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pm713 wrote:
Jain Zar is much better at fighting because the -5 WS and I makes her hit easier and earlier than literally everything. Not so with the Spider.

That's only relevant against things with WS7/Initiative 7 though. She's already swinging before anything that isn't at least initiative 7, and there's a short list of things with that high an initiative. Off the top of my head, it's... wyches with the righ drug, some dark eldar HQs, solitaires, and a keeper of secrets, right? So 90% of the time, the initiative debuff is irrelevant. Similarly, there's a rather short list of things with WS 7 or higher meaning she's already hitting things on 3s 90% of the time. The advantages of her mask are that it helps the banshee squad she's running with and that it makes her harder to hit in a challenge.

So what this means is that this warp spider is performing almost as well as Jain against the vast majority of targets in melee and actually outperforms her against things with lots of wounds because of the insta-death on 6s thing. So sure, Jain will outperform the spider lord against about five people in the galaxy, but he's going to be performing almost as well against terminators, marines, guardsmen, fire warriors, etc.

To be fair, I think Jain might have a more significant advantage against toughness five things thanks to shred, but that's not necessarily true either. Multi-wound toughness five things like grotesques probably die faster to the spider lord because a single six bypasses their multiple wounds and FNP. Similarly, I'm pretty sure the math works out in favor of the spider lord when facing thunderwolves because storm shields will ignore 2/3rds of Jain's attacks, but the spider lord just needs to get them to fail a single insta-death wound. Against single-wound, high-toughness things like bikes and wraith guard, Jain wins out because shred helps and insta-death is irrelevant (usually). My minor objection is that that's a rather narrow range of enemies for a dedicated melee lord to be significantly better at killing than a mostly-mobility-and-shooting lord.

Extreme examples aside, let's look at a fight against MEQs.
Jain will get 5 attacks on the charge, probably hit with 2/3 of those for ~3.35 hits. Those 3.35 hits wound on 4s rerolling for about 2.5125 wounds. So 2 or 3 wounds.
The spider lord will get 6 attacks on the charge and probably hit 2/3 of the time for about 4.02 hits. Those hits wound on 4s with no reroll for about 2.01 wounds. So 2 wounds.

So in her element, Jain Zar only kills half a marine more than the spider lord. Jain is better at killing single-wound high toughness models like bikes, wraith guard, and... nothing else really comes to mind. The spider lord is better at killing anything high toughness with multiple wounds including tyranid MCs, daemon princes, grotesques, etc. He also wins out against multiple wound not-so-high toughness things like swarms and tyranid warriors.

Now to be fair, many phoenix lords perform roughly as well as the spider lord against marines, but the AP2 and insta death mean he's able to deal with a rather wide variety of threats. In comparison, Baharroth, Asurmen, and Fuegans' relatively low strength means that they don't do so well against bikes or MCs. Maugan Ra can deal with MCs passingle well (though I'm pretty sure the spider lord beats him when fighting TMCs), and his AP3 means he's significantly less scary against anything with a 2+ armor save. Karandras wrecks house, but he's also a dedicated melee phoenix lord like Jain, so I don't take issue with him.

There's definitely something to be said for Jain's disarming ability, but that basically only makes her better when fighting a character that she and the spider lord wouldn't have killed before it swung anyway. So for instance, it's moot against a sargeant with a power axe because both she and the spider lord will kill him before he swings, and using disarm will actually make her less killy if she uses disarm thus shrinking the gap.

So against the vast majority of enemies, Jain Zar is barely better and often worse than the phoenix lord of an aspect that doesn't really want to get into melee if it can avoid it. Again, I'm somewhat nitpicking. But unless I'm missing something, I really do feel that he's stepping on Jain's toes a bit. Especially since he's so much easier to deliver into melee than her.

Do remember I suggested losing the ID on a 6 thing which changes it up a lot.

pm713 wrote:
Do remember I suggested losing the ID on a 6 thing which changes it up a lot.

Very true. But I'm not sure it actually addresses the issue of the spider lord being near Jain's level in terms of killing power. A spider lord with insta death might go toe-to-toe with an MC or multi-wound gribbly and win. Without insta-death, he probably doesn't want to be anywhere near that fight, but fortunately he can hit & run out of it. Without insta-death, neither character wants to be in a fight with a high toughness enemy. Jain is slightly better at it, but it's still not a good situation to be in. Also, the proposed 5+ invul would technically make the spider better at surviving an MC attack.

So at that point, we can agree that high toughness targets are just a bad thing for either character to be fighting, but the spider lord can at least hit & run away (and possibly shoot them to death efficiently).

