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Red Corsair wrote:Honestly, I am a bit pissed that our army that had hardly any variety to begin with, now has less variety due to non viable options. Let me explain.
Metamorphs are absolute garbage, as someone noted already, whips are not ideal, they basically trigger when your unit dies. This is fine when your not paying 15ppm for a t3 5+ model. Mind numbingly stupid how expensive these are now, and they don't stack with rending which honestly makes sense and needed to happen, but not with a price hike as well. Now claw metas cost 7ppm more and don't rend, this is way to far. Whats even worse, is s6. The new wound chart means the rending claws on s4 platforms means your wounding up to T7 on 5's with a -1 save while the claws wound a mech on only a 3+ and again with no ap.
Hybrids are decent, again though the hike went too far. 11ppm for a t3 5+ save again with absolute trash for special weapons. Consider the cheaper option is 23 pts (CLEARLY a typo btw when you look at the cutter and saw) and you get 2 swings that are s8 -4 with 2 dmg. This is not good IMO. In fact this is hot trash just stick with the weight of normal rending. You get more bodies for more attacks that come with stock -1 ap.
Abberants are OK, but are WAY over cost still. No reason to take the picks over hammers, ever. You take the Abbs to deal multi damage not kill infantry, per point the hammers do more. It's -1 to hit, but generally +2 to wound on the picks against high T targets (3+ rather then 5+) while doing flat 3 damage rather then averaging 2 per pick. I want to like these but 41ppm for 2 t4 wounds is INSANE. Should have had 3 wounds IMO.
Purestrains, love them. They are the best unit in the book at assault. Fast, built in invuln and higher toughness. Only they have a real problem which I will get to in a minute.
Neophytes! These are the best unit entry in the book, BY A MILE. 5 points a dude with access to 2 grenade launchers and two mining lasers per 10. So while 5 T3 hybrids with a pair of cutters has to roll EXTREMELY lucky or have a ton of support to work and costs 101, 10 neaophytes loaded the way I suggested costs 88.... They don't require extreme luck to work. Their mining lasers hit on 4's while the cutter hits on 3's but wounds on 3's against t8 targets while the cutter wounds on 4's, and those are the targets we want either of these for. The lasers don't need to risk assault or overwatch and can be effective first turn and to top it all off they do more damage at d6. PLUS we have the grenades. Then we have all the ranged autoguns or flamers for over watch. Equal points of neophyes will kill equal points of hybrids, it's not even close. But these also have an issue for me like the puerstrains...
Two other armies we can allie in do our job better. Guard out shines us in shooting by a mile and nids out assault us and out shoot us. Literally our best two units in the book are purestrains which nids get at a 33% discount PLUS all the other better units, but we will ignore them for now. Guard has better infantry with cheap weapon teams and automatic orders.
Honestly, the design team WAY over adjusted for cult ambush. A guard scion cost the same a a hybrid only he AUTO drops anywhere while we require a 4+ AND he has better gear stock as well as upgrades.
It's actually quite sad because the entire faction consists of 3 unique characters (patriarch is a broodlord), two unique vehicles and just 4 unique infantry units. Yet they rushed this garbage out in extreme haste. I mean seriously, how on earth is a rock saw +1pt over the rock cutter?
I agree with you one some of this and disagree with lots.
I think you over value toughness on models. the army has lots of anti over watch tools. The main one is mass hypnosis, but we also ahve scout sentinels that can charge turn one, and trucks that can eat and over watch for your units. Cult ambush with command point rerolls should hit true ~50% of the time, and even if you roll a 4+ a 9" charge can also be made decently well with acess to command point reroll. I'd say two or 3 well equipped ambush units with companies hero is where i'd say max is. Otherwise you run out of melee room quickly.
Acolytes are great.You under estimate thier heavy weapons. They cost in the ball park of lascannons (a heavy weapon, that can be taken by 2 guard troops 30 points total, or a space marine for 25 points ~38) and do the same thing, but are subject to might from beyond and primus buff they can make them 3 attacks 2+ reroll 1's STR 9 -4ap 2DMG or Str 9 AP -3 2.77 DMG. Even with out it they compete pretty well against a lascannon at 2 attacks STR 8 good rend multi damage.
On a side note i found out why you'd use the drill over the clippers today, and that's against invuln saves. 4+ and 5+ invulns the drilll starts to win out as the AP is the same, but the drill does more damage.
Abberants are really good at smashing big stuff like land raiders, but acolytes can do this too with weapons for the similar cost, but then also stay decent at taking out squads of models. Where as once the big threat is gone, or if thier is no big threat you wonder why the abberants are on the table. Also for similar points you've got 8 wounds at T5 5+ save. Just feels kinda poor in a take all comers kind of list.
Neophtyes are great i agree. If you do the math las cannons are better than mining lasers for the points FYI. in fact all of our mining weapons are kind of meh. Today shotgun neophytes were my MVP's they did work taking out 2 tack squads and almsot taking out a land speeder in single turn. Those guys are nuts.
Love genestealers, but acolyte feel abit better. the T4 and 5+ invuln aren't really worth it as you can mitigate over watch shooting via hypnosis or surrogate charge from our vehicles (either trucks or grinders from GSC or our AM chimeras and torax, or even scount sentials turn 1). From here the T4 is about going into other turns, but as you can assign your attacks you can hold enemy units hostage to protect you from enemy shooting, by surrounding a dreadnaught with genestealers, but alocoated most of your attacks into another unit so you spare the dreadnaught until your opponents turn. More over our ambush units make up thier points the turn they come onto the table. Acolyte can kill way above thier points cost the turn they hit the table.
Scions are pretty good and do a similar role, but you'll get more out of acolytes that ambush on a 5+ it's more a risk play as i say above you'll only get a about 50% of the time, but when you do the pay off is just so much more. Acolyte get 2 rending attacks + 1 attack on str 4, and reroll 1's. Add in buffs which both can get, and acolyte definitly come out on top for most possible damage out put. Again here i think your look at that 4+ save and thinking that's where it's at, but the point of a cult ambush is that one good charge that more than pays for itself, and anything extra is gravy.
GodDamUser wrote:I think a big thing with GSC is that in this Index is, it is designed to utilise Guard along side it.
It really depends as i've been saying Trucks are amazing!!! like all star units in the book . They kill other armor great with demo charges, and out dakka even a guard chimera with buffs in most situations against most targets. They are also wicked fast, and can take objectives on the map no problem. The rugged construction lets them stay around longer than a chimera s well. I think if you want to do mono GSC you need trucks in your list. In the game i played today my opponent with lots of melta and lasguns struggle to take out a truck per turn (from turn 2 on). While the trucks did great work with the demo charges just devastating enemy units. The amount of shooting these things put out per turn is crazy when matched with just how tough they are to take out.
I also ahve gained respect for the rock grinder as a nice acolyte transport, with the flamer. It over watches okay, and keep them safe, and lets you bring a hero like a magus to pocket buff said acolytes.
