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Red Corsair wrote:Honestly, I am a bit pissed that our army that had hardly any variety to begin with, now has less variety due to non viable options. Let me explain.
Metamorphs are absolute garbage, as someone noted already, whips are not ideal, they basically trigger when your unit dies. This is fine when your not paying 15ppm for a t3 5+ model. Mind numbingly stupid how expensive these are now, and they don't stack with rending which honestly makes sense and needed to happen, but not with a price hike as well. Now claw metas cost 7ppm more and don't rend, this is way to far. Whats even worse, is s6. The new wound chart means the rending claws on s4 platforms means your wounding up to T7 on 5's with a -1 save while the claws wound a mech on only a 3+ and again with no ap.
Hybrids are decent, again though the hike went too far. 11ppm for a t3 5+ save again with absolute trash for special weapons. Consider the cheaper option is 23 pts (CLEARLY a typo btw when you look at the cutter and saw) and you get 2 swings that are s8 -4 with 2 dmg. This is not good IMO. In fact this is hot trash just stick with the weight of normal rending. You get more bodies for more attacks that come with stock -1 ap.
Abberants are OK, but are WAY over cost still. No reason to take the picks over hammers, ever. You take the Abbs to deal multi damage not kill infantry, per point the hammers do more. It's -1 to hit, but generally +2 to wound on the picks against high T targets (3+ rather then 5+) while doing flat 3 damage rather then averaging 2 per pick. I want to like these but 41ppm for 2 t4 wounds is INSANE. Should have had 3 wounds IMO.
Purestrains, love them. They are the best unit in the book at assault. Fast, built in invuln and higher toughness. Only they have a real problem which I will get to in a minute.
Neophytes! These are the best unit entry in the book, BY A MILE. 5 points a dude with access to 2 grenade launchers and two mining lasers per 10. So while 5 T3 hybrids with a pair of cutters has to roll EXTREMELY lucky or have a ton of support to work and costs 101, 10 neaophytes loaded the way I suggested costs 88.... They don't require extreme luck to work. Their mining lasers hit on 4's while the cutter hits on 3's but wounds on 3's against t8 targets while the cutter wounds on 4's, and those are the targets we want either of these for. The lasers don't need to risk assault or overwatch and can be effective first turn and to top it all off they do more damage at d6. PLUS we have the grenades. Then we have all the ranged autoguns or flamers for over watch. Equal points of neophyes will kill equal points of hybrids, it's not even close. But these also have an issue for me like the puerstrains...
Two other armies we can allie in do our job better. Guard out shines us in shooting by a mile and nids out assault us and out shoot us. Literally our best two units in the book are purestrains which nids get at a 33% discount PLUS all the other better units, but we will ignore them for now. Guard has better infantry with cheap weapon teams and automatic orders.
Honestly, the design team WAY over adjusted for cult ambush. A guard scion cost the same a a hybrid only he AUTO drops anywhere while we require a 4+ AND he has better gear stock as well as upgrades.
It's actually quite sad because the entire faction consists of 3 unique characters (patriarch is a broodlord), two unique vehicles and just 4 unique infantry units. Yet they rushed this garbage out in extreme haste. I mean seriously, how on earth is a rock saw +1pt over the rock cutter?
I agree with you one some of this and disagree with lots.
I think you over value toughness on models. the army has lots of anti over watch tools. The main one is mass hypnosis, but we also ahve scout sentinels that can charge turn one, and trucks that can eat and over watch for your units. Cult ambush with command point rerolls should hit true ~50% of the time, and even if you roll a 4+ a 9" charge can also be made decently well with acess to command point reroll. I'd say two or 3 well equipped ambush units with companies hero is where i'd say max is. Otherwise you run out of melee room quickly.
