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Recent Tau lore leads me to believe they will be discovering warp drives or their own style of FTL drives that will enable them to expand even more rapidly.

They have Imperial ships (as per previous Tau Codex's) and so they could be using operational Warp Engines - they have psychic client races so they could navigate. However this would bring them into the warp and bad things will happen to ships and crews. It possible that at the end of the recent campaign some Tau ships did get sucked into the Warp IIRC as they were observing translations.

They could also discover something along the lines of the Necron drive or even the Tyranid one - although they tend not to go in for bio-tech as far as I can tell?

They could also be devoured, enslaved or destroyed by their own burgeoning AI population (who also may well be of interest to Chaos)

Nope the latest lore the Tau don't understand it, but were beginning to. As you said they were able to guess where the translations would have to come from and ambushed them. A tau science ship was sent with tons of data to observe the warp transfer and was never reported in Tau space again (that we know).

If the Ethereals have warp drives they are hiding them from everyone as there is simply no recorded use of it in any Tau lore I've heard of or heard people talk of.

Another clue we are getting close. I think the Ad Mech did some serious heresy and ignited the Damocles Gulf into a warp storm and since the Tau are rapidly developing shielding to get through it this could be the first prototype Geller fields.

If there is a Tau warp drive it is highly experimental and secret until our next cool campaign book (if that is the direction they take us in 8th).

Nah Tau like their AI. The ghostkeel pilots talk to and make friends with the AI personalities of their suits/drones like dogs. While this is seen as odd it's not forbidden. Tau culture is far more open to AI in general than the Imperium.

I do think we should see more advanced Tau AI models though.

We know that the Tau have fully operational Imperial warships - including a Battleship (!) that defected to the Empire so they have warp drives - its in one of the Codexes. It may be a conscious choice not to use them.

I seem to recall that a novel had them trying to get hold of a Navigator - I think its the one with the White Scars. On the other hand they do have their own Psychic clients so its a choice not to use them?

I also don't believe that they don't know the Kroot have Warp Drive tech, that would mean the Tau intelligence operation / info gathering / client race monitoring is laughable and that's very un Tau like.

I have never heard that the Damocles Gulf was now a Warp Storm but it was plasma? Weird but that's the text IIRC, again they will have working Gellar fields if they need them - retro-engineering them would not be impossible but tricky given the way Imperial tech is built and often including biotech (ie human servitors) which the Tau find adhorent.

Its not relevant if the Tau like their AI, the warp can whisper and tempt them, offer them many things - and then bad things can happen. Or they simp0ly go Terminator/Necron on them and decide that the biological life forms are the issue.

A tau science ship was sent with tons of data to observe the warp transfer and was never reported in Tau space again (that we know).

Anyone watched Event Horizon

 Galef wrote:
While I agree from a fluff perspective, GW has invested WAAAAAAAAAYYY more into Tau than they ever did for the Brets. If they do a 40K end times, you bet you @$$ Tau will live through it. Tau is a rather large line of miniature and arguably 40Ks most futuristic, which adds to 40K's identity.

At worst, Tau will get rolled into another army, likely the Eldar

Fluffwise, the Eldar or Imperials could easily see Tau as a weapon against Chaos. In fact, it is speculated that this is the reason why Eldrad created the Tau in the first place.
You read that right. Eldrad created the Warp Storm that protected the Tau core worlds from exterminatus and allowed their civilization to thrive into its current form. It is even likely that some Eldar visited the Tau to instruct the original Ethereals.
If the End times comes around, I predict GW to roll Tau into Eldar for this reason

 Kriswall wrote:

I guess the Eldar should nurture a nascent race and accelerate their culture and development to help protect things..

Bingo.

-

And in the typical Eldar fashion, the pointy eared gits did not capitalised on their creation. After all, it is possible for the Tau and Eldar to come to blows.

I have never said Tau don't posses warp drives of various types but they have all been so far unable to be understood. The humans in charge of a spaceship would be as likely of explaining the intricate details of how to build and use warp drives as you or I could explain how to create a NASA space ship. Quadruple so for Imperium humans who chant and sing the engines a lullaby before battle to make it start.

