SuperFriends and how to defeat them??

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**koooaei**

Ifurita wrote:
So what happens when a superfriends list comes up against a superfriends list?

They actually crash together and than whoever gets invis denied looses. That's how you forge dat narrative nowadays.

**Cult of My Boy Blue**

thisisnotpancho wrote:
Cult of My Boy Blue wrote:
Had a tourney the other day, 2nd game against a\the top players in 40K Aaron Aleong. Also several other top players are using the "Super Friends" list.

Goes like this ( sure you have seen it if you are going to answer )
Dark Angels bikes
SM Librarian Conclave
Space wolves + Iron Priests

This ended up being like a 20 model unit since all the space wolves are characters ( wolves as characters=dumb). Unfortunately we were not using ITC rules so invisibility and the new gate spell pretty much make this unit unkillable.

What are my options here? Even using Eldar I could only kill a couple of things before it marched across the field. Assuming ITC rules are being used?

I was thinking a WraithGuard Bomb.. but would love to hear how you would deal with this mess of a list.

So... I've played against deathstars, specifically Twolfstars multiple times. I'm about 50/50 W/L against them.

If you can't kill them before they power up (Invis, veil), DO NOT TRY TO KILL THEM AFTER THEY POWER UP

The best thing that you can do to win the game is ignore them and play to the mission. Do not play their game. Do not attack them, certainly do not charge them unless you have a guarantee unit that can stand in assault to them and a guaranteed way to block hit and run. This is is extremely difficult by the way. You cannot just surround them. There has to be a very specific circumstance to block HnR which would take a whole thread to try to explain. An experienced Wolfstar player will 99 times out of 100 avoid that situation. So, ignore them and play to the mission.

Play to the mission. And while you are playing the mission, use damage mitigation to make the star the least potent it can be.

Damage mitigation can be done by the following tactics:
- movement blocking - use a (preferrably) fast, cheap, large unit to roadblock them from getting at your other units. Do not charge them to try to movement block, your unit will only die letting them gain more movement, or their unit will Hit and Run which will let them gain a lot more movement.
- distraction - Use a valuable unit to lure the star into a corner of the board. The purpose of this is to bait the star player into attacking the valuable distraction unit in the corner of the board so that it will keep the wolfstar out of position for a turn or two
- split the focus of the star - make the star player decide to focus on only a part of your army or split up his star. Do this by splitting up your forces into different areas of the board.
- play where the star isn't - Play the areas of the board where the star is not physically located. Aim for the objectives that the star doesn't have the ability to threaten.

If you can use some of these, it can help you play to the mission. Which is the biggest piece of advice against stars. Play to the mission. Do not play the star's game. You will lose. You have to choose which part of the mission you are able to achieve over the star and go full force for it. Most of the damage mitigation requires your army to be extremely fast and for units to operate independently. For 95% of armies, this is just not possible. This is why deathstars are winning most events. Armies just can't avoid the star nor can they beat the star.

There is also a great frontline gaming commentary on this you can find here: https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/05/23/signals-from-the-frontline-435-defeating-deathstars/ they reiterate a lot of the tactics I've stated here.

TL;DR Don't try to destroy the star once it is powered up. Pick and choose what aspects of the mission you can win and go full force for them. Use damage mitigation techniques to make the star the least potent it can be. Even using these tactics, the wolfstar player will still have the advantage in most missions.

Great Post!! Thank you gor posting this as it was great to offer a better way to fight Super Friends!!

**Palleus**

Real News wrote:
Palleus wrote:
I have a list of mostly assassins (two of the assassin formations), and although I haven't run into too many psyker deathstars, I can tell you that they are actually very hard to kill at range (seeing as your opponent fires at BS 1 when shooting at them), and they're easy to hide behind terrain. The main thing you have to watch out for are blasts and templates, as they're not too badly affected by the BS 1 (not snap shots). So whoever you're fighting needs to either get very lucky with a Str 8+ shot, or they're going to have to bomb them out with ordinance.

If your target is invisible or you're forced to snap fire for some other reason, you can't target them with blast/template weapons or ordinance at all. You can fire at a different unit and hope the template scatters onto them, of course.

That is true, for invisible or snap shooting, but for this specific assassin the rule actually doesn't say snap shooting it specifically says "Count as shooting at ballistic skill 1" which, while it does mean direct fire weapons hit on 6s, is not actually the same as "snap shooting." (Unless I'm missing something in the main rulebook that says that BS1 is the same as snap shooting, if that's the case, then awesome

) So while a blast template will most likely scatter wildly on a miss, a direct hit is still a direct hit. And flamers have no issue with high or low BS (my burna boyz say hi). Now, granted, you're probably not going to find flamers in a superfirends list, but blasts? Much more likely. Especially if they're going to be that guy, and bring wyverns on top of superfirends.