Overvalue toughness? No offense mate but this is just silly and annoying. We pay 11ppm for acolytes and 15-19 for metamorphs thats insane for a t3 model with flack armor. especially when you consider we only have s3 pistols on those models that can't hit the broad side of a barn. Just check out a slugga boy if you don't believe me ITS IN THE SAME BOOK. As for over watch, yea sure I also play DE, i know the ways around overwatch, if they bubble wrap their army with the right units they don't even need to worry about your ambushing units to begin with. Best result is now staying over 9" away from enemies, meaning a simple daisy chain from cheap scouts by a marine player will put me in my own deployment zone lol. Every faction has a good screen btw. And if your relying on mass hypnosis just realize you only get the one attempt in matched play and your opponent can deny it. Trucks are a horrible answer btw, you pay over 100 points and if your assaulting then the autocanon is hitting on 5's.
Acolytes are great.You under estimate thier heavy weapons. They cost in the ball park of lascannons (a heavy weapon, that can be taken by 2 guard troops 30 points total, or a space marine for 25 points ~38) and do the same thing, but are subject to might from beyond and primus buff they can make them 3 attacks 2+ reroll 1's STR 9 -4ap 2DMG or Str 9 AP -3 2.77 DMG. Even with out it they compete pretty well against a lascannon at 2 attacks STR 8 good rend multi damage.
No I don't underestimate them actually. You are overestimating them. They don't cost the callpark of a guard lascanon mate, a guard HWT with lascanon is 24 ppm, you pay that JUST FOR THE WEAPON. The mining heavy weapons also are not a las canon equivalent, like not even close. They do far less damage, are weaker, and have a 1" range as opposed to 48" range. But hey look, rather then analyzsing their cost honestly, you just added in the buff from a primus, oh and look might from beyond? I thought we were using mass hypnosis, well I guess we need to pay for another caster, thats only 3 characters so far just to make one unit function. BTW saying it is comparable doesn't make it true, less range, less strength, less damage but more cost. In your world an over cost Ford Focus is somhow comparable to the Mustang on the same lot. I mean they are both cars...
On a side note i found out why you'd use the drill over the clippers today, and that's against invuln saves. 4+ and 5+ invulns the drilll starts to win out as the AP is the same, but the drill does more damage.
Which would be fine if they were priced fairly since 99% of the things I want to drill don't even have an invuln
Abberants are really good at smashing big stuff like land raiders, but acolytes can do this too with weapons for the similar cost, but then also stay decent at taking out squads of models. Where as once the big threat is gone, or if thier is no big threat you wonder why the abberants are on the table. Also for similar points you've got 8 wounds at T5 5+ save. Just feels kinda poor in a take all comers kind of list.
On this I aggree, I got excited for abberants until I realized a patriarch is in the same ballpark for cost, that said the hammers are our only source for s10 with consistent damage
Neophtyes are great i agree. If you do the math las cannons are better than mining lasers for the points FYI. in fact all of our mining weapons are kind of meh. Today shotgun neophytes were my MVP's they did work taking out 2 tack squads and almsot taking out a land speeder in single turn. Those guys are nuts.
Love genestealers, but acolyte feel abit better. the T4 and 5+ invuln aren't really worth it as you can mitigate over watch shooting via hypnosis or surrogate charge from our vehicles (either trucks or grinders from GSC or our AM chimeras and torax, or even scount sentials turn 1). From here the T4 is about going into other turns, but as you can assign your attacks you can hold enemy units hostage to protect you from enemy shooting, by surrounding a dreadnaught with genestealers, but alocoated most of your attacks into another unit so you spare the dreadnaught until your opponents turn. More over our ambush units make up thier points the turn they come onto the table. Acolyte can kill way above thier points cost the turn they hit the table.
But how? I can seemlessly add in a detachment of tyranids and suddenly I get genestealers for 12 ppm, thats only 1ppm more then an acolyte. Btw you have bragged about the iconward and suggested it was an auto take despite it being worse then last edition just because of the 6+++ yet here you suggest the 5++ GS save is not worth it. Makes zero sense, higher toughness and a guaranteed save is better. Acolytes can be punched to death easily by guardsmen with the beyonette order for Christ sake, ;et alone anything else in the game that is s4.