So that leaves us with lower toughness things like MEQ, TEQ, and GEQ. We've already looked at MEQ and found that Jain kills about half an extra marine compared to the spider lord. That difference in ability probably doesn't change much against TEQ because we're basically just looking at the effects of an invul save against half a kill's difference. About 1.34 kills for the spider lord and 1.675 kills for Jain. So about .33 more kills for Jain. Not an impressive difference. Against GEQ...

Jain gets 3.5 hits, wounds on 3s for about 2.345 wounds. So let's call that 2 wounds out of 4 hits for simplicity and say she gets to reroll two dice. That gives her another 1.34 wounds. 1.34+2.345 is just shy of 4 wounds, so we can pretty comfortably call it 4 wounds (assuming she actually lands all four of those hits).

The spider lord gets 6 attacks for a solid 4 hits (instead of the fuzzy math 4 hits Jain got), and then wounds on 4s to turn those 4 hits into 2 wounds.

So to be fair, Jain does outperform him if you're cutting up guardsmen or guardians, but you're probably not going to lose that fight either way. She also wins challenges against characters that are durable enough not to die outright to both phoenix lords.

So what this says to me is that Jain is the better duelist, but her advantages against the non-character normal-toughness units you want to send her against are basically irrelevant next to the spider lord's. Against MEQ and TEQ, you kill virtually the same amount. Against GEQ, she kills more, but you're probably already winning that fight. Especially if you're in a squad of banshees. While a squad of spiders won't do as well at clearing out mobs of guardsmen, that arguably makes the spider lord more useful as he contributes a potent melee presence to a squad that doesn't melee so well while Jain doesn't really add much shooting to her banshee friends.

So they're still very comparable to one another outside of duels against the scariest melee combatants in the galaxy. And as the OP currently has it priced, the spider lord pays fewer points to be almost as good a melee combatant while also being easier to deliver into combat and easier to extricate if he runs up against a melee threat he doesn't like. If I'm looking for a hard-hitting melee character to clear out MEQ or TEQ units, I'm basically paying 10 points less for the spider lord and getting half a kill less for those 10 points, and I can get him into assault position easier too.

I won't compare the her mask and movement boosts to his warp jump modifiers and so forth because both are good in their own ways. However, I will point out that a guy with hit & run wouldn't be a bad addition to a squad of banshees to help them jump out of combat against tough opponents and charge in with bonus attacks against their real targets.

...And on that note. I need to go contemplate Running Baharroth with banshees...

That is a fair point. There are no other suggestions springing to mind however.

I think you're vastly underselling Jain Zar's -5WS and I ability. Remember for assault units it's always better to win the battle in your opponents turn so after getting the charge off you'll have to survive your opponents striking back at least once. This ability means most of your opponents are striking back on 5's, and for a T4 model with a 2+ save I think that goes a long way to ensuring her servival.

Hey guys, loving the discussion! I would like to point out though that I removed instant death on sixes from the warp spiders warpblades, and I added 2 spinneret rifles, relentless, and rampage. I thought that rampage would be appropriate because the phoenix lord has to be outnumbered to gain the extra attack(s). Not sure why we're just comparing the warp spider PL to Jain zar when Fuegan is just as comparable. Fuegan starts off with S5 and gets plus 1 str and attack for every wound he takes plus FNP. This makes him just as good as Jain zar in close combat, and he has FNP so he's just as or more survivable and just as powerful as Jain zar and the warp spider PL in close combat.

Why does he have rampage? Plus he already had relentless.

Relentless is pointless, he already has it from being Jet Pack Infantry.

 Imateria wrote:
I think you're vastly underselling Jain Zar's -5WS and I ability. Remember for assault units it's always better to win the battle in your opponents turn so after getting the charge off you'll have to survive your opponents striking back at least once. This ability means most of your opponents are striking back on 5's, and for a T4 model with a 2+ save I think that goes a long way to ensuring her servival.

Very fair point. I'm probably focusing too much on offensive ability and too little on defense. Generally, I end up challenging things with Jain while running her in a squad of either banshees or guardians. Because she's so killy, I generally end up killing off whomever she's in a challenge with meaning that all my opponent's surviving combatants have to chop up her squad mates before touching her that round. In other words, I don't have much problem with her survivability because she rarely takes any damage until all her friends are dead. As a result, the mask does little to help her out directly. It's still really good for whatever squad she's joined though!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Helvost wrote:
Hey guys, loving the discussion! I would like to point out though that I removed instant death on sixes from the warp spiders warpblades, and I added 2 spinneret rifles, relentless, and rampage. I thought that rampage would be appropriate because the phoenix lord has to be outnumbered to gain the extra attack(s). Not sure why we're just comparing the warp spider PL to Jain zar when Fuegan is just as comparable. Fuegan starts off with S5 and gets plus 1 str and attack for every wound he takes plus FNP. This makes him just as good as Jain zar in close combat, and he has FNP so he's just as or more survivable and just as powerful as Jain zar and the warp spider PL in close combat.

