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Serpent with fire dragons. Game over.

You'd get at least a turn of shooting and that's a terrible waste of points.

Im a Relatively new Eldar player I have lost to other Eldar and Chaos in Chaos games it was a result of those walker things with tentacles. I notice that fast assault troops are good against Eldar. Also BFG's usually do well too..

Green flame wrote:
I notice that fast assault troops are good against Eldar.

Oh no, don't let Martel see this. It may be too late already. Everyone hide.

1 unit of daemonettes taking out a wraithknight gave me chills. Little help with the loci of beguilement but they are possibly one of the best units in both cost and damage for taking out GMC's.

"Whats that? Your 90 points of daemonettes charging my wraithknight? HA good luck, wraithknight are the... what do you mean its already dead?"

My biggest victory has to come from reading the fluff to Death Masque and seeing Eldrad get boned by the deathwatch, my second favourite marine faction.

Haha xenos

 krodarklorr wrote:

Green flame wrote:
I notice that fast assault troops are good against Eldar.

Oh no, don't let Martel see this. It may be too late already. Everyone hide.

I'm going to assume that somewhere there is an Eldar list that fast assault troops do well against. I'm going to assume that he's talking about that list.

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Green flame wrote:
I notice that fast assault troops are good against Eldar.

Oh no, don't let Martel see this. It may be too late already. Everyone hide.

I'm going to assume that somewhere there is an Eldar list that fast assault troops do well against. I'm going to assume that he's talking about that list.

To be fair now Skyhammer assault marines charging Scat (or anything that isn't wraith related for that matter) packs turn 1 is damn effective...How the hell BA gets in that position though I don't know...

 Torus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Green flame wrote:
I notice that fast assault troops are good against Eldar.

Oh no, don't let Martel see this. It may be too late already. Everyone hide.

I'm going to assume that somewhere there is an Eldar list that fast assault troops do well against. I'm going to assume that he's talking about that list.

To be fair now Skyhammer assault marines charging Scat (or anything that isn't wraith related for that matter) packs turn 1 is damn effective...How the hell BA gets in that position though I don't know...

They're not going to let you do that though.

Martel732 wrote:

 Torus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Green flame wrote:
I notice that fast assault troops are good against Eldar.

Oh no, don't let Martel see this. It may be too late already. Everyone hide.

I'm going to assume that somewhere there is an Eldar list that fast assault troops do well against. I'm going to assume that he's talking about that list.

To be fair now Skyhammer assault marines charging Scat (or anything that isn't wraith related for that matter) packs turn 1 is damn effective...How the hell BA gets in that position though I don't know...

They're not going to let you do that though.

Care to explain how you can not let a player deep strike on either turn 1 or turn 2 his choice and charge you immediately often with no overwatch?

Is the preferred strat still "hit them on the head with an old CSM dreadnought in a sock, grab your scatterbikes and run away while proclaiming victory"?

Limit is his deepstrike options and/or use reserves w/autarch shenaningans. Dual WK take up a lot of real estate by themselves, and if you deviate into them, it's a mishap. Those ASM have no deviation mitigation that I'm aware of. They might not even make the charge. An Eldar guy I play regularly walls off his entire list with 2 WK and a wave serpent.

Martel, it seems like in every one of your arguments the poor, picked-on marine player only has 200 points of guys in a vacuum fighting an entire opposing army.

What's the other half of the formation (you know, the 8 relentless grav cannons) doing while the whole army is walled off by a wk who no longer gets toe in cover per the FAQ? Reading a bolterporn novel?

Sky hammer in particular, and alpha strikes in general, are pretty solid counters to WK/scatbike lists. I've beaten it with Harlequins. I've seen it beaten with fairly standard marine drop pod stuff. Drop in a pod with standard bolters/melta, you kill 3 scatter bikes and force a ld7 morale check and a jink.

It's the wraithknights that require specific counters from the marine side of things. That's why sky hammer works so well, it comes packaged with a solid answer to both.

the_scotsman wrote:
Martel, it seems like in every one of your arguments the poor, picked-on marine player only has 200 points of guys in a vacuum fighting an entire opposing army.