Scions are pretty good and do a similar role, but you'll get more out of acolytes that ambush on a 5+ it's more a risk play as i say above you'll only get a about 50% of the time, but when you do the pay off is just so much more. Acolyte get 2 rending attacks + 1 attack on str 4, and reroll 1's. Add in buffs which both can get, and acolyte definitly come out on top for most possible damage out put. Again here i think your look at that 4+ save and thinking that's where it's at, but the point of a cult ambush is that one good charge that more than pays for itself, and anything extra is gravy.
I'll chalk this up to a lack of experience with guard, I have 20k points of guard and about 120 scions. They conveniently got insane this edition (nerf bat incoming) and your wrong here. That randomness of cult ambush compared to a 100% guarantee on deployment with better armor and weapons makes this silly to even argue.
GodDamUser wrote:I think a big thing with GSC is that in this Index is, it is designed to utilise Guard along side it.
It really depends as i've been saying Trucks are amazing!!! like all star units in the book . They kill other armor great with demo charges, and out dakka even a guard chimera with buffs in most situations against most targets. They are also wicked fast, and can take objectives on the map no problem. The rugged construction lets them stay around longer than a chimera s well. I think if you want to do mono GSC you need trucks in your list. In the game i played today my opponent with lots of melta and lasguns struggle to take out a truck per turn (from turn 2 on). While the trucks did great work with the demo charges just devastating enemy units. The amount of shooting these things put out per turn is crazy when matched with just how tough they are to take out.
How do you figure T6 4+ save is hard to take out? The chimera has a better save, higher toughness and it can use dual HF's for auto hits. The truck comes to 119 with demos and requires a squad in it to fire at point blank. If your assaulting to soak OW your not shooting the thing. Close combat also hurts our things you know. If it gets locked then it needs to withdraw, at which point nothing including passengers gets to fire. I think the Goliath is OK but not amazing. Keep it cheaper without demos and put 2 mining lasers and 2 GL in the back in cover and just fire without moving if you can.
I also ahve gained respect for the rock grinder as a nice acolyte transport, with the flamer. It over watches okay, and keep them safe, and lets you bring a hero like a magus to pocket buff said acolytes.
Other than that i'd say a lot of the units are paying a tax to cult ambush, but this tax is worth it. Nids are pretty bad at ambushing out side of lictors (i believe, which every one goes after characters, but that is also easily countered as your opponent will see it coming). Most of thier units have a tough time ambushing and then charging. You have to think tyranids need to bring a swarmlord who also needs a trygon on top of the unit of genestealers and brood lord to do what we can do with just a patriarch and the genestealers for half the investment. Also in this nid example you have to dazzy trains some of the genestealers back to the brood lord to keep thier +1 to hit buff, and the brood lord can't also charge with them on turn 1.
This is just wrong, we get taxed on every unit having cult ambush, yet only half can arrive using it. So really, we are paying twice for every unit that uses it. It's a horrible mechanic and frankly I wish we flat lost the ambush table and had models that were far less expensive. Not only that but your way off base on the Tyranids. A trygon gets you not only a unit of ambushers that can't fail a roll but also the fething trygon lol. And I have no idea why they would also need a broodlord and swarmy. Swarmy can simply double move himself and crash into their lines with the GS and that trygon. Your deperately reaching here if you are suggesting nids are worse then us. Nids are better at ambushing with rippers for Christy sake. The random table is garbage.
I think if you don't do trucks and grinders which are what we have that's good that isn't in ambush. Then ithink going AM to fill out your list is pretty good, and bring in 2 or 3 good ambush squads to support your AM force that is holding the table.
As for what to take in AM??? conscript wall with a gun line behind it, but you'll have a tough time making sure the table has hole in it that are 9" away from a enemy model where you can ambush onto the table. I like more aggressive models like the double flamer chimera where it can contest table space, and forces your enemy to deal with it instead of spreading out to try to prevent your ambushes. Scions are good, but redundant. There is only so much space 9" away from your enemy in some games, and it forces you to delay your army longer than you'd want.