As others have pointed out, relentless doesn't actually do the spider lord any good because he's a jetpack.

Rampage feels like an odd choice to me. As cool as the mental image of ANY phoenix lord chopping up a ton of foes is, it seems odd that the mobile, shooty phoenix lord would have it when Jain and Karandras don't. Although Drazhar (who is sort of kind of maybe Arhra) does...

Regarding Fuegan, he's sort of an odd duck as far as Phoenix Lords go. Mechanically, I feel like he was given a bit more emphasis on melee because dragons have always been really good at murdering any vehicle they shoot at, and adding an extra fire pike isn't actually all that helpful when you were reducing that land raider to slag anyway. For Fuegan's cost, you can get roughly a full squad of fire dragons which will be significantly more effective at shooting tanks to death. So the melee prowess makes him an option that protects and rounds out your dragons so that they're somewhat less crummy in melee.

Fluff-wise, I think they just wanted him to be the angry Raphael/Wolverine in the Phoenix Lords' Ninja Turtles/X-Men.

You're right in thinking that, against many targets, he's as effective a killer as Jain. I believe, however, that this is a result of him being intentionally designed to be "the angry guy with the axe that makes dragons a bit better in melee." He's a way for dragons to survive a charge and come out the other side. His shooting is good but probably not the reason you take him (a dragon exarch is nearly as effective most of the time).

If you want your spider lord to follow a similar design philosophy, that's probably fine. Just be aware that:

* Your spider lord is punching things about as hard as a melee-centric phoenix lord.
* Fuegan is kind of a special snowflake in that he doesn't directly buff his squad or do their job especially well so much as he just gives them a flavorful melee punch.
* Warp spiders are kind of a problematic unit right now. Their shooting makes them very strong. Their flicker jump makes them very difficult to shoot to death. The exarch's ability to autopass morale tests often means you have to either murder the squad outright or at least take out the exarch to have a chance at finishing them off entirely in melee. If you don't finish them off in melee, they jump around the table being excellent objective grabbers and harassment units. Now add a PL to that squad who will basically serve as a second exarch and who will also cause opponents to be much more likely to lose combat makes them that much more frustrating to face off against.


I'm obviously biased. As I've mentioned before, I basically just gave my version of a spider lord power blades that caused insta-death on 6's in a challenge. The in a challenge part is important because, while it makes the phoenix lord's power blades better and allows him to have some cool moments against other characters, it also prevents him from unintentionally becoming a monster hunter (unless the monster is a character) or terminator shredder. It makes him roughly as good against most enemies as Baharroth while still giving him a little something special for fighting enemy characters.

Again, I'm mostly nitpicking. What you have would probably be perfectly reasonable to play against. I'm just pointing out that there may be room for a little extra polish or an opportunity to refine the character so that his gimmick is more apparent. What do you see this guy as being, OP? Is he a murderous melee spider the same way Fuegan is the only dragon who really wants to be in close combat? Is he a unit-buffer like Baharroth or Jain Zar that makes his unit better at what they do? Is he basically just a super spider that does the normal warp spider thing even better the same way Karandras is basically a super exarch that doesn't really add a ton of versatility to the unit (unless you really want to outflank from the rear)?

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
I think you're vastly underselling Jain Zar's -5WS and I ability. Remember for assault units it's always better to win the battle in your opponents turn so after getting the charge off you'll have to survive your opponents striking back at least once. This ability means most of your opponents are striking back on 5's, and for a T4 model with a 2+ save I think that goes a long way to ensuring her servival.

Very fair point. I'm probably focusing too much on offensive ability and too little on defense. Generally, I end up challenging things with Jain while running her in a squad of either banshees or guardians. Because she's so killy, I generally end up killing off whomever she's in a challenge with meaning that all my opponent's surviving combatants have to chop up her squad mates before touching her that round. In other words, I don't have much problem with her survivability because she rarely takes any damage until all her friends are dead. As a result, the mask does little to help her out directly. It's still really good for whatever squad she's joined though!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Helvost wrote:
Hey guys, loving the discussion! I would like to point out though that I removed instant death on sixes from the warp spiders warpblades, and I added 2 spinneret rifles, relentless, and rampage. I thought that rampage would be appropriate because the phoenix lord has to be outnumbered to gain the extra attack(s). Not sure why we're just comparing the warp spider PL to Jain zar when Fuegan is just as comparable. Fuegan starts off with S5 and gets plus 1 str and attack for every wound he takes plus FNP. This makes him just as good as Jain zar in close combat, and he has FNP so he's just as or more survivable and just as powerful as Jain zar and the warp spider PL in close combat.