Originally the gulf was understood to be a roiling mass of gas and turbulent energy (that was not understood well) and very chaotic and it was impossible to navigate at the best of times until the upgraded FTL drives became possible. Even then there is only one safe route through it until it got blown up. Now its a roiling hell inferno and its implied that it might be turning into a full warp breach.

The way its described makes it seem mysterious enough that it could very well be a small warp breach/storm. So thus if that follows (and it very well might not) then the Tau are beginning to invent Geller fields and they don't even know it. Since the shields are currently prone to high failure rates but rapidly increasing in reliability. This i just a theory I have proposed based on my Tau lore obsession.

Tau FTL is quite interesting. 1/10th the speed of imperial drives (altgough they are supposed to have upgraded them to be faster now, the 1/10 was from BFG) but without the possibility of getting lost in warp or invaded by demons. They are hamstrung without psykers of there own, but this may just push them to more reliable forms of FTL. Or possibly to just move to using allied psychic races such as the nissacaar (psychic bears).

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
nissacaar (psychic bears).

I thought BFG vaguely described the Nicassar as psychic giant space slugs? Where did you read about them being bears?

Nevermind, just looked it up. The only physical description of a Nicassar was from an interview with Jervis Johnson who described them as "very flat polar bears". So I guess like a floating polar bear skin rug that was alive and could shoot mind bullets.

 chalkobob wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
nissacaar (psychic bears).

I thought BFG vaguely described the Nicassar as psychic giant space slugs? Where did you read about them being bears?

IIRC, one of the designers described them as "floating bears".

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 chalkobob wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
nissacaar (psychic bears).

I thought BFG vaguely described the Nicassar as psychic giant space slugs? Where did you read about them being bears?

IIRC, one of the designers described them as "floating bears".

Yeah, Jervis Johnson described them as very flat polar bears. My bad. Kind of ridiculous but I would still by models if they were ever released, especially if the Tau could ride them like flying carpets.

I would certainly hope so, I hate the Tau.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Tau FTL is quite interesting. 1/10th the speed of imperial drives (altgough they are supposed to have upgraded them to be faster now, the 1/10 was from BFG) but without the possibility of getting lost in warp or invaded by demons. They are hamstrung without psykers of there own, but this may just push them to more reliable forms of FTL. Or possibly to just move to using allied psychic races such as the nissacaar (psychic bears).

I could have sworn the old Tau FTL travel was at 1/5 the speed of Imperial Drives. Alas, gotta go to school, so won't be able to check for a while.

Non psychic race is always will be dominated by psychic race. War in the heavens is an ultimate example of that and only reliance on minor species can Tau take away their major mobility flaw. They had this option for a long time, but decided to ignore it, calling it extremely risky and foolish. I do not expect highly scientific race to comprehend escoteric devices such as gellar fields or warp drives. It is basically a technology manipulating spiritual world which in itself does not transfer well into scientific equations, especially then without a shaman, it is impossible to use or to even begin comprehending that they are doing.


This is why there is no race in w40k who are not psykers and can use warp. Necrons are the ultimate example of this. Completely isolated from magic based powers, they failed to develop means of transportation nearly as rapid as old ones had.

Btw: major reason of why Tau is expanding is because of 13'th Black crusade and Tyranids. They merely capture forsaken sectors. It is a win win situation for everybody.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Tau FTL is quite interesting. 1/10th the speed of imperial drives (altgough they are supposed to have upgraded them to be faster now, the 1/10 was from BFG) but without the possibility of getting lost in warp or invaded by demons. They are hamstrung without psykers of there own, but this may just push them to more reliable forms of FTL. Or possibly to just move to using allied psychic races such as the nissacaar (psychic bears).

I could have sworn the old Tau FTL travel was at 1/5 the speed of Imperial Drives. Alas, gotta go to school, so won't be able to check for a while.

It has been 3 years since I've read it so that may be possible. And I know there is a quote about a new piece of tech doubling speeds, so that may be it.