If that is the case, I believe it is socially acceptable to bring the ultimate D-weapon against his forces: a sledgehammer. (I kid, I kid)

**zerosignal**

CaptKaruthors wrote:
Simple. Concede the game. If they want to win that badly by fielding a list that requires no player involvement from his opponent other than removing models from the table...shake his hand and say: "GG" and go wander the game hall and have a drink. It's not like you'd actually be playing the game anyways...or in any capacity that would be enjoyable. It also gives the d-bag what he wants: a win in the win column and maximum points. People like this are toxic to an already broken game system. Lists like these do nothing to further the game, the hobby, or prove any sort of tactical prowess. Lists like these aren't worth the time to play against them, nor are the people worth engaging.

I don't think you understand how competitions work.

Edit: They really need to do something about Invisibility, it seems to be straight-up the most broken thing in the game.

**Real News**

zerosignal wrote:

I don't think you understand how competitions work.

List building is a competition in and of itself. If you win it by a large enough margin, you've proven your unquestionable superiority. Surely there is no need to bother competing any further with such a master of the game.

Edit: They really need to do something about Invisibility, it seems to be straight-up the most broken thing in the game.

Pshaw. All it does is make you snap shoot and prevent you from using blasts and templates. If snap shots were really so worthless, overwatch wouldn't be a deterrent to assault. Spam some grav/scatterlaser/TL whatever and shoot until you hit.

Not being entirely serious here but there are more broken things than invisibility. I think some of the new marine powers are serious contenders.

**whembly**

Anything with Stomps?

Find something that can generate more than the usual number of stomps, like Brass Scorpion or Chaos Knight of Khorne...

I haven't played a super-heavy tank in quite some time, but couldn't a SH tank 'Overrun' an unit off the board? (if memory serves, the Typhon has +2 on that chart) Or, does the unit get out of the way unharmed by making their ld check?

**Saythings**

Grimmed Khorne Scorpions. Ugh. Just ugh.

**PipeAlley**

Crazyterran wrote:
*Eldar complaining about something*

*trying to find reason to care*

LOL perfect response.

Last week I decided if I ever bother playing a Tournament again it'll be with Ghaz in a 301 model Green Tide with multiple ways of granting Fearless. I'll have to borrow some models to make it work but anyone I face will NOT be getting max points off me. I'll be their nightmare.

**agnosto**

Doesn't Kharn hit invis units on a 2+ (or 3+) now with the FAQ?

**OrdoSean**

PipeAlley wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
*Eldar complaining about something*

*trying to find reason to care*

LOL perfect response.

Last week I decided if I ever bother playing a Tournament again it'll be with Ghaz in a 301 model Green Tide with multiple ways of granting Fearless. I'll have to borrow some models to make it work but anyone I face will NOT be getting max points off me. I'll be their nightmare.

Pretty sure that space wolves list might kill all those orks.

But that aside the best way to deal with this unit is small fast fearless units and fast units that can jump over things like jetbikes. Basically eldar should have no problem with this stuff.

The key is to break it up and assault it on weak flanks and then use the fast units to block hit and run. An earlier poster mentioned this as being difficult to do and it's really not just takes reading the rules and practice.... Crazy that you could get better at the game by reading the rules and trying harder. And the wolf player really has no option to stop you from doing this other then balling his army into a tight clump... Which makes it easy to simply avoid because of his lack of board presence or in itc events blast off the table with blast weapons.

The larger the Death Star and the more he spreads out the easier it is to do.

**Torus**

Bring in Harlequins with as many psychic dice as you can, keep casting Fog of Dreams onto the Deathstar and get into close combat using either a ton of players with Caresses, a Wraithknight, Seer Council or whatever for the lulz.

Speaking of Seer Councils, combine the Reveal psychic power with apocalyptic Eldritch storms (bonus points if you cast it on an enemy unit near the death star rather than the star itself so they can't jink) try and bully them out of casting Invisibility, they cast on 2's I know but with the threat of 17-22 deny dice at your disposal you force him to throw more dice at it (risking a perils) or you may even stop it.

Nightspinners or Deathshroud armed Wraithknights with Torrent, wounding on 2's, S7, monofiliment flamer templates.

Failing that, kill them before they power up or simply kill everything else he has in the army and them play the missions.