Other than that i'd say a lot of the units are paying a tax to cult ambush, but this tax is worth it. Nids are pretty bad at ambushing out side of lictors (i believe, which every one goes after characters, but that is also easily countered as your opponent will see it coming). Most of thier units have a tough time ambushing and then charging. You have to think tyranids need to bring a swarmlord who also needs a trygon on top of the unit of genestealers and brood lord to do what we can do with just a patriarch and the genestealers for half the investment. Also in this nid example you have to dazzy trains some of the genestealers back to the brood lord to keep thier +1 to hit buff, and the brood lord can't also charge with them on turn 1.
I think if you don't do trucks and grinders which are what we have that's good that isn't in ambush. Then ithink going AM to fill out your list is pretty good, and bring in 2 or 3 good ambush squads to support your AM force that is holding the table.
As for what to take in AM??? conscript wall with a gun line behind it, but you'll have a tough time making sure the table has hole in it that are 9" away from a enemy model where you can ambush onto the table. I like more aggressive models like the double flamer chimera where it can contest table space, and forces your enemy to deal with it instead of spreading out to try to prevent your ambushes. Scions are good, but redundant. There is only so much space 9" away from your enemy in some games, and it forces you to delay your army longer than you'd want.
Notable Am units: ( i haven't tried these so can be ignored abit)
Flamer Sentials (competes with scounts unit and stop enemy ambush units, none flamer options aren't worth the points due to heavy -1 to hit bring you to terrible 5+) (good counter charge unit)
Double flamer Chimera (similar to the truck, but need a turn to get into range. Force enemy to stay on thier side of the table. give you ambush space. Better than truck at anti infantry) (good counter charge unit)
Infantry platoons supported by officers (shoots holes into enemy lines to open up ambush space, and preasure the table)
Ratlling (preventing enemy ambush units, and keep you from getting zoned out from ambushes by scount units)
Red Corsair wrote:Honestly, I am a bit pissed that our army that had hardly any variety to begin with, now has less variety due to non viable options. Let me explain.
Metamorphs are absolute garbage, as someone noted already, whips are not ideal, they basically trigger when your unit dies. This is fine when your not paying 15ppm for a t3 5+ model. Mind numbingly stupid how expensive these are now, and they don't stack with rending which honestly makes sense and needed to happen, but not with a price hike as well. Now claw metas cost 7ppm more and don't rend, this is way to far. Whats even worse, is s6. The new wound chart means the rending claws on s4 platforms means your wounding up to T7 on 5's with a -1 save while the claws wound a mech on only a 3+ and again with no ap.
Hybrids are decent, again though the hike went too far. 11ppm for a t3 5+ save again with absolute trash for special weapons. Consider the cheaper option is 23 pts (CLEARLY a typo btw when you look at the cutter and saw) and you get 2 swings that are s8 -4 with 2 dmg. This is not good IMO. In fact this is hot trash just stick with the weight of normal rending. You get more bodies for more attacks that come with stock -1 ap.
Abberants are OK, but are WAY over cost still. No reason to take the picks over hammers, ever. You take the Abbs to deal multi damage not kill infantry, per point the hammers do more. It's -1 to hit, but generally +2 to wound on the picks against high T targets (3+ rather then 5+) while doing flat 3 damage rather then averaging 2 per pick. I want to like these but 41ppm for 2 t4 wounds is INSANE. Should have had 3 wounds IMO.
Purestrains, love them. They are the best unit in the book at assault. Fast, built in invuln and higher toughness. Only they have a real problem which I will get to in a minute.
Neophytes! These are the best unit entry in the book, BY A MILE. 5 points a dude with access to 2 grenade launchers and two mining lasers per 10. So while 5 T3 hybrids with a pair of cutters has to roll EXTREMELY lucky or have a ton of support to work and costs 101, 10 neaophytes loaded the way I suggested costs 88.... They don't require extreme luck to work. Their mining lasers hit on 4's while the cutter hits on 3's but wounds on 3's against t8 targets while the cutter wounds on 4's, and those are the targets we want either of these for. The lasers don't need to risk assault or overwatch and can be effective first turn and to top it all off they do more damage at d6. PLUS we have the grenades. Then we have all the ranged autoguns or flamers for over watch. Equal points of neophyes will kill equal points of hybrids, it's not even close. But these also have an issue for me like the puerstrains...
Two other armies we can allie in do our job better. Guard out shines us in shooting by a mile and nids out assault us and out shoot us. Literally our best two units in the book are purestrains which nids get at a 33% discount PLUS all the other better units, but we will ignore them for now. Guard has better infantry with cheap weapon teams and automatic orders.
Honestly, the design team WAY over adjusted for cult ambush. A guard scion cost the same a a hybrid only he AUTO drops anywhere while we require a 4+ AND he has better gear stock as well as upgrades.
It's actually quite sad because the entire faction consists of 3 unique characters (patriarch is a broodlord), two unique vehicles and just 4 unique infantry units. Yet they rushed this garbage out in extreme haste. I mean seriously, how on earth is a rock saw +1pt over the rock cutter?
I agree with you one some of this and disagree with lots.
I think you over value toughness on models. the army has lots of anti over watch tools. The main one is mass hypnosis, but we also ahve scout sentinels that can charge turn one, and trucks that can eat and over watch for your units. Cult ambush with command point rerolls should hit true ~50% of the time, and even if you roll a 4+ a 9" charge can also be made decently well with acess to command point reroll. I'd say two or 3 well equipped ambush units with companies hero is where i'd say max is. Otherwise you run out of melee room quickly.
Overvalue toughness? No offense mate but this is just silly and annoying. We pay 11ppm for acolytes and 15-19 for metamorphs thats insane for a t3 model with flack armor. especially when you consider we only have s3 pistols on those models that can't hit the broad side of a barn. Just check out a slugga boy if you don't believe me ITS IN THE SAME BOOK. As for over watch, yea sure I also play DE, i know the ways around overwatch, if they bubble wrap their army with the right units they don't even need to worry about your ambushing units to begin with. Best result is now staying over 9" away from enemies, meaning a simple daisy chain from cheap scouts by a marine player will put me in my own deployment zone lol. Every faction has a good screen btw. And if your relying on mass hypnosis just realize you only get the one attempt in matched play and your opponent can deny it. Trucks are a horrible answer btw, you pay over 100 points and if your assaulting then the autocanon is hitting on 5's.
Acolytes are great.You under estimate thier heavy weapons. They cost in the ball park of lascannons (a heavy weapon, that can be taken by 2 guard troops 30 points total, or a space marine for 25 points ~38) and do the same thing, but are subject to might from beyond and primus buff they can make them 3 attacks 2+ reroll 1's STR 9 -4ap 2DMG or Str 9 AP -3 2.77 DMG. Even with out it they compete pretty well against a lascannon at 2 attacks STR 8 good rend multi damage.
No I don't underestimate them actually. You are overestimating them. They don't cost the callpark of a guard lascanon mate, a guard HWT with lascanon is 24 ppm, you pay that JUST FOR THE WEAPON. The mining heavy weapons also are not a las canon equivalent, like not even close. They do far less damage, are weaker, and have a 1" range as opposed to 48" range. But hey look, rather then analyzsing their cost honestly, you just added in the buff from a primus, oh and look might from beyond? I thought we were using mass hypnosis, well I guess we need to pay for another caster, thats only 3 characters so far just to make one unit function. BTW saying it is comparable doesn't make it true, less range, less strength, less damage but more cost. In your world an over cost Ford Focus is somhow comparable to the Mustang on the same lot. I mean they are both cars...