As others have pointed out, relentless doesn't actually do the spider lord any good because he's a jetpack.

Rampage feels like an odd choice to me. As cool as the mental image of ANY phoenix lord chopping up a ton of foes is, it seems odd that the mobile, shooty phoenix lord would have it when Jain and Karandras don't. Although Drazhar (who is sort of kind of maybe Arhra) does...

Regarding Fuegan, he's sort of an odd duck as far as Phoenix Lords go. Mechanically, I feel like he was given a bit more emphasis on melee because dragons have always been really good at murdering any vehicle they shoot at, and adding an extra fire pike isn't actually all that helpful when you were reducing that land raider to slag anyway. For Fuegan's cost, you can get roughly a full squad of fire dragons which will be significantly more effective at shooting tanks to death. So the melee prowess makes him an option that protects and rounds out your dragons so that they're somewhat less crummy in melee.

Fluff-wise, I think they just wanted him to be the angry Raphael/Wolverine in the Phoenix Lords' Ninja Turtles/X-Men.

You're right in thinking that, against many targets, he's as effective a killer as Jain. I believe, however, that this is a result of him being intentionally designed to be "the angry guy with the axe that makes dragons a bit better in melee." He's a way for dragons to survive a charge and come out the other side. His shooting is good but probably not the reason you take him (a dragon exarch is nearly as effective most of the time).

If you want your spider lord to follow a similar design philosophy, that's probably fine. Just be aware that:

* Your spider lord is punching things about as hard as a melee-centric phoenix lord.
* Fuegan is kind of a special snowflake in that he doesn't directly buff his squad or do their job especially well so much as he just gives them a flavorful melee punch.
* Warp spiders are kind of a problematic unit right now. Their shooting makes them very strong. Their flicker jump makes them very difficult to shoot to death. The exarch's ability to autopass morale tests often means you have to either murder the squad outright or at least take out the exarch to have a chance at finishing them off entirely in melee. If you don't finish them off in melee, they jump around the table being excellent objective grabbers and harassment units. Now add a PL to that squad who will basically serve as a second exarch and who will also cause opponents to be much more likely to lose combat makes them that much more frustrating to face off against.


I'm obviously biased. As I've mentioned before, I basically just gave my version of a spider lord power blades that caused insta-death on 6's in a challenge. The in a challenge part is important because, while it makes the phoenix lord's power blades better and allows him to have some cool moments against other characters, it also prevents him from unintentionally becoming a monster hunter (unless the monster is a character) or terminator shredder. It makes him roughly as good against most enemies as Baharroth while still giving him a little something special for fighting enemy characters.

Again, I'm mostly nitpicking. What you have would probably be perfectly reasonable to play against. I'm just pointing out that there may be room for a little extra polish or an opportunity to refine the character so that his gimmick is more apparent. What do you see this guy as being, OP? Is he a murderous melee spider the same way Fuegan is the only dragon who really wants to be in close combat? Is he a unit-buffer like Baharroth or Jain Zar that makes his unit better at what they do? Is he basically just a super spider that does the normal warp spider thing even better the same way Karandras is basically a super exarch that doesn't really add a ton of versatility to the unit (unless you really want to outflank from the rear)?

I was trying to make him sort of a mix between Fuegan and baharroth. He buffs the unit by letting them move faster and deep strike more accurately, but he can also hold his own in a melee on the event that you do want to charge.

I think I'm going to switch his 2 spinneret rifles for a single spinneret rifle and then make him better in close combat. What do you think I should do to make him better in CC? Counter-Attack? Rage? Rampage?

If you want to de-emphasize the shooting side of him and focus on melee/mobility, I think some of the ideas presented previously would work pretty well. Counter-Attack is a somewhat spider-friendly rule. I'd still keep his melee weapons AP3 instead of 2, but Rampage is probably fine if you're focusing on melee with him.

Basically, I would go with 1 or 2 of the following 3 things:
-Rampage (spider limbs, lots of attacks)
-Insta-death on 6s (probably limited to challenges)
-5+ or 4+ invul in melee only (can't jump around too much against shooting; you'd leave your squad behind!)
-Maybe a melee monofilament weapon? Sort of like a modified harlequin's embrace? It would let you wound on initiative with strength 4, which would make you great against things like necrons or tau. Plus it would give you pseudo-rending. This might not be unreasonable to toss on top of normal power blades.