General Annoyance wrote:
A rifle is not a melee weapon, unless it has a bayonet, which Pulse Rifles don't. It is an improvised weapon at best, in the same way that a spoon can be a melee weapon; it's not being used for its original intention. It is, however, a form of defence at the very least, something a tank can't do for sure, hence why Tau tanks can have Flechette Dischargers.
The issue is that melee is distasteful. Instead of engaging in a distasteful action with poor tools, it would be far less distasteful for the Tau to employ a non-melee system like flechette dischargers.
The difference for the Tau between being almost completely ineffectual and being incapable is so low that, for almost all intents and purposes, a Fire Warrior may as well be considered to have no effective means of defense. That's why a Flechette Discharger would absolutely make sense for Fire Warriors (but not something they could carry).
And AGAIN, mentioning Fire Warriors is an accidental non sequitor. the
OP, and this discussion, has centered on Crisis Suits, and the comparative distaste between hitting things with crisis limbs versus setting off flechettes to mulch enemies who try to initiate the distasteful practice of melee combat.
And by its nature, the Flechette Dischargers are not what you'd term a melee weapon (at least, not in the same category as Fusion Blades and Onager Gauntlets), but are far, far, FAR closer in their intent, focus, and use to the Flamers/Grav/Repulsor side of tech development.
They are, I didn't say they weren't. This is more about standardising such equipment for melee combat. In addition, you could argue that equipment like a Grav Inhibitor or a Repulsor Field is designed more with the intent of stopping the enemy from ever reaching you, rather than planning for when they do reach you.
No, the Grav and Repulsors aren't necessarily designed for when they reach you, but other technologies developed (including exactly the technology we've been discussing, through R'Myr's special suit) most certainly are, including the Vectored Retro-Thrusters and the Failsafe detonator. The Tau have explicit examples of them designing technology around their worst case scenario to cover their weakness... I'm having trouble understanding why you're so resistant that the Tau would further develop an existing technology, which they've already prototyped, that also fits that paradigm which performs the function of one (Failsafe) by killing the enemy for their distasteful practice and arguably helps perform the function of the other (VRT) by causing enough casualties to drive the enemy off, thereby allowing escape.
The Academics include a wide variety of training circumstances. Though they are WS 2 (representing minimal training), they aren't completely inept (which would be better represented by WS 1, as seen by the Earth Caste Piloting Array which represents a truly untrained individual).
An Imperial Guardsman only receives basic hand to hand combat training, but is WS3. Meanwhile Gretchin, who hate Close Combat, are also WS2. Conscripts are also WS2; it represents an untrained individual rather than someone with minimal training.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Conscripts and Gretchin would almost certainly fall under "minimal training" in my mind (Conscripts through their experience in a rough-and-tumble world before they were conscripted, Gretchin through genetic memory and surviving around Orks long enough to make it into battle). That's why I brought up the Earth Caste Piloting Array, which drops the
WS from 2 (minimally trained Fire Warrior) to 1 (untrained Earth Caste).
They are designed to deal with crises, and the Tau are learning, through hard and painful experience, that Close Combat is a crisis that they can and have to be able to deal with. A Crisis suit is not designed to dive into combat, but it is certainly designed to deal with Close Combat scenarios (through various means - flamers, CFD systems, Repulsors, and yes, Flechette Dischargers).
I think you're taking the name "Crisis Suit" way too literally. The Empire created them to serve as highly mobile weapon platforms, since Fire Teams do not carry any heavy weaponry. The only two CQB weapons a Shas'ui would have available to them is the Fusion Blaster and the Flamer. They get up close, but not face to face.
They get up close, which increases the likelihood that they'll face the distasteful melee intentions of the enemy. The Tau have developed multiple battlesuit systems designed around their proximity to the enemy and the consequent risk of melee. Again, Crisis suits are not designed to engage in melee, but they are designed to handle it due to their higher likelihood of encountering it (through the different systems they can be equipped with).
But I'd agree that Crisis Suits are not the cutting edge of Tau tech explicitly designed around the white-of-their-eyes Close Support ranges that make melee such a prominent, necessary-to-design-around threat - that honor goes to XV9s and the Y'vahra. In fact, if memory serves, doesn't one of those variant XV10 series suits have a Nova Charge that basically acts like a Flechette Discharger?
Given the cost in changing the design of Crisis Suits to avoid having them kill each other with their fellow's Flechettes (which is, in my opinion, the strongest legitimate reason why
FD's might not be used), it may not make economic sense to make
FDs standard issue or mass produced for Crisis suits... but Hazard Suits and Y'vahra, given their relatively restricted numbers, would not have nearly the same economic limitations.
And what I'm trying to get across is that a Flechette Discharger sized/adapted for a Crisis battlesuit is far less like a Fusion Blade or Onager Gauntlet, and far more like an Overwatching Flamer, boosted shooting through the Counterfire Defense System, and slowed movement through Repulsor technology.
It is, this still makes it a Melee oriented weapon,
imho. Very much a possible invention, but one that will not see standard issue or use.
It isn't a possible invention, it is an existing invention. The Tau have already developed it in a prototypical form. The question at hand is whether the cost of making it mass produced is worth its weight in effectiveness.
I agree that having it standard issue would be unlikely (I mentioned it, but that had a lot of "ifs" attached, all of which I find unlikely to be the case), but standard use is an entirely different apple. Counterfire Defense Systems and Flamers are standard use, and they are the closest equivalent to a Flechette Discharger we've seen, with the only difference being the timing of the cloud of death aimed at the enemy. It involves greater risk (you're more likely to end up engaged in melee) with far greater reward (instead of stifling the charge, you have the possibility of sweeping the enemy by mowing them down as they flee from a more exposed position).
Jefffar wrote:There are photon dischargers, which are battlesuit defensive grenades.
They don't have to be placed in such a way as a Flechette Discharger would have to be to hit anything, and their Blacksun Filters will deal with the close proximity of the grenade's explosions.
The where has been mentioned (if you missed it, XV9 Hazard Suits have these as standard wargear, akin to
BSF and
MT), and I'd agree that Photon Dischargers are probably significantly cheaper and easier to maintain in comparison to Flechette Dischargers (though probably less effective in dealing with a melee threat).
Edit: So I looked again at the Y'Vahra and R'varna rules, and as standard issue, the YV comes with "Flechette Dispersal Pods" and the R'V's nova can cause an Electromagnetic Shockwave, acting mechanically like a cross between R'myr's mini
FD and Haywire grenades. Edit 2: and the R'V battlesuit has a standard issue Flechette Discharger (with modified rules, almost exactly like R'myr's mini
FD).
Since practically everyone in this thread is in agreement that giving Crisis suits mass-available
FD is a BAD IDEA for gameplay purposes (myself obviously included), the concept of a battlesuit-based
FD could instead be restricted to models specialized in the close-range support role that traditionally was held by Crisis Suits.
That would, in my mind, mean restricting them to Hazard and Y'Vahra suits (the latter of which already has standardized technology, so can be ignored). Some might argue that the Riptide should also be able to get one (given both XV10 suit variants have some version of one), but that would cause such a gak-storm of hatred and fury, it would blot out the sun.
The question remains whether we can come up with appropriate rules that could make standard-issue, battlesuit-sized
FDs reasonable when restricted to Hazard Suits.
I think this will be my last response. I believe I understand (even when I do not agree) your arguments, and your answers indicate you seem to understand mine (and where they might have been misconstrued, I've tried to explain above).
If you really want the last word, feel free, but I don't see anything useful coming out of it unless you've got something new to add.
Cheers, and thanks for the interesting debate/discussion.