On a side note i found out why you'd use the drill over the clippers today, and that's against invuln saves. 4+ and 5+ invulns the drilll starts to win out as the AP is the same, but the drill does more damage.
Which would be fine if they were priced fairly since 99% of the things I want to drill don't even have an invuln
Abberants are really good at smashing big stuff like land raiders, but acolytes can do this too with weapons for the similar cost, but then also stay decent at taking out squads of models. Where as once the big threat is gone, or if thier is no big threat you wonder why the abberants are on the table. Also for similar points you've got 8 wounds at T5 5+ save. Just feels kinda poor in a take all comers kind of list.
On this I aggree, I got excited for abberants until I realized a patriarch is in the same ballpark for cost, that said the hammers are our only source for s10 with consistent damage
Neophtyes are great i agree. If you do the math las cannons are better than mining lasers for the points FYI. in fact all of our mining weapons are kind of meh. Today shotgun neophytes were my MVP's they did work taking out 2 tack squads and almsot taking out a land speeder in single turn. Those guys are nuts.
Love genestealers, but acolyte feel abit better. the T4 and 5+ invuln aren't really worth it as you can mitigate over watch shooting via hypnosis or surrogate charge from our vehicles (either trucks or grinders from GSC or our AM chimeras and torax, or even scount sentials turn 1). From here the T4 is about going into other turns, but as you can assign your attacks you can hold enemy units hostage to protect you from enemy shooting, by surrounding a dreadnaught with genestealers, but alocoated most of your attacks into another unit so you spare the dreadnaught until your opponents turn. More over our ambush units make up thier points the turn they come onto the table. Acolyte can kill way above thier points cost the turn they hit the table.
But how? I can seemlessly add in a detachment of tyranids and suddenly I get genestealers for 12 ppm, thats only 1ppm more then an acolyte. Btw you have bragged about the iconward and suggested it was an auto take despite it being worse then last edition just because of the 6+++ yet here you suggest the 5++ GS save is not worth it. Makes zero sense, higher toughness and a guaranteed save is better. Acolytes can be punched to death easily by guardsmen with the beyonette order for Christ sake, ;et alone anything else in the game that is s4.
Scions are pretty good and do a similar role, but you'll get more out of acolytes that ambush on a 5+ it's more a risk play as i say above you'll only get a about 50% of the time, but when you do the pay off is just so much more. Acolyte get 2 rending attacks + 1 attack on str 4, and reroll 1's. Add in buffs which both can get, and acolyte definitly come out on top for most possible damage out put. Again here i think your look at that 4+ save and thinking that's where it's at, but the point of a cult ambush is that one good charge that more than pays for itself, and anything extra is gravy.
I'll chalk this up to a lack of experience with guard, I have 20k points of guard and about 120 scions. They conveniently got insane this edition (nerf bat incoming) and your wrong here. That randomness of cult ambush compared to a 100% guarantee on deployment with better armor and weapons makes this silly to even argue.
GodDamUser wrote:I think a big thing with GSC is that in this Index is, it is designed to utilise Guard along side it.
It really depends as i've been saying Trucks are amazing!!! like all star units in the book . They kill other armor great with demo charges, and out dakka even a guard chimera with buffs in most situations against most targets. They are also wicked fast, and can take objectives on the map no problem. The rugged construction lets them stay around longer than a chimera s well. I think if you want to do mono GSC you need trucks in your list. In the game i played today my opponent with lots of melta and lasguns struggle to take out a truck per turn (from turn 2 on). While the trucks did great work with the demo charges just devastating enemy units. The amount of shooting these things put out per turn is crazy when matched with just how tough they are to take out.
How do you figure T6 4+ save is hard to take out? The chimera has a better save, higher toughness and it can use dual HF's for auto hits. The truck comes to 119 with demos and requires a squad in it to fire at point blank. If your assaulting to soak OW your not shooting the thing. Close combat also hurts our things you know. If it gets locked then it needs to withdraw, at which point nothing including passengers gets to fire. I think the Goliath is OK but not amazing. Keep it cheaper without demos and put 2 mining lasers and 2 GL in the back in cover and just fire without moving if you can.
I also ahve gained respect for the rock grinder as a nice acolyte transport, with the flamer. It over watches okay, and keep them safe, and lets you bring a hero like a magus to pocket buff said acolytes.
Other than that i'd say a lot of the units are paying a tax to cult ambush, but this tax is worth it. Nids are pretty bad at ambushing out side of lictors (i believe, which every one goes after characters, but that is also easily countered as your opponent will see it coming). Most of thier units have a tough time ambushing and then charging. You have to think tyranids need to bring a swarmlord who also needs a trygon on top of the unit of genestealers and brood lord to do what we can do with just a patriarch and the genestealers for half the investment. Also in this nid example you have to dazzy trains some of the genestealers back to the brood lord to keep thier +1 to hit buff, and the brood lord can't also charge with them on turn 1.
This is just wrong, we get taxed on every unit having cult ambush, yet only half can arrive using it. So really, we are paying twice for every unit that uses it. It's a horrible mechanic and frankly I wish we flat lost the ambush table and had models that were far less expensive. Not only that but your way off base on the Tyranids. A trygon gets you not only a unit of ambushers that can't fail a roll but also the fething trygon lol. And I have no idea why they would also need a broodlord and swarmy. Swarmy can simply double move himself and crash into their lines with the GS and that trygon. Your deperately reaching here if you are suggesting nids are worse then us. Nids are better at ambushing with rippers for Christy sake. The random table is garbage.
I think if you don't do trucks and grinders which are what we have that's good that isn't in ambush. Then ithink going AM to fill out your list is pretty good, and bring in 2 or 3 good ambush squads to support your AM force that is holding the table.
As for what to take in AM??? conscript wall with a gun line behind it, but you'll have a tough time making sure the table has hole in it that are 9" away from a enemy model where you can ambush onto the table. I like more aggressive models like the double flamer chimera where it can contest table space, and forces your enemy to deal with it instead of spreading out to try to prevent your ambushes. Scions are good, but redundant. There is only so much space 9" away from your enemy in some games, and it forces you to delay your army longer than you'd want.
