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No re-rolls for saves - only modifiers. FNP no better than 4+++. Rework psy powers so that there is no stupidity like invis and electroexchange.

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:
I think everyone is barking up the wrong tree here.
To fix a GW problem, first you must think like GW.
If things are getting too big then we need BIGGER counters!
More powerful spells designed for killing those units and bigger, better guns.
Sure that might also make smaller things that we have in our collections insignificant and extremely easy to kill but then we'll have an excuse to go and get some cool new big models.
Quite how this thread has lasted this long without a sensible solution is beyond me.

We could make D weapons no saves of any kind again so it bypasses 2++++

And than introduce 2+++++ saves that would save against things that ignore 2++++.

Take the rulebook, bin it, Take the LotR: SBG rulebook and scribble out the cover. You now have a much better skirmish game with a serious focus on the individual heros in the force, decent cover rules, a magic system to use for psi etc that works nicely

draft what you want each codex as in rules and abilities in one pass so they don't contradict each other, a summary release to sit alongside the main book with the more detailed ones to follow but all knowing the power level.

Adapt vehicles to be basically tough creatures with a different way of moving depending on wheels, tracks, flying etc.

Call it a day and have lunch

The background of 40k is amazing, keep it, the rules are terrible, bin them and replace them with the vastly better system GW has already written the mechanics for

 Formosa wrote:
Remove current psy phase, totally and utterly bin it, put fantasies magic phase in, keep the 12 dice cap, give tau a +2 to dispel and Necrons, kind of like dwarves, that will open up all sorts of options to psy items, I'd even add a "acheotech" common items list that all armies can take from.

I get where you are coming from, but daemons NEED the psyker phase, they are absolute gak without it, and putting a cap on their wc drags them down to completely useless garbage.

Just make balanced codexes and powers in the first place, and issues like unkillble deathstars won't happen

All this talk about 2++ rerollables... Is it really that much of a problem? I tried running as much 2++ as i could, and my army felt like a big stupid limp noodle.

I really think the only reason people think this tactic is powerful is because they waste effort and shots attempting to hurt the unit with that save. Fething ignore it! The daemon player is drastically wasting points on durability that he won't be able to use if you don't attempt to damage it! Those points spent in durability will mean he is relatively unable to remove your units, so focus on the rest of his army and enjoy winning games when the daemon player is forced to try and move you off objectives with his complete lack of killyness on the unit he has left.

As for the other deathstars... Just put the bonuses in other marine dexes after a Chapter Tactics designator. Bam, superfriends over.

Its not just Daemons that can make use of the 2++ reroll, theyre just the biggest abusers of it. These sorts of Daemon armies have placed very well at and won numerous tournaments over the last few years, they arent dumping so many points into the deathstar that they become incapable in other arenas.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
All this talk about 2++ rerollables... Is it really that much of a problem? I tried running as much 2++ as i could, and my army felt like a big stupid limp noodle.

I really think the only reason people think this tactic is powerful is because they waste effort and shots attempting to hurt the unit with that save. Fething ignore it! The daemon player is drastically wasting points on durability that he won't be able to use if you don't attempt to damage it! Those points spent in durability will mean he is relatively unable to remove your units, so focus on the rest of his army and enjoy winning games when the daemon player is forced to try and move you off objectives with his complete lack of killyness on the unit he has left.

As for the other deathstars... Just put the bonuses in other marine dexes after a Chapter Tactics designator. Bam, superfriends over.

2++ rerollable TWC are a thing, too. That's a lot of S10 AP2 to be ignoring.

Okay, didnt know TWC could do it. Thats just plain absurd.

Screamers have about as much offensive power as a wet sock, however. I didnt think the screamerstar build had been relevant in the meta for quite some time now.

The thing is models are both easier and harder to kill then you would expect at a glance.

You have to roll to hit, roll to wound, and then pass a save. With each successive roll you are most often loosing dice from the dice pool. 6 shots at average BS will get 3 hits, based on str and toughness and luck it's fair to say your loosing at least 1 of those. A 2+ save roll means you have a 1 in 6 chance that each of your 2 dice will actually cause a wound. If you reroll that 2+ at 2+ you drastically reduce the chance that anything will get through.

While 1 wound is often enough to just flat out kill a single model you have to get through so many barriers to actually do that. The rerolls are just unnecessary. If your going to give the option for a rerollable save it should be at 6+. You fail your 5/6 save or whatever and now gain a 1/6 chance to make it up. It's much better then not having the reroll without being such a major barrier for the attacker.

While everyone wants their units to stick around a core component to these games actually functioning is the fact that units are all at risk and they are going to die over the course of the game. You need to make intelligent choices to help mitigate threat and losses, not charge forward because the chance of loosing anything is so small that you can risk it willy nilly. It is much more damaging to the game as a whole to have a whole unit shoot at another unit and have it accomplish nothing then it is for you to loose a few models or even a unit in a round of shooting.

The fact that a unit is durable but weak does not matter. Nothing takes away the damage to the game that just walking through a massive hail of attack dice unscathed does. That issue is only compounded when a unit is both durable AND killy. In order for the game to actually function on any level it needs to have some basic core design conceits. That starts with the idea that everything is at risk of being removed because if units are not at risk of being removed then it's just hyper durable units chucking dice at each other and accomplishing nothing. Each turn each player should be capable of making some kind of progress towards reducing their enemy. These deathstars/hyper durable units place all that progress on one side of the table and nothing grinds the fun of the game to a halt faster.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Okay, didnt know TWC could do it. Thats just plain absurd.

Screamers have about as much offensive power as a wet sock, however. I didnt think the screamerstar build had been relevant in the meta for quite some time now.

You have to spend points on the attached heralds to give it an offensive punch (like buying them Greater Aether Blades and a Staff of Change for a bunch of S4 ap2 attacks per herald) but daemons just do better summoning and controlling the board

You also could just make a Chaos Knight of Tzeentch 2++ rerollable