What's the other half of the formation (you know, the 8 relentless grav cannons) doing while the whole army is walled off by a wk who no longer gets toe in cover per the FAQ? Reading a bolterporn novel?

Sky hammer in particular, and alpha strikes in general, are pretty solid counters to WK/scatbike lists. I've beaten it with Harlequins. I've seen it beaten with fairly standard marine drop pod stuff. Drop in a pod with standard bolters/melta, you kill 3 scatter bikes and force a ld7 morale check and a jink.

It's the wraithknights that require specific counters from the marine side of things. That's why sky hammer works so well, it comes packaged with a solid answer to both.

The guy plays BL without allies/ grav cannons and formations and whilst you may disagree with his comments, could we please not derail the thread any further with this.

That said I'd love to hear about the Harlequins beating CWE in detail. I've got a fairly large harly force and if you've got the knack of making it working against the single top codex in the game then I need to hear about it!

I posted a link to the batrep earlier in the thread. Essentially, the opposing list was a Windrider host (5 man scatbike squads, seerstar with bike mounted farseer and bike autarch, vyper with scatter laser) 2 D-cannon WKs, and a full aspect host of swooping hawks. My list was about 500 points of allies, 1500 points of Harlequins, with a masque, hero's path, Dark Eldar allied detachment and eldar allied detachment. So I was split between fast melee and freakshow elements.

Got turn 1, positioned most of my stuff out of the way, and infiltrated my Hero's Path to target 1 scatbike squad with the death jester and the other with the shadowseer. Shadowseer shrieked one squad off the board, Death Jester made the other fail morale but as they weren't close enough to the board edge to run them off I sent them behind a building. Then I flat-outed the transports full of clowns into buildings to make them a pain to target. Voidweaver blew up, one transport got wrecked, and the other got immobilized with 1 HP remaining. Bikes died except for my Autarch. But turn 2 and turn 3, my melee units managed to kill a wraithknight, and after that the game was pretty much over.

the_scotsman wrote:
Martel, it seems like in every one of your arguments the poor, picked-on marine player only has 200 points of guys in a vacuum fighting an entire opposing army.

What's the other half of the formation (you know, the 8 relentless grav cannons) doing while the whole army is walled off by a wk who no longer gets toe in cover per the FAQ? Reading a bolterporn novel?

Sky hammer in particular, and alpha strikes in general, are pretty solid counters to WK/scatbike lists. I've beaten it with Harlequins. I've seen it beaten with fairly standard marine drop pod stuff. Drop in a pod with standard bolters/melta, you kill 3 scatter bikes and force a ld7 morale check and a jink.

It's the wraithknights that require specific counters from the marine side of things. That's why sky hammer works so well, it comes packaged with a solid answer to both.

The eight relentless grav cannons arrive at the same time as the assault marines, so they are too late to clear the path. Yeah, he'll lose 1.5 WKs, but that's what? 450 pts of models? And the second WK can still fight at full capacity. The assault marines end up basically doing nothing, and then the entire skyhammer formation dies on the next turn. The marine player ends up picking up 280 pts in just grav cannons. It's not a solid counter against someone who is a 5th ed vet with lots of practice against obnoxious 5th ed Grey Hunter drops.

It's also become in vogue to field tiny units of scatbikes, to mitigate alpha strike. It also minimizes poor reserve rolls if necessary. It's also far from impossible to get your WK a 5++ cover save with a building or other terrain feature. It's just hard to get them a ruin save.

Martel732 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Martel, it seems like in every one of your arguments the poor, picked-on marine player only has 200 points of guys in a vacuum fighting an entire opposing army.

What's the other half of the formation (you know, the 8 relentless grav cannons) doing while the whole army is walled off by a wk who no longer gets toe in cover per the FAQ? Reading a bolterporn novel?

Sky hammer in particular, and alpha strikes in general, are pretty solid counters to WK/scatbike lists. I've beaten it with Harlequins. I've seen it beaten with fairly standard marine drop pod stuff. Drop in a pod with standard bolters/melta, you kill 3 scatter bikes and force a ld7 morale check and a jink.