Notable Am units: ( i haven't tried these so can be ignored abit)
Flamer Sentials (competes with scounts unit and stop enemy ambush units, none flamer options aren't worth the points due to heavy -1 to hit bring you to terrible 5+) (good counter charge unit)
Double flamer Chimera (similar to the truck, but need a turn to get into range. Force enemy to stay on thier side of the table. give you ambush space. Better than truck at anti infantry) (good counter charge unit)
Infantry platoons supported by officers (shoots holes into enemy lines to open up ambush space, and preasure the table)
Ratlling (preventing enemy ambush units, and keep you from getting zoned out from ambushes by scount units)
Sadly once you start taking guard you realize that they are just a better army so why not just play guard, it's the dame for tyranids. Thats why I'd rather try to make it work with GSC only units. I know it's duable but it is just So bland. You end up spamming neophytes with mining lasers. for example
10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML
880
incredibly cheap for the body count and you would be hard pressed to find a better source of anti tank/MC in the book. Neophye mining lasers do it better then anything.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/13 15:29:22
HAving faced anti ambush tactics. this why your whole army is ambush. IF your bring the trucks which are good with demo charges. You get way more dakka than you get out of a chimera for the point period. I don't know what your saying about can't shoot if your charging to soak over watch. your 6" away when you shoot then you charge after shooting, hitting on 5's is bad but if you need to move even a chimera to get your shot off you'll be in a similar situation.
a Lascannon heavy weapon team is 28 (20 for the gun, 2x5 points for the two dudes) points a rock cutter is 34 points for the dude and his weapon. Now doing some math here.
Rock cutter dude has 2 attacks hitting on 3's rerolling 1's wounding a land raider on 4's 2 damage an attack -4 AP. this is an average expected damage of 1.66666 after armor. damage per points for this model would be .044
The las cannon is 1 heavy shot hitting on 4's with no native buffs str 9 so wounding a land raider on 5's with -3 AP and your damage roll should average out to be 3.5. So an average expected damage with this weapon is .777 damage per shot after armor saves. damage per point you get for this weapon team is .0322
So as we can see while it seems like your paying ALOT more for less you actually get more out of the cutters. about 36% more damage from the acolyte than you get from your guard unit. Note the las cannon gets worse if you move or if the land raider gets cover or pops smoke, but the rock cutter also has to land it's ambush. I've done the math on the units and point for point the damage you get out of acolytes in most situations are pretty good. Even if we look at buffs acolytes can get +1 to hit and +1str & +1 attack on top of what they get. the AM lascannon can only get reroll 1's to hit and to wound. So the acolytes can be buffed even harder than the guard. Though might from beyond as you say can be denied.
As far as scout screens go my shot gun squad can ambush that scout screen for half the price and kill the whole thing in one turn. Then on the next turn i can ambush. I know because this is part of what happened in my game last night. Screening units are important for balance. If i could just walk up and get free super killy ambushes with my acolytes it wouldn't be fair at all, but i can clean up screens. Where a lascannon gets worse if i'm standing in cover which thier is no real counter play against.
I picked this example because it's one you used so you can see that acolytes are worth a thing. Sure it's alot of points on a squishy model, but it's also a model that has the potential to stay off the table for up to 3 turns waiting for the right moment to kill double or triple it's points in a single turn. Are you garenteed to get this?? no that would be super broken, but is it underpower heck no?
I've played 8 games of newhammer now and i ahve to say every game has felt pretty even, and i never felt like i didn't really have a chance. This can be said for all 8th edition armies. I wouldn't sit here getting stuck trying to compare our army together because; 1. as some one who has done all the math our ambush units do ALOT of damage for the points, and 2. you simply can't compare units too well across factions just play it how it is, and no your not getting screwed like in 7th.
Edit: on toughness of things liek the truck the difference between T6 and T7 is negligible. Most weapons damage you on the same rolls. maybe krak launchers wound you abit better. 4+ is a better against grav than a 3+, which was also an important feature of my last game. Melta treats a chimera and a truck the same except trucks deal with it better via thier rugged construction save. same is true for las cannons as both get a 6+ against what ever they take (just the truck rolls more dice against the damage, while the chimera just gets one roll before the damage roll). So SO i'd say over all as weird as this might seem to you the truck and the chimera are at the same toughness against most attack save for maybe bolt guns or something where the better armor save actualy matters a little bit over the rugged construction bonus save.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/13 18:21:04
mmimzie wrote: HAving faced anti ambush tactics. this why your whole army is ambush. IF your bring the trucks which are good with demo charges. You get way more dakka than you get out of a chimera for the point period. I don't know what your saying about can't shoot if your charging to soak over watch. your 6" away when you shoot then you charge after shooting, hitting on 5's is bad but if you need to move even a chimera to get your shot off you'll be in a similar situation.
a Lascannon heavy weapon team is 28 (20 for the gun, 2x5 points for the two dudes) points a rock cutter is 34 points for the dude and his weapon. Now doing some math here.
Rock cutter dude has 2 attacks hitting on 3's rerolling 1's wounding a land raider on 4's 2 damage an attack -4 AP. this is an average expected damage of 1.66666 after armor. damage per points for this model would be .044
The las cannon is 1 heavy shot hitting on 4's with no native buffs str 9 so wounding a land raider on 5's with -3 AP and your damage roll should average out to be 3.5. So an average expected damage with this weapon is .777 damage per shot after armor saves. damage per point you get for this weapon team is .0322
So as we can see while it seems like your paying ALOT more for less you actually get more out of the cutters. about 36% more damage from the acolyte than you get from your guard unit. Note the las cannon gets worse if you move or if the land raider gets cover or pops smoke, but the rock cutter also has to land it's ambush. I've done the math on the units and point for point the damage you get out of acolytes in most situations are pretty good. Even if we look at buffs acolytes can get +1 to hit and +1str & +1 attack on top of what they get. the AM lascannon can only get reroll 1's to hit and to wound. So the acolytes can be buffed even harder than the guard. Though might from beyond as you say can be denied.
As far as scout screens go my shot gun squad can ambush that scout screen for half the price and kill the whole thing in one turn. Then on the next turn i can ambush. I know because this is part of what happened in my game last night. Screening units are important for balance. If i could just walk up and get free super killy ambushes with my acolytes it wouldn't be fair at all, but i can clean up screens. Where a lascannon gets worse if i'm standing in cover which thier is no real counter play against.
I picked this example because it's one you used so you can see that acolytes are worth a thing. Sure it's alot of points on a squishy model, but it's also a model that has the potential to stay off the table for up to 3 turns waiting for the right moment to kill double or triple it's points in a single turn. Are you garenteed to get this?? no that would be super broken, but is it underpower heck no?
Your wrong about a lot of things in there. A HWT is not 28, the model is 4 pts plus the gun. A las canon is 20.
As for the trucks, again check your math. truck 66pts, twin AC +33, heavy stubber +8, demo cache +12. Your paying way too much for that garbage. Good luck getting to within 6" and having them remove models from the back so you still have a short charge after apparently great shooting? Or we can get a chimera with +1 toughness and +1 save with 2 HF for cheaper, it can move and advance while auto hitting. But even then, IMO paying over 100pts for a transport just to soak overwatch IF it makes combat seems a bit steap to me. EDIT wow those books get worse, a HF in the guard book is 17pts, in ours its 19 pts. Same Chimera guard one is 4ppm cheaper... Anyone suggesting we take these books as gospel needs to thin kagain, they were horridly edited for costs.