Notable Am units: ( i haven't tried these so can be ignored abit)
Flamer Sentials (competes with scounts unit and stop enemy ambush units, none flamer options aren't worth the points due to heavy -1 to hit bring you to terrible 5+) (good counter charge unit)
Double flamer Chimera (similar to the truck, but need a turn to get into range. Force enemy to stay on thier side of the table. give you ambush space. Better than truck at anti infantry) (good counter charge unit)
Infantry platoons supported by officers (shoots holes into enemy lines to open up ambush space, and preasure the table)
Ratlling (preventing enemy ambush units, and keep you from getting zoned out from ambushes by scount units)
Sadly once you start taking guard you realize that they are just a better army so why not just play guard, it's the dame for tyranids. Thats why I'd rather try to make it work with GSC only units. I know it's duable but it is just So bland. You end up spamming neophytes with mining lasers. for example
10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML
880
incredibly cheap for the body count and you would be hard pressed to find a better source of anti tank/MC in the book. Neophye mining lasers do it better then anything.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/13 15:29:22
mmimzie wrote: HAving faced anti ambush tactics. this why your whole army is ambush. IF your bring the trucks which are good with demo charges. You get way more dakka than you get out of a chimera for the point period. I don't know what your saying about can't shoot if your charging to soak over watch. your 6" away when you shoot then you charge after shooting, hitting on 5's is bad but if you need to move even a chimera to get your shot off you'll be in a similar situation.
a Lascannon heavy weapon team is 28 (20 for the gun, 2x5 points for the two dudes) points a rock cutter is 34 points for the dude and his weapon. Now doing some math here.
Rock cutter dude has 2 attacks hitting on 3's rerolling 1's wounding a land raider on 4's 2 damage an attack -4 AP. this is an average expected damage of 1.66666 after armor. damage per points for this model would be .044
The las cannon is 1 heavy shot hitting on 4's with no native buffs str 9 so wounding a land raider on 5's with -3 AP and your damage roll should average out to be 3.5. So an average expected damage with this weapon is .777 damage per shot after armor saves. damage per point you get for this weapon team is .0322
So as we can see while it seems like your paying ALOT more for less you actually get more out of the cutters. about 36% more damage from the acolyte than you get from your guard unit. Note the las cannon gets worse if you move or if the land raider gets cover or pops smoke, but the rock cutter also has to land it's ambush. I've done the math on the units and point for point the damage you get out of acolytes in most situations are pretty good. Even if we look at buffs acolytes can get +1 to hit and +1str & +1 attack on top of what they get. the AM lascannon can only get reroll 1's to hit and to wound. So the acolytes can be buffed even harder than the guard. Though might from beyond as you say can be denied.
As far as scout screens go my shot gun squad can ambush that scout screen for half the price and kill the whole thing in one turn. Then on the next turn i can ambush. I know because this is part of what happened in my game last night. Screening units are important for balance. If i could just walk up and get free super killy ambushes with my acolytes it wouldn't be fair at all, but i can clean up screens. Where a lascannon gets worse if i'm standing in cover which thier is no real counter play against.
I picked this example because it's one you used so you can see that acolytes are worth a thing. Sure it's alot of points on a squishy model, but it's also a model that has the potential to stay off the table for up to 3 turns waiting for the right moment to kill double or triple it's points in a single turn. Are you garenteed to get this?? no that would be super broken, but is it underpower heck no?
Your wrong about a lot of things in there. A HWT is not 28, the model is 4 pts plus the gun. A las canon is 20.