As of the current lore the Tau drives are said to be 50% the speed of Imperials but I can't get a quote on this it might have been fan speculation due to the ship speeds presented in the campaign books. Tau are never simply content to let things be it seems.

How can you compare skimming the warp with traveling through the warp? These two methods of travel cannot be compared directly since:
1) Travel times in the warp are unreliable at best. This is why Imperial standard procedure is to readjust their time with a real space time, first thing to do after emerging from the warp. In theory, ship can even travel back in time and in any moment, Imperial ship can appear over planet Earth! But in more realistic way, time is more often stretched if you are took by the tides of the warp;
(I hate time traveling crap. In almost all cases it is a sign that writers feel clever and try to accomplish something they are incapable of writing. In almost all cases, lore and story goes to complete gak with any time travel story)

2) Warp storms and how much warp is soothed, influences time travel immensely. For example, if there is a warp storm raging, it is suicidal to enter since you will not only be flung to next side of the galaxy, but probably can emerge decades, centuries after. In theory, ships lost in the warp might emerge after life in the milky way galaxy almost ended and/or ship was flung into inter-galatic void;
In theory, heavy fighting or/and emotions can influence warp travel around the system. For example, carnage in Cadia and its sectors is of such immense proportions that it threatens to start another warp storm on top of it. More cunning humans used this as a warfare methods. Ever heard of a shadow crusade? Of Word bearers suicidal war against ultasmurfs?
Then a warp is calm, warp travel is immensely faster and more reliable. Huge jumps across the galaxy is hundreds if not thousands upon thousands times faster than Tau's method of FTL travel. Skimming the warp is good for short range jumps, but you will not save big nor achieve such immense mobility advantage as Imperium has, by having capabilities to materialize their fleets directly upon Tau core worlds, without any supply lines to maintain while Tau must and will always require to maintain Victorian era like supply chain.
(Also, I know that Imperium ships are self sufficient. They often are factories upon itself. Does anybody know how Tau is handling this matter? Low size of their ships (immature space age technology) indicates that they lack capabilities to sustain themselves in the long run)

3) Warp travel depends on astropath and strength of its engines. Imperial way of travel tends to multiply these advantages far, far more than Tau could ever achieve with identically raising technological level in engines;


Conclusion, if nothing that I knew had changed or I had overlooked some information, these two technologies cannot be compared directly against one another. In addition, I do not understand why you refuse to accept my view on the Tau. They are completely rational, scientifically based xenos race. This means that they have little to no spiritual capabilities. This in turn leaves warp based powers or magick completely out of their reach. In turn they cannot harness the same power as more ''spiritual'' species. Do you know any two extremes in the w40k lore to compare Tau against? Yes, old ones and necrothyr.

Btw: People often confuse necrothyr technology with necrons technology. This is not one and the same. Gods had given necrothyr many technological marvels and short lived goal driven species like a Tau certainly have a hard cap on how much they can achieve in this galaxy.

Ernestas wrote:Non psychic race is always will be dominated by psychic race. War in the heavens is an ultimate example of that and only reliance on minor species can Tau take away their major mobility flaw. They had this option for a long time, but decided to ignore it, calling it extremely risky and foolish. I do not expect highly scientific race to comprehend escoteric devices such as gellar fields or warp drives. It is basically a technology manipulating spiritual world which in itself does not transfer well into scientific equations, especially then without a shaman, it is impossible to use or to even begin comprehending that they are doing.


This is why there is no race in w40k who are not psykers and can use warp. Necrons are the ultimate example of this. Completely isolated from magic based powers, they failed to develop means of transportation nearly as rapid as old ones had.

Btw: major reason of why Tau is expanding is because of 13'th Black crusade and Tyranids. They merely capture forsaken sectors. It is a win win situation for everybody.

You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows, and you don't need a shaman or psyker to dissect and reverse-engineer the (completely material-based) Gellar Field generator, nor to replicate the field it can produce. There is no "magic" in the 40k universe, there is merely the Warp - just because it doesn't follow the physical laws of our reality doesn't necessitate it doesn't follow behavioral laws. The Tau aren't terribly experienced in the nuances of the Warp's physical laws, as you might suspect of a race which only encountered such phenomena relatively recently (in the scale of technological development and advancement).