In regards to that horrible math on a land raider, what on earth are you reading? A las canon wounds a land raider on a 3+ dude. The rock cutter blows because you have to actually get to combat before you ever get to attempt to damage your target. Shooting a mining laser is inherently better then combat for the fact that it has 24x the range of your melee PLUS it wounds more often, is cheaper AND does more damage per shot. 11+23=34 as opposed to 5+14=19 you nearly get two mining lasers for every RC. 5 Acolytes with 2 RC= 101pts. 10 neophyes with 2 ML=78pts. I get 8 ablative wounds rather then 3. I get to hide in cover and I don't need to whether over watch in order to strike with my 1" range weapon. It isn't even a debate. It scales even worse. The neophytes never need to ambush either, so it's more reliable, more durable, and cheaper.
Let me get this straight BTW, you expect us to read your anecdotal evidence about ambushing a squad of chaf scouts with chaf neophytes and ignoring the fact that you need to roll above average in order to get a few bolter shots. Let's examine this more closely. You have to waste an ambush slot on shotgun scrubs, then you have to either use a primus for a reroll or burn a critical command point in order to get a 5 or a 6 OR you are just winging it in which case this is not a viable strategy. If you get a 5 you still need to advance above average again ie 4" in order to get into the strength 4 band, so what? another command point? So how many characters and or CP's aer we shredding through at this point? Then the math doesn't even help you out much once we get there, each guy hits on a 4+, wounds on a 4+ and the scouts get a 4+ outside cover, in cover or with camo and your wasting your time. So 10 shot guns only gets you 20*.5*.5*.5 for 2.5 dead scouts. Meanwhile you could have used the auto guns and rapid fired twice on a 5 for 40*.5*.33*.5 for 3.33 dead scouts. Shot guns and auto guns both wound speeders on a 5+ making it even worse for shot guns. Shotguns are fun but actually suck very badly next to autoguns and las guns due to their lack of range. It's way better off to use autoguns and mining lasers and just blow them away since your effective from pretty much any result on the table, or you simply deploy.
Also you should stop downplaying other armies while assuming every GSC buff. Yarrick is a fething steal and he lets you reroll ALL misses plus you can dish reroll 1's orders on AT weapons. Put him near several HWT's and they kill any big thing much better then anything in our army. No need to move with a 48" range either.
I've played 8 games of newhammer now and i have to say every game has felt pretty even, and i never felt like i didn't really have a chance. This can be said for all 8th edition armies. I wouldn't sit here getting stuck trying to compare our army together because; 1. as some one who has done all the math our ambush units do ALOT of damage for the points, and 2. you simply can't compare units too well across factions just play it how it is, and no your not getting screwed like in 7th.
So we are supposed to trust you in regard to crunching the numbers and finding out whats most efficient between factions for AT weapons but yet in the same breath we are not supposed to compare numbers across factions because it's not possible? This statement doesn't belong in the tactics forum, either make points based on solid data and accurate math or don't bother. Anecdotal evidence is fun but worthless ITT. Feel free to share it, as I enjoy reading it but don't expect us to take it as gospel.
I want to reiterate that I don't think the army is bad, but it's very annoying that the number of units that work decently fit on one hand. I am sure someone out there wants to field 200 neophytes but I am not one of them. Just for LAWLS 200 neophytes in 10 man squads with 2 mining lasers a piece is only 1560 pts... 40 mining lasers and 160 las guns. add a pair of patriarchs and a pair of magi and you can even spam smite as well while being fearless. Tank shock doesn't exist anymore so simply swamp the table and out number every objective. See, playable but boring.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/13 18:48:29
Thanks for the catch on me saying it wounds on 5's It was a typo, but the math was done on it hitting on 3's i just re did the math with a good old fashion calculator to make sure.
Though all the numbers that i gave as a result were not typo'd and the acolytes do more damage per points for thier upgrade.
You aren't required to take my word for it, but you'll notice quickly the lack of difference between T7 and T6, and you'll notice that against most weapons that will be shooting your trucks and chimeras will have effectively the same exact save with rugged construction.
acioytes vs neophtyes again the whole point of them is that money ambush where thier higher value damage can shine from the shadows. I know your seeing toughness and wounds as a thing, but wait till you see orc green tides... that big neophytes list wont stand a snow balls chances. Even if they were guard they'd be just as screwed, but these are things you'll have to experience on the table top.
I think you should definitely formulate your own opinions/ I'm just telling you what i've experienced, and ahve realized from abit of math hammer in my down time. If that doesn't satify you, then find the answers on your own.
Yeah, our group has collectively agreed with the naysayers. I have 100 acolytes that I converted from ork models. They're now turning into Kommandoes. They get twice the attacks for near 2/3 the points and are more likely to first turn assault where you want, eat your heart our acolytes.
I actually tend to agree with people that say neophytes in rock grinders is the best way to go. I think it is too. I also think that's silly that the army has to entirely ignore it's base rule.
I just think it's good for the people arguing that rock grinder neophyte squads are good to understand. Yes that may be the best combination, but a lot of us got into the army because we loved the unique play style which was basically removed. Rock Grinder neophytes driving around will probably be decent, but shooty troops in open topped transports is going to be very over done this addition and it's a shame that such a fun unique play style got removed.
So with all that being said. Let's try to move on. This is a tactics thread. So please try to come up with tactics that can do the best with what you can and try to keep the mourning period to a minimum. I probably won't be commenting on this thread much more (unless the codex fixes things) but to those staying with the army, good luck.
Like I said earlier, the response to every issue with GSC is "but with command rerolls, and multiple psychic powers, and hero buffs, X isn't as much of an issue." If every unit requires all of those things to be effective that's not good.
Looking at things neophytes in goliaths and puretrains are the only real way to go. Now I'm working on what to do with the the 1400 pts in my army that weren't those.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/06/16 22:18:06
So, I'm kind of in a "let's see how to make this work" spot with my GSC. Yesterday, I played a 100PL game against a friend's previously Admech War Convo list just to see how our previous lists fared in 8th. So neither of us had currently optimized lists, he had 6 grav servitors, a bunch of skitarii rangers, Cawl, 2 shooty Kastelans, 1 Dragoon, 1 Onager, and a Knight Crusader with Dakka/BC. I had a GSC Brigade detachment with at least 1 of pretty much everything in the codex.
It was not a pretty picture. I got second turn (obviously) and several of the units I had to start on the board just got wiped by shooting. On my turn, I got almost perfect Cult Ambush rolls - 6s for the Patriarch and his 15 Purestrains, 5 claw metamorphs, Aberrants and Iconward, and a unit of Acolytes with 2 heavy weapons. The Primus was the only one who rolled poorly ending up with a 2, but he still managed to get into a spot to try a 9" charge against an onager. all 3 Neophyte squads got 3s and 4s, but were still well within shooting range.
aaaaand I did nothing. Iconward, Aberrants, Metamorphs, and the 2 rock saw squad of acolytes did a grand total of 3 wounds to 1 Kastelan, Patriarch and Genestealers tried multi-charging Cawl and a squad of servitors and ate 8 wounds in overwatch thanks to rerolling hit rolls, then managed to kill 1 servitor and take Cawl down to 2 wounds (which he promptly just regenned). Primus made the charge but acolytes didn't, and the acolytes took several casualties to overwatch and then fled off the board from morale.