As for the trucks, again check your math. truck 66pts, twin AC +33, heavy stubber +8, demo cache +12. Your paying way too much for that garbage. Good luck getting to within 6" and having them remove models from the back so you still have a short charge after apparently great shooting? Or we can get a chimera with +1 toughness and +1 save with 2 HF for cheaper, it can move and advance while auto hitting. But even then, IMO paying over 100pts for a transport just to soak overwatch IF it makes combat seems a bit steap to me. EDIT wow those books get worse, a HF in the guard book is 17pts, in ours its 19 pts. Same Chimera guard one is 4ppm cheaper... Anyone suggesting we take these books as gospel needs to thin kagain, they were horridly edited for costs.
In regards to that horrible math on a land raider, what on earth are you reading? A las canon wounds a land raider on a 3+ dude. The rock cutter blows because you have to actually get to combat before you ever get to attempt to damage your target. Shooting a mining laser is inherently better then combat for the fact that it has 24x the range of your melee PLUS it wounds more often, is cheaper AND does more damage per shot. 11+23=34 as opposed to 5+14=19 you nearly get two mining lasers for every RC. 5 Acolytes with 2 RC= 101pts. 10 neophyes with 2 ML=78pts. I get 8 ablative wounds rather then 3. I get to hide in cover and I don't need to whether over watch in order to strike with my 1" range weapon. It isn't even a debate. It scales even worse. The neophytes never need to ambush either, so it's more reliable, more durable, and cheaper.
Let me get this straight BTW, you expect us to read your anecdotal evidence about ambushing a squad of chaf scouts with chaf neophytes and ignoring the fact that you need to roll above average in order to get a few bolter shots. Let's examine this more closely. You have to waste an ambush slot on shotgun scrubs, then you have to either use a primus for a reroll or burn a critical command point in order to get a 5 or a 6 OR you are just winging it in which case this is not a viable strategy. If you get a 5 you still need to advance above average again ie 4" in order to get into the strength 4 band, so what? another command point? So how many characters and or CP's aer we shredding through at this point? Then the math doesn't even help you out much once we get there, each guy hits on a 4+, wounds on a 4+ and the scouts get a 4+ outside cover, in cover or with camo and your wasting your time. So 10 shot guns only gets you 20*.5*.5*.5 for 2.5 dead scouts. Meanwhile you could have used the auto guns and rapid fired twice on a 5 for 40*.5*.33*.5 for 3.33 dead scouts. Shot guns and auto guns both wound speeders on a 5+ making it even worse for shot guns. Shotguns are fun but actually suck very badly next to autoguns and las guns due to their lack of range. It's way better off to use autoguns and mining lasers and just blow them away since your effective from pretty much any result on the table, or you simply deploy.
Also you should stop downplaying other armies while assuming every GSC buff. Yarrick is a fething steal and he lets you reroll ALL misses plus you can dish reroll 1's orders on AT weapons. Put him near several HWT's and they kill any big thing much better then anything in our army. No need to move with a 48" range either.
I've played 8 games of newhammer now and i have to say every game has felt pretty even, and i never felt like i didn't really have a chance. This can be said for all 8th edition armies. I wouldn't sit here getting stuck trying to compare our army together because; 1. as some one who has done all the math our ambush units do ALOT of damage for the points, and 2. you simply can't compare units too well across factions just play it how it is, and no your not getting screwed like in 7th.
So we are supposed to trust you in regard to crunching the numbers and finding out whats most efficient between factions for AT weapons but yet in the same breath we are not supposed to compare numbers across factions because it's not possible? This statement doesn't belong in the tactics forum, either make points based on solid data and accurate math or don't bother. Anecdotal evidence is fun but worthless ITT. Feel free to share it, as I enjoy reading it but don't expect us to take it as gospel.
I want to reiterate that I don't think the army is bad, but it's very annoying that the number of units that work decently fit on one hand. I am sure someone out there wants to field 200 neophytes but I am not one of them. Just for LAWLS 200 neophytes in 10 man squads with 2 mining lasers a piece is only 1560 pts... 40 mining lasers and 160 las guns. add a pair of patriarchs and a pair of magi and you can even spam smite as well while being fearless. Tank shock doesn't exist anymore so simply swamp the table and out number every objective. See, playable but boring.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/13 18:48:29