Even if I knew absolutely nothing about the chemical makeup of water, I can still mimic the construction of a canoe I find or steal, and I can still use it to cross bodies of water.

But let's be explicit about the Tau: They have undeniably reverse-engineered the underlying "enter into the Warp" mechanics of some form of Warp Drive. Without navigator guidance and the protections of a gellar field (which was not among the items available to reverse engineer... at least, not until the Tau captured some Imperial Navy assets recently), travel directly through the Warp in a manner similar to the Imperials would be impractical and beyond dangerous.

Instead, the Tau developed an alternative form of travel, using their observation of the interactions between and within the space between normal reality and the Warp dimension, which undeniably interacts with the warp (thereby making your theory that non-psychic races can't manipulate warp-based technology an undeniably false statement). The particular mechanics I'll address when I reach your later comments.

Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Tau FTL is quite interesting. 1/10th the speed of imperial drives (altgough they are supposed to have upgraded them to be faster now, the 1/10 was from BFG) but without the possibility of getting lost in warp or invaded by demons. They are hamstrung without psykers of there own, but this may just push them to more reliable forms of FTL. Or possibly to just move to using allied psychic races such as the nissacaar (psychic bears).

I could have sworn the old Tau FTL travel was at 1/5 the speed of Imperial Drives. Alas, gotta go to school, so won't be able to check for a while.

It has been 3 years since I've read it so that may be possible. And I know there is a quote about a new piece of tech doubling speeds, so that may be it.

Having had a chance to review my sources, I'm looking now at a PDF excerpt which appears to start at page 96 of "Armada".

Also by comparison to actually navigating the warp the pace was still very slow. Taking typical Imperial Warp speeds the Tau drive was slower by a factor of five. The speed was consistent though, did not expose the Tau to the perils of the Warp and enabled the Tau to expand beyond their home star for the first time.

That was only the initial comparison in speed between Tau and Imperial Navy speeds.

In the Battlefleet Gothic 2010 Compendium, on page 157, it states that the first vessel created by the Kor Fleet initiative was:

Able to make interstellar dives nearly five times farther than conventional designs...

What this translates to, in terms of how much faster they are now, is uncertain to me. It was clearly an exceptional, exceeding-expectations level of boost, but the limitations (particularly for smaller ships with smaller gravitic drives) on recharge time suggest that this Tau method will probably never quite reach the speeds possible from traversing directly through the Warp. Of course, as the Tau technologies advance, the dive length increases, and the recharge time decreases, I don't think it would be unreasonable to suggest that the Tau Warp-skimming transportation technology could come reasonably close to the average Imperial Navy Warp Drive speed.

If Gamgee's statement is correct, and I don't really have reason to believe he isn't, then the Tau have already made a serious dent in the speed gap through the Kor'or'vesh engineering initiative.

Ernestas wrote:How can you compare skimming the warp with traveling through the warp? These two methods of travel cannot be compared directly since:
1) Travel times in the warp are unreliable at best. This is why Imperial standard procedure is to readjust their time with a real space time, first thing to do after emerging from the warp. In theory, ship can even travel back in time and in any moment, Imperial ship can appear over planet Earth! But in more realistic way, time is more often stretched if you are took by the tides of the warp;
(I hate time traveling crap. In almost all cases it is a sign that writers feel clever and try to accomplish something they are incapable of writing. In almost all cases, lore and story goes to complete gak with any time travel story)