The next turn I was down to approximately 1/4 of my army, losing all the units I had previously charged into melee thanks to withdrawing and then shooting with the units I'd been stretched too thin to charge. Unsurprisingly, by turn 4 I was tabled.
This list is obviously not going to work - if I lose that badly with Cult rolls that incredibly good, I'll need to rework more than just my tactics. So, a few ideas:
1) Let's bring in some Brood Brothers. I need to be able to comfortably Ambush everyone I'd want to ambush, and cult Leman Russes suuuuuuck. Thankfullly, I also have guard, and double thankfully, I am something of a collector so I own 6 OOP Vostroyan Mortar teams, 3 Lascannon teams, and many heavy bolter teams. That and a company commander buys you a gumball (and free license to cult ambush everyone I want.) I'll throw a manticore in there too because it's cheap and was AMAZING in every guard game I've tried.
2) I think I need to put some more eggs in the basket. Instead of 4 squads of 5 Acolytes that die to a stiff breeze and risk it on a single CA roll, maybe 1 unit of 20 acolytes who can pair up with a Primus for a reroll. (Again, remember, I'm not trying to win tournaments here, just make gsc more playable).
2) Aberrants, Russes and Metamorphs are unspeakably bad. Cutting all of them in favor of more reliable shooty neophyte squads. I've got 2 autogun/GL/Mining laser squads and 2 shotgun/Flamer squads.
3) Rockgrinder and Scout Sentinel fared OK, and I think deserve a second chance. I'll stick a min acolyte squad with some demo charges in the rockgrinder mostly to man the demo cache and maybe pop out and melee something.
4) I think I'll try Chimera assaulting the Patriarch and his brood. They're just too valuable to risk on a single roll of the cult ambush dice. Sure, we pay an absurd tax for cult ambush, but we do have one thing Tyranid codex GS don't have: A transport! I hope this works, because it'd be one hell of an excuse for a combat limo conversion. (I'm thinking Taurox/Rhino Primaris kitbash maybe...)
Thoughts on any of these ideas? Might make GSC better/usable, if not tournament level competitive? Still crap?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
the_scotsman wrote: So, I'm kind of in a "let's see how to make this work" spot with my GSC. Yesterday, I played a 100PL game against a friend's previously Admech War Convo list just to see how our previous lists fared in 8th. So neither of us had currently optimized lists, he had 6 grav servitors, a bunch of skitarii rangers, Cawl, 2 shooty Kastelans, 1 Dragoon, 1 Onager, and a Knight Crusader with Dakka/BC. I had a GSC Brigade detachment with at least 1 of pretty much everything in the codex.
It was not a pretty picture. I got second turn (obviously) and several of the units I had to start on the board just got wiped by shooting. On my turn, I got almost perfect Cult Ambush rolls - 6s for the Patriarch and his 15 Purestrains, 5 claw metamorphs, Aberrants and Iconward, and a unit of Acolytes with 2 heavy weapons. The Primus was the only one who rolled poorly ending up with a 2, but he still managed to get into a spot to try a 9" charge against an onager. all 3 Neophyte squads got 3s and 4s, but were still well within shooting range.
aaaaand I did nothing. Iconward, Aberrants, Metamorphs, and the 2 rock saw squad of acolytes did a grand total of 3 wounds to 1 Kastelan, Patriarch and Genestealers tried multi-charging Cawl and a squad of servitors and ate 8 wounds in overwatch thanks to rerolling hit rolls, then managed to kill 1 servitor and take Cawl down to 2 wounds (which he promptly just regenned). Primus made the charge but acolytes didn't, and the acolytes took several casualties to overwatch and then fled off the board from morale.
The next turn I was down to approximately 1/4 of my army, losing all the units I had previously charged into melee thanks to withdrawing and then shooting with the units I'd been stretched too thin to charge. Unsurprisingly, by turn 4 I was tabled.
This list is obviously not going to work - if I lose that badly with Cult rolls that incredibly good, I'll need to rework more than just my tactics. So, a few ideas:
1) Let's bring in some Brood Brothers. I need to be able to comfortably Ambush everyone I'd want to ambush, and cult Leman Russes suuuuuuck. Thankfullly, I also have guard, and double thankfully, I am something of a collector so I own 6 OOP Vostroyan Mortar teams, 3 Lascannon teams, and many heavy bolter teams. That and a company commander buys you a gumball (and free license to cult ambush everyone I want.) I'll throw a manticore in there too because it's cheap and was AMAZING in every guard game I've tried.
2) I think I need to put some more eggs in the basket. Instead of 4 squads of 5 Acolytes that die to a stiff breeze and risk it on a single CA roll, maybe 1 unit of 20 acolytes who can pair up with a Primus for a reroll. (Again, remember, I'm not trying to win tournaments here, just make gsc more playable).
2) Aberrants, Russes and Metamorphs are unspeakably bad. Cutting all of them in favor of more reliable shooty neophyte squads. I've got 2 autogun/GL/Mining laser squads and 2 shotgun/Flamer squads.
3) Rockgrinder and Scout Sentinel fared OK, and I think deserve a second chance. I'll stick a min acolyte squad with some demo charges in the rockgrinder mostly to man the demo cache and maybe pop out and melee something.
4) I think I'll try Chimera assaulting the Patriarch and his brood. They're just too valuable to risk on a single roll of the cult ambush dice. Sure, we pay an absurd tax for cult ambush, but we do have one thing Tyranid codex GS don't have: A transport! I hope this works, because it'd be one hell of an excuse for a combat limo conversion. (I'm thinking Taurox/Rhino Primaris kitbash maybe...)
Thoughts on any of these ideas? Might make GSC better/usable, if not tournament level competitive? Still crap?
It is pretty bad how high risk with no reward our stuff is, which is odd because looking at the other armies (including ad mech which I also collect) the balance is actually pretty good, overall i think they did a great job with 8th. Then there's GSC...which for some reason is a total turd.
I'm thinking of trying the rockgrinders for acolytes too, because right now even my 8 man squads aren't worth anything, 5 in a rock grinder might be able to do something.
So we're basically a mechanized army now, best to forget about cult ambush, and forget about close combat. Instead roll around with neophytes in trucks and min acolytes in rock grinders, leave everything else at home.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/16 22:24:16
the_scotsman wrote: So, I'm kind of in a "let's see how to make this work" spot with my GSC. Yesterday, I played a 100PL game against a friend's previously Admech War
GSC are very poorly balanced by power level. Make a PL genestealer cult army, and convert it to regular points and any other army will have about 25-40% more points than you at the same Power level. As a heads up. What's more interesting admech PL wise are actually kind of the opposite where they tend to get about 10-20% more points per power level than most other armies.
IF you don't believe me the miniwargaming people i think said as much today,
One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet (and if someone has please forgive me), but it looks like units come with their cult icons now as they have no point cost to equip. This means Acolytes, Neophytes, and Metamorphs all have the ability to reroll hit-rolls of 1 in melee regardless of squad size and since wounds are allocated by controlling player they basically keep the ability until wiped out.