**Ginjitzu**

CaptKaruthors wrote:
Simple. Concede the game. If they want to win that badly by fielding a list that requires no player involvement from his opponent other than removing models from the table...shake his hand and say: "GG" and go wander the game hall and have a drink. It's not like you'd actually be playing the game anyways...or in any capacity that would be enjoyable. It also gives the d-bag what he wants: a win in the win column and maximum points. People like this are toxic to an already broken game system. Lists like these do nothing to further the game, the hobby, or prove any sort of tactical prowess. Lists like these aren't worth the time to play against them, nor are the people worth engaging.

No! Do the opposite! Play as slowly as possible. Question everything. Check & recheck every rule & unit stat, including your own, before and during every single move. Spend a lot of time "thinking." Roll all of your dice individually; every single one! Maximum passive aggression.

**koooaei**

Ginjitzu wrote:

No! Do the opposite! Play as slowly as possible. Question everything. Check & recheck every rule & unit stat, including your own, before and during every single move. Spend a lot of time "thinking." Roll all of your dice individually; every single one! Maximum passive aggression.

And than concede right before he gets to the winning part.

**LunaWolvesLoyalist**

Real easy solution.

Do not play with ass darts.

**Durandal**

If I were playing wolves or necron, I would take all flying transports for my units, and the flying heavy support and just stay off the ground till the last turn objective grabbing.

I should have plenty of firepower to wipe some scout units off the map, and if the deathstar breaks up to contest objectives, well then they are vulnerable as well.

Eldar could also try a leadership bomb, with select DE, CE, and H units to knock the star's leadership to a 8 on 3 dice to do anything.

**Vankraken**

Dark Angels are Stubborn so they will maintain that leadership 10.

**Leth**

I think people are missing the reason that these sort of lists exist. They are only popular because they are the only way to survive the sort of firepower that Tau and Eldar can put out. They did not exist until we had to deal with things like Wave Serpent Spam, they were the counter to a problem. Now it is even worse because of things like scatbikes and hunter cadres.

What counters the Super Friends? Hordes. Take a greentide against super friends list and watch it fall apart because you can shut down its mobility and it has almost no shooting to get through or create holes. Take a guard blob list. The sheer number of shots can get wounds through.

The problem is that Eldar and Tau shut down those types of lists because of simple volume of fire. Same with MSU outside of gladius(and that only works because you get enough free points to help cancel out the volume of fire).

A super friends list needs to completely wipeout whatever it is hitting before it moves on because it doesn't have the ability to cover the entire board at once until it splits up. However if it cant then that means it needs to take an additional turn of a short game finishing them off. One of the most frustrating things I experienced running the list was have 1-2 man squads still left alive and they would just run to the far corners of the map.

This is also where tactics such as objective placement come into play. A super friends list wants all of the objectives very close together. Get them as far apart as you can. So on and so forth.

When facing any of these lists the most important thing is to accept that many things are not possible and to not waste your time trying and spend that time doing what you can. Number of times I would just spend my time running or jumping around with everything, even shooting units because the shooting would be completely ineffective. I would throw away expensive units to take out the scouts or whatever because they are neceary for them to win and they cant do anything else anyway.

Use reserves and bait them into one corner with part of your army and then have reserves come in from other areas.

**ionusx**

superfriends will fall apart if they break their backs at the GW hq and quit squatting down and dumping on horde armies.

**Kholzerino**

Farseer (skyrunner)
5 Scatbikes
5 Scatbikes
5 Scatbikes
5 Scatbikes
3 Scatbikes
3 Scat bikes
5 Warp Spiders (exarch)
2 D Bats
2 D Bats
2 D Bats
Wraithknight (D Cannons, 2 HWCannons)
Bunker (escape hatch, ammo dump)
Culexus
Inquisitor (3 servo skulls)

This list beats that list. Know your scissors to the current paper.

**DoomMouse**

I suspect that list beats most lists to be honest...

**Kholzerino**

DoomMouse wrote:
I suspect that list beats most lists to be honest...

Massed Warp Spiders beats it nicely. Or the right drop pod lists.

And the people saying the new GW FAQ scuppers Superfriends: it makes it stronger. Because the Culexus has to come out of his bunker to nerf the star now as area of effect doesn't work from a building and the cullexus can't go in a flier etc.

**Saythings**

Just to add the new FAQ buffs any deathstars with optional Jumppacks, as 1 Libby with a Jumppack gives the entire squad rerolls to assault ranges. With the +3 inches from Dark Angels' HQs, it's pretty ridiculous. #justwolfstarthings

I'm pretty excited to see how my orks do at this year's NovaOpen. Haha. I hope I run into several Wolfstar armies. Took me a few hours of painting but rocking 199 model count army.