2) Warp storms and how much warp is soothed, influences time travel immensely. For example, if there is a warp storm raging, it is suicidal to enter since you will not only be flung to next side of the galaxy, but probably can emerge decades, centuries after. In theory, ships lost in the warp might emerge after life in the milky way galaxy almost ended and/or ship was flung into inter-galatic void;
In theory, heavy fighting or/and emotions can influence warp travel around the system. For example, carnage in Cadia and its sectors is of such immense proportions that it threatens to start another warp storm on top of it. More cunning humans used this as a warfare methods. Ever heard of a shadow crusade? Of Word bearers suicidal war against ultasmurfs?
Then a warp is calm, warp travel is immensely faster and more reliable. Huge jumps across the galaxy is hundreds if not thousands upon thousands times faster than Tau's method of FTL travel. Skimming the warp is good for short range jumps, but you will not save big nor achieve such immense mobility advantage as Imperium has, by having capabilities to materialize their fleets directly upon Tau core worlds, without any supply lines to maintain while Tau must and will always require to maintain Victorian era like supply chain.
(Also, I know that Imperium ships are self sufficient. They often are factories upon itself. Does anybody know how Tau is handling this matter? Low size of their ships (immature space age technology) indicates that they lack capabilities to sustain themselves in the long run)

3) Warp travel depends on astropath and strength of its engines. Imperial way of travel tends to multiply these advantages far, far more than Tau could ever achieve with identically raising technological level in engines;

To answer your question directly, you compare the (extremely dependable) average speed for Tau vessels to the (extremely fluctuating) average speed of Imperial Navy vessels.

1. Since the Tau method of travel also involves diving into the warp, albeit in a far more shallow (and consequently far less dangerous) manner, the oddities of time and warp interaction also apply (to a lesser, more reliable, and more consistent extent) to Tau Warp travel. But even if we take into account the low probability for Imperium vessels to end up traveling back into time (and whether you like it or not, that's an explicitly acknowledge part of the WH40k background), the sheer number of Imperium vessels can give us a reasonably "average" speed.

2. I'm going to need a citation for Imperium travels speeds at "thousands of times faster" than Tau, and I'm going to need a reference to any area within the Imperium's borders where the Warp is ever even remotely close to calm enough to make that comparison worthwhile.

Don't get me wrong, the Imperium does have the mobility advantage (with greater risk comes greater speed), but you seem to be heavily overstating that advantage in your attempts to persuade. Hyperbole is not going to help your case here.

3. I think you mean "Navigator" and not "Astropath", correct? Astropaths are the Long Distance Telephone of the WH40k.

The fact of the matter is that no one is arguing that the Tau Warp travel method will ever surpass the raw (average) speed of the Imperium Navy, but the further the Tau perfect their technology (and frankly, that's kind of their theme - adapting and improving technology where damn near everyone else stagnates), the more comparable the speed of the Tau will be to the Imperium (especially in the current and future setting, in which the Warp is a roiling, stormy, dangerous place to travel no matter where you are in the galaxy).

What the Tau currently do better than the Imperium, namely consistent and safe travel (or as close to that as you'll find in WH40k - even the Eldar Webway isn't entirely safe in the 41st millenium), the Tau will continue to maintain through their Warp travel technology.

The further along the Tau develop their technology, in other words, the less advantage the Imperium will have when fighting in the Void. Being five times as fast as your opponent gives you the ability to dominate. Being twice as fast as your opponent gives you a sizeable mobility advantage (even if you end up killing a small portion of your forces every time you risk that speed, whether you need that speed or not). Being 25% faster than an opponent is an advantage, but far less overwhelming, especially when its riskier and far less reliable. Being 10% faster than an opponent is barely an advantage at all, especially if your tech is practically Ork-like in consistency in comparison.

In addition, I do not understand why you refuse to accept my view on the Tau. They are completely rational, scientifically based xenos race. This means that they have little to no spiritual capabilities. This in turn leaves warp based powers or magick completely out of their reach. In turn they cannot harness the same power as more ''spiritual'' species. Do you know any two extremes in the w40k lore to compare Tau against? Yes, old ones and necrothyr.

Probably because your view on the Tau is biased and myopic. You speak of them as "animals" and suggest that the term murder wouldn't apply (when sentience, not a "soul", is the far more common prerequisite for treatment as peoples rather than organic meatbags). If you're looking to persuade, there are far better ways to approach the discussion.

The Tau are not completely rational, merely mostly so. They are still subject to emotions