Anyway, I've only managed to get three games in with the army so far and two of them were only 1000 points, so take the following opinions with a grain of salt:
Iconward: I actually really like these, being a support HQ that can actually fight if needed. In my second game a pair of them shepherded my footslogging Neophyte and Acolyte squads around and bailed the former out when they got charged by assault marine squad via Heroic Intervention. The 6+ isn't something to be relied upon of course, but it does help a little bit against mortal wounds where a 6+ is better than no save at all. The moral reroll bubble in contrast was far more valuable, saving several Neophytes and Acolytes from bad moral rolls across the second and third games.
Acolytes: Based on the handful of games I've played, I don't think they are as bad as they have been decried but they aren't something one wants to spam excessively either. Between their innate -1 rending claws and all of their special weaponry either doing multiple wounds or having some ability that only works against multi-wound models, they are now tailored for cracking armor rather than infantry blending. I've been experimenting with a 5-strong squad with 2x Demolition Charges for 75 points (5 points cheaper than before). They basically pop out of a transport, toss charges, and then assault the target to finish it off if it survives. I've also gotten some work out of 10-strong units in the 2nd and 3rd games, though they were screened by Neophyte squads and were mostly used to wreck vehicles (though they did end up fighting some Nurglings in the last game - one time knives were more useful than claws).
Neophytes: As others have said, these are fairly solid grunts. I think they will cover the role of general purpose infantry, but they will still want some Acolytes sprinkled in to deal with heavier vehicles and tougher infantry that bounce autogun shots. Also wasn't terribly impressed with truck-mounted squads, they didn't really accomplish much compared to Acolyte squads using the same transport (being able to pop out and unstick the truck from melee tie-up squads is helpful). That said, the Neophytes do make excellent ambushers, since the 9'' away restriction puts them well within double-tap range for their autoguns and the S8 band with Seismic Cannons if taken. Plus, the only result on the ambush table they don't care for is a flat 1 (and even then, if they come on from a side edge they should still be able to get some shots).
Speaking of Cult Ambush, the biggest hurdle has been trying to use it to pull off a devastating first turn melee alpha strike like in 7th (I tried in my first game with predicable results). The problem basically boils down to the ability to back out of assault, making any successful 1st turn charge a piece trade at best. It still has its uses in getting melee units into a forward position where they can charge without having been shot at all game, but I think it is better to wait until the bulk of the army lines have met rather than spending ambushers on early aggression. The main benefit to this approach is that you can pin the enemy between multiple fronts and ideally be able to completely wrap around a victim to prevent it from escaping (had this happen in my second and third games - ambushing Acolytes charged into combats involving tied-up Neophytes, sandwiched the opposing models between the two squads and wiped them out).
The biggest issue I see is that GSO was designed to be the most glass cannon of glass cannons, more so than even eldar. The entirety of their survivability was in return to shadows and cult ambush. Plus we don't even have speed to make up for that with movement 6 on everything except pure-strains.
So with our weakness being no staying power, i'm thinking the best bet would be ally in some large tough tyranid units, things that are scary enough to make the enemy want to shoot at them, and beefy enough to not die the moment something looks at them. Bullet sponges to take heat off our paper dudes.
I mentioned this in another thread I created but thought it warranted being here too as we try to find some way to make up for the suck that is the current GSC.
My prime candidates are the good old distractionfex, which got so much better this edition, Haruspeex, Trygon, or Tyrannofex.
Currently i'm leaning towards 500 point of carnifex led by old one eye.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/20 22:03:28
I'm thinking of going the opposite way from Nids and taking a Shadowsword or a Baneblade to provide some heavy hitting for my Cult. Coupled with a couple of Punishers and maybe some Wyverns/ Basilisks supported by some suborned Infantry squads.
When the index releases at the weekend I will be considering some Malcadors (especially the Infernus) and maybe some Rapier or mortar batteries.
While the enemy is dealing with that lot I hope to jump in their face with some Acolytes and Purestrains.
Loopstah wrote: I'm thinking of going the opposite way from Nids and taking a Shadowsword or a Baneblade to provide some heavy hitting for my Cult. Coupled with a couple of Punishers and maybe some Wyverns/ Basilisks supported by some suborned Infantry squads.
When the index releases at the weekend I will be considering some Malcadors (especially the Infernus) and maybe some Rapier or mortar batteries.
While the enemy is dealing with that lot I hope to jump in their face with some Acolytes and Purestrains.
basically that's my plan as well, but I will be taking 3 Vandettas, and will be looking at maybe some Wyverns
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/21 01:22:01
Danny slag wrote: The biggest issue I see is that GSO was designed to be the most glass cannon of glass cannons, more so than even eldar. The entirety of their survivability was in return to shadows and cult ambush. Plus we don't even have speed to make up for that with movement 6 on everything except pure-strains.
In 7th I'd agree, but we did actually gain a fair amount of survivability with the changes wrought by 8th edition. Cover is now a 4+ for most of our units rather than a 5+ and very few anti-infantry weapons actually ignore our save now. We also are one of a handful of factions that has near universal access to a feel no pain equivalent for negating mortal wounds, even if it is only a 6+.
Also for what it is worth, a 6'' move actually is slightly above average now, as most footslogging infantry dropped to a mere 5'' for movement (main exceptions are Eldar, Marines, and 'nids). I do think Return to Shadows will make a comeback in the codex whenever it ends up being released, either as an army specific stratagem or as a command benefit for a revised Cult Uprising detachment (remember, most of the perks for Cult Ambush in 7th came from the Uprising detachment - most of the army couldn't even use Cult Ambush on the first turn without it).
In any event, I had another game with the index tonight against Grey Knights and it ended in a draw. He got First Blood, Line Breaker, and 2 Objectives while I had Slay the Warlord (blew up Voldus with Demo Charges ), Linebreaker, and 2 Objectives. I think I probably would have won outright had I held back my main melee Acolyte blob instead of going for an alpha on one of his isolated squads (old habits die hard), but it was a very close game overall and we were both pretty tattered by the end. I really do like the Iconwards though, I only lost 1 model to moral all game thanks to the reroll ability.
I'm getting on the GSC train late in the game (well early for 8th), and they are obviously lacking in terms of staying power without access to RTTS. Hopefully more faction specific bonuses will come out in the near future to make up for what was lost across the board, but I'm looking forward to getting everything built and put on the table.
Some things I'd like to see FAQ'd would be the Saw/Crusher points or bonus added to Saw and if they are going to charge points for taking a Cult Icon.
I'm on the fence with Demo Charges, as it is only a one use weapon unless you take a Truck along (and spend more points). I suppose smaller groups of Acolytes will be wiped out after the first assault anyway, but you can't start in range to use it and I don't expect to go first very often.
Currently I have two boxes of Neophytes and two boxes of Acolytes, with the Deathwatch Overkill box on the way to add more bodies and HQs. Built up one squad of Neophytes with Shotguns and an Icon, with the other set running Autoguns and Seismic Cannons since Mining Lasers are included with Overkill. I haven't had this much fun painting an army since I started, so I'm looking forward to the rest. May end up sticking the Autoguns in a Truck, with Shotguns ambushing and hoping for the best.
Acolytes are gonna start off in two ten man units with support from HQ's, with sets of Rock Drills in one squad and Rock Crushers in the other. I'm kind of bummed that they share a box with the Metamorphs as we only get one of each special weapon, and the kit comes out to $40 alone... I see some more ebay shopping in my future for bits. They will be ambushing until I get a better feel for how the Trucks play.
The last purchase I need to make to get around 1000 points will be a box of Genestealers. This will set me up with around 50 models, and I think will serve as a good base (not too many choices) for starting a larger force.
Lots of great advice in this thread! I played my first game of 8th yesterday and went with using Cult Ambush on all my choppy units (Patriarch, Genestealers, Abberants etc) and despite rolling great on the chart I still failed all my charges and got blasted off the next turn lol.
So the general consensus is to squeeze in as many trucks (Goliaths and Rockgrinders) as possible and equip them with Demolition Caches? I was thinking of mounting the Purestrains in Goliaths, running the Patriarch behind and going for a turn 2 charge.
I know people have said Neophytes can be good in the shadows because you can drop them into shooting range, I imagine they would be good for objective play too, to drop them on objectives where needed.
From my understanding you can ally in both AM and Nids into the same army (choose the "Tyranid" faction, and ignore the AM Keyword as stated in the Broodbrothers rules). What interesting combinations can you think of for a GSC + Nid + AM list?
Looking forward to hearing more
Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-)
From my understanding you can ally in both AM and Nids into the same army (choose the "Tyranid" faction, and ignore the AM Keyword as stated in the Broodbrothers rules). What interesting combinations can you think of for a GSC + Nid + AM list?
the issue with a triple threat list, is that you can never take a decent amount of anything.
That being said they can work well, but with Tyranids buffs mainly being Hivefleet there isn't a lot of synergy between the two considering the overlap of models..
the only thing I would really take in a 3 way list from the Tyranids is a Spearhead with OOE and 3+ Carnis
Bottle wrote: Lots of great advice in this thread! I played my first game of 8th yesterday and went with using Cult Ambush on all my choppy units (Patriarch, Genestealers, Abberants etc) and despite rolling great on the chart I still failed all my charges and got blasted off the next turn lol.
So the general consensus is to squeeze in as many trucks (Goliaths and Rockgrinders) as possible and equip them with Demolition Caches? I was thinking of mounting the Purestrains in Goliaths, running the Patriarch behind and going for a turn 2 charge.
I know people have said Neophytes can be good in the shadows because you can drop them into shooting range, I imagine they would be good for objective play too, to drop them on objectives where needed.
From my understanding you can ally in both AM and Nids into the same army (choose the "Tyranid" faction, and ignore the AM Keyword as stated in the Broodbrothers rules). What interesting combinations can you think of for a GSC + Nid + AM list?
Looking forward to hearing more
Just remember if you plan on ambushing anything the nids need to be in their own detachment.
I've also combined what was 3 units of 7 acolytes into 2 units of 10. They're still way overcosted, but I think with this edition and the inability to rts more bodies is important rather than more units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/23 15:55:43
Thoughts on the heavy rock weapons for acolytes? I'm trying really hard to find a way these guys are useful over just taking more purestrain.
The weapons are really expensive on a squishy overocosted unit, but if i'm going to take acolytes i'm feeling like having an overcosted unit that does something nothing else in the army can vs an overcosted unit that really doesn't is better. Rock Drills are our only source of mortal wounds, which I heard from age of sigmar players end up being a lot more important than you'd think. I ordered bits to make 4 rock drill acolytes since all of mine were built bare bones, but wondering if anyone has tried the rock weapons in 8th.
Danny slag wrote: Thoughts on the heavy rock weapons for acolytes? I'm trying really hard to find a way these guys are useful over just taking more purestrain.
The weapons are really expensive on a squishy overocosted unit, but if i'm going to take acolytes i'm feeling like having an overcosted unit that does something nothing else in the army can vs an overcosted unit that really doesn't is better. Rock Drills are our only source of mortal wounds, which I heard from age of sigmar players end up being a lot more important than you'd think. I ordered bits to make 4 rock drill acolytes since all of mine were built bare bones, but wondering if anyone has tried the rock weapons in 8th.
Rockcutter > Drill > Saw
Rockcutter is the best (also cheapest option), the drill is also good against vehicles and high wnd count models.. the Saw you never take as it is more expensive than the cutter and has basically the same stats without the special rule
Danny slag wrote: Thoughts on the heavy rock weapons for acolytes? I'm trying really hard to find a way these guys are useful over just taking more purestrain.
The weapons are really expensive on a squishy overocosted unit, but if i'm going to take acolytes i'm feeling like having an overcosted unit that does something nothing else in the army can vs an overcosted unit that really doesn't is better. Rock Drills are our only source of mortal wounds, which I heard from age of sigmar players end up being a lot more important than you'd think. I ordered bits to make 4 rock drill acolytes since all of mine were built bare bones, but wondering if anyone has tried the rock weapons in 8th.
Rockcutter > Drill > Saw
Rockcutter is the best (also cheapest option), the drill is also good against vehicles and high wnd count models.. the Saw you never take as it is more expensive than the cutter and has basically the same stats without the special rule
yeah that saw has to be some sort of typo, you're right there's no reason to take it.
i was debating the drill vs rock cutter myself. I honestly don't even really know if I came to a decent conclusion and could be totally wrong. But my thinking is that the drill is more universally useful. the cutter is only going to be useful on things that have less than 6 wounds. and even then it really is only likely on models with less than 4. So it'd be great against 2-3 wound models, but against anything larger which most monsters and vehicles have 8+, it's special ability won't work until they've been beaten up quite a bit already. A drill on the other hand will almost always do an extra wound, mortal so it doesn't allowsaves, and is useful no matter how many wounds a model has over 1.
Spearhead Detahcment Iconward 3x Rockgrinder (Incinerator, and Demo Cache)
Air Wing Detachment 3x Vandetta
So the idea is Vandetta's obvious long range support, most likely in hover mode.. Charge across the board with the Rockgrinders Pop up with Genestealers (probably Turn 2)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/28 00:18:26
The problem I see with loading up Goliaths is that you've already paid more per model for Ambush and their +4 BS limits the effectiveness of the Heavy Weapons (on Rockgrinder) firing. You also have to disembark before it moves again, so you may not always have a good choice available for Turn 2 charges. I do like that you can hold off on Ambushing to link up with the Trucks though.
I'm still ordering two Trucks for a bit more variety, but I think they will be better suited for moving my Neophytes. I'm going to try the Demo Charges out to see how well they work as well, but I still have a few more models to build (and a bunch more to paint)
So the FAQ is here. Heavy Rock Cutter (only) gets -1 to hit, so it's cost makes a little more sense. Pure strains are now 10 points (!!!) and their extra Talons are free (in line with Hive Fleet Genestealers).
), Linebreaker, and 2 Objectives. I think I probably would have won outright had I held back my main melee Acolyte blob instead of going for an alpha on one of his isolated squads (old habits die hard), but it was a very close game overall and we were both pretty tattered by the end. I really do like the Iconwards though, I only lost 1 model to moral all game thanks to the reroll ability.
