel His loving embrace once more!

Something the maligned 4th ed codex did right is explain the path of a renegade.
Marines are manufactured killers conditioned and brainwashed with ideas of loyalty and honour. If that conditioning starts to slip, they'll find themselves questioning why things are.
They may feel unappreciated or more deserving of X- chapters are political organisations too.
They may resent the imperfect humans they are asked to save.
They may have completely legitimate concerns about the Codex Astartes and its restrictive nature, or any other doctrine/legislation that holds them back.

If they figure out that they can do pretty much whatever they like and act on it- that freedom is extremely appealing compared to the life of service expected of SM.

Inevitably renegades will return to what they know and were built for- killing. Their first and often last resort to achieve their goals will be violence and this can carry them far.
At this point they may attract, willingly or not, the attention of the dark gods. Exposure to the Eye/Maelstrom, where renegades naturally seek refuge will warp their sensibilities.

A sensible, pragmatic desire to cull the xenos filth will become a vision of the marine roaring atop a massive mountain of xeno skulls.
Understandable testing the limits of superhuman endurance and sensation become base degeneracy and self experimentation, addictions and worse.
A realistic and pessimistic outlook on the horrors of an uncaring galaxy become despondency, neglect and apathy, even sadistic glee as things fall apart.
Curiosity and careful planning lead to forbidden knowledge and twisted schemes.

Huron Blackheart originally seceded from the Imperium because he considered that the Imperial bureaucracy was abusing the Badab system instead of giving it the necessary means to fight the chaos and xeno threats of the Maelstrom. Later on he became corrupted by Chaos.
The Purge is a CSM warband that actually seeks to eradicate all life to prevent the corruption of the universe to Chaos. However, to achieve such a goal, they ask for the favor of Nurgle, using pandemic and viral attacks to eradicate all life on the worlds they attack.

The Soul Drinkers books are about a chapter that was blessed by chaos without their own knowing. They then took their gifts and started hunting down chaos, while fleeing from the imperials. They're not the best written books out there, but it's something.

All of this talk about the chaos marines, but really ignores the bulk of the population and the misery they're put through.

Yeah, life can be nice for the top dogs of Chaos, but it sure as hell isn't any better for the dregs to be members of Chaos than it is for them to be part of the Imperium. And for the most part, honestly I don't think they really care for either one, as long as they're left alone well enough to try to make their day to day lives.