Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Alignment does not work in D&D once you actually take a proper look at it. Secondly, applying human morals to orks, eldar, and especially daemons doesn't work. Thirdly, it's grimdark. "Good" doesn't really exist.

None of the branches of the IoM can ever be considered good in any modern set of ethics, from the brainwashed, semi-religious human supremacist Space Marines to the "Exterminatus for giggles" Inquisition.

Exterminatus for giggles you just made me roll on the floor laughing. True, but so funny!

I disagree. It's not losing the war because of these qualities. It has these qualities because it is fighting a losing battle.
The Imperium doesn't have the luxury of granting human rights or any of the niceties that we, from our position of prosperity, have decided humans should be entitled to.
It claims divine ownership of every human and world in the galaxy and then enforces that claim at every possibility -with lasguns if necessary.
It doesn't do this because the people running it are mustache twirling villains but because to do less would be the end of us all. The harsh realities of the universe have forced men collectively to make unpalatable choices.

I agree that it is evil but its evils are absolutely necessary if some humans are to survive.

I see where you're coming from, but nevertheless I have to disagree. The way I see it, the Imperium loses because of its intolerance and incapability of progress. It is an endless regression and maybe similar to the late Soviet Union or the military-industrial complex in todays USA in that aspect. Its own burocracy and dictatorship has gotten out of control and can't handle the situation at all. A progressive Imperium could simply ally with the Tau, Eldar and even some of the Orks and Necrons. Or it could develop more strong souvereign substates like Ultramar. Or it could try to start to invent new technologies instead of praying for machines to work. The imperium is more backwards than the Orks, since a Mek at least invents something new (even though he doesn't know how it works, just like a techmarine ). But right now the Imperium fights everyone on the outside and everyone inside, no wonder they don't have enough ressources.
I know it's the whole point of 40K that the Imperium is the way it is, but I find it kind of strange when people buy the in-universe propaganda that the Imperium was a viable answer to its threats. For me, most of the problems of the Imperium come from its own failures. You wouldn't start to pray to the chaos gods when you had a good life in the imperium.

 =Angel= wrote:

Humanity, I expect.
Many people say that they would prefer to die free than live a slave but in practice, the opposite is often true.

Yes but that's not relevant to whether faction is good or bad. Just because somebody is killing humans doesn't mean they are bad. That sort is just human centric view which is flawed from get-go.

By and large, most everything is morally gray. There are certainly some good individuals and organizations that lean good (such as the Salamanders), overall they are still gray. Hell, even traditionally "moustache-twirling" evil organizations like the Chaos Space Marines and Dark Eldar probably have some decent individuals in them. Then again, having a conscience doesn't necessarily make a person good.

Orks and Tyranids are about the only exception. There is no gray area, they are colorless. Tyranids are not evil, they are an organism that wants to survive and expand. They are no more evil than a colony of ants. Orks just want a good fight.