It's the wraithknights that require specific counters from the marine side of things. That's why sky hammer works so well, it comes packaged with a solid answer to both.

The eight relentless grav cannons arrive at the same time as the assault marines, so they are too late to clear the path. Yeah, he'll lose 1.5 WKs, but that's what? 450 pts of models? And the second WK can still fight at full capacity. The assault marines end up basically doing nothing, and then the entire skyhammer formation dies on the next turn. The marine player ends up picking up 280 pts in just grav cannons. It's not a solid counter against someone who is a 5th ed vet with lots of practice against obnoxious 5th ed Grey Hunter drops.

It's also become in vogue to field tiny units of scatbikes, to mitigate alpha strike. It also minimizes poor reserve rolls if necessary. It's also far from impossible to get your WK a 5++ cover save with a building or other terrain feature. It's just hard to get them a ruin save.

Use Ultramarine Chapter Tactic on the Skyhammer Formation, so 8 Grav Cannon with a total of 40 shots can overkill two Sword and Shield WKs, unless Eldar have 2 farseers and goes first and have the extreme luck to gain and successfully cast either Fortune or Invisibility cast on those WKs. Besides, at somewhere like 1500 to 1850pts, there should not just be only one Skyhammer formation, you are likely to have some other supporting units, such as Librarians (especially Tigirius who can let a whole squad gain rending, 20 rending shots are no joke), TFC to pick up the unlucky guys falls off from their destroyed transports, as well as CM smashbane to do the melee for you. If you really feel 8 gravcannon is still not enough, consider also bring Grav Centurion in a pod with Libby. If 55 grav shots with rerolling to hit and rerolling to wound is still not enough to kill 2 WKs, I don't know what I can offer then.

NOVA and ITC only allows one GMC, so not gonna worry about duo WKs.

I won my last game against my friends cutthroat Eldar army, we played the Nova relic mission.

His list composes of:
Autarch w spyder jet pack
Farseer on bike
6x3 scatter bikes
3x5 Warp spiders
5xWG with D-scythes
2xWarp Hunters
Archon with WWP
warriors

I ran a unorthodox IH death star list.
Battle Company:
Captain Smashbane
Command squad on bikes with 4xgrav guns and storm shields
3xTact squads in rhinos, 2 with grav guns and 1 with a melta
1xbike squad with melta
1xDev Squad w Grav cannon
10th Company: 3xScouts squads
Libby Conclave: 4xLibbies on bikes with force axes and one has a mind forge stave.
Sisters DET: St. Celestine and a squad of sisters

We both chose Primary OBJ 1. I rolled the strategic warlord trait that allows me to re-roll reserves. And I rolled the psychic powers that I needed which are invis and veil. I won the roll off and made him go first. He only deployed his scary warp hunters which pretty much has range to the whole board. I infiltrated my scouts inside ruins and reserved everything else.

T1: Scouts goes to ground for 2+ covers against warp hunter barrages.
T2: I tried to keep everything off the board and only a few units came in. His WG came in and wasted his D-scythes on some scouts.He also tries to keep his scatter bikes off with the autarch reserve mods.
T3: Deathstar comes in casted invis and prescience then proceed to grav out most of the D-scythe squad.
T4: Deathstar takes out one warp hunter
T5: Takes out the 2nd warp hunter, but he kills smashbane with pretty much all his shooting.
T6: I control relic because my command squad is OBJSec after wiping out his contesting scatter bikes.

I won by like 24-8

From playing many games against his different Eldar lists (Eldar +Riptide wing, Warp spider spam, and etc), here are few strategic lessons Ive learned.

1. Eldar has hard time against good cover saves, so stay in cover or shrouded or ravenwing.
2. WK dies hard to grav, so lots of grav will keep Eldar players from using their WK aggressively.
3. If you can, always let them go first, because Eldar jet bikes are fast and will turbo boost to steal objs.
4. Play to the mission and don't chase after baiting warp spiders
5.

" Eldar has hard time against good cover saves, so stay in cover or shrouded or ravenwing. "

I don't understand this. Scatterlasers and warp spiders don't pen marine armor.

" If you can, always let them go first, because Eldar jet bikes are fast and will turbo boost to steal objs. "

My opponents usually keep bikes safe until they are done at least partially crippling my list.

The other two points make perfect sense.

Martel732 wrote:

" If you can, always let them go first, because Eldar jet bikes are fast and will turbo boost to steal objs. "

My opponents usually keep bikes safe until they are done at least partially crippling my list.

this is a hard one and it depends upon what army you're playing too. If you're playing something like War Convocation or a deathstar, you nearly always need to go first to enable your defensive powers. If you have something to deal with the jetbikes at range like Imperial Knights or Earthshakers, you can safely go first and deal with the bikes before the end of the game. But if those bikes survive until turn 5 they usually win the game.

This is also a good argument for mission design that balances progressive and end game scoring.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The other thing Eldar struggle against is reserves. Not everyone can use drop pods, but most armies can reserve a few units that you know an Eldar player wants to target first. View your army from your opponents eyes and pointy ears. If some of your units stand out as obvious and easy targets, consider reserving them.

I wish BA had a single unit that Eldar care about. They can shrug off anything I throw at them. MEQs are easy for Xenos to kill, but not so easy for non-grav cannon marines to kill.

Martel732 wrote:
" Eldar has hard time against good cover saves, so stay in cover or shrouded or ravenwing. "

I don't understand this. Scatterlasers and warp spiders don't pen marine armor.

" If you can, always let them go first, because Eldar jet bikes are fast and will turbo boost to steal objs. "

My opponents usually keep bikes safe until they are done at least partially crippling my list.

The other two points make perfect sense.

1. Scatter lasers dont, but death spinners are AP2 on 6's. You also have D weapons from WKs, vaul battery, and warp hunters that can rip you apart, and also the melta SkataWK packs a mean punch.

2. It depends on the army you run, for deathstars (my favorite) its best to go second and if you worry about getting alpha striked, you could always deploy out of LOS or out of range T1. My IH has 3+++ FNP (2+++ for the smashbane) so alpha strikes from scatterbikes don't scare me. Also ravenwing has 3+ re-rollable jinks and Iron priests on TW has 2+ armor with 3Ws and lots of cyberwolves to tank with. A strong deathstar army, should not always require psychic buffs turn 1, only when they get closer to Warp spiders, d-scythes, or about to charge a WK and etc.

Each army requires different tactics and approaches when dealing with a tournament Eldar list, and also highly dependent on the type of missions. A White Scar gladius that spams grav can be very devastating against Eldars. On obj heavy missions one can just deploy minimally and outflank everything. Most top elder armies run 3 man Scatterbikes, every time you shoot grav at them you force them to jink. In the end its not about killing off the Eldar army, more about destroying just enough of their obsec units and out lasting them so that you control more objectives in the end.

SonsofVulkan wrote:
From playing many games against his different Eldar lists (Eldar +Riptide wing, Warp spider spam, and etc), here are few strategic lessons Ive learned.

1. Eldar has hard time against good cover saves, so stay in cover or shrouded or ravenwing.
2. WK dies hard to grav, so lots of grav will keep Eldar players from using their WK aggressively.
3. If you can, always let them go first, because Eldar jet bikes are fast and will turbo boost to steal objs.
4. Play to the mission and don't chase after baiting warp spiders
5.

1. Everyone has hard time against good cover saves not just Eldar. What you mean I guess is that since Eldar has so much low AP shooting it is always better to hug cover since if you are caught out in the open you don't even get a save.
2. If deployed correctly going after the WK will expose you to a lot of danger. Anyway I always like it when my opponent focuses my WK instead of my other units.
3. This is just wrong. There is no guarantee that jetbikes will go after objectives, on the contrary they can very well shoot you while staying safe. Unless we are talking about a null deployment army then it is not a good idea to let Eldar go first.
4. This is very true. Always go after the mision objectives since there is no sure way to table Eldar.

I have lost to Dark Angels Lion's Blade on 2000points who packed 7 rhinos and 7 drop pods. From what I understand it comes down to who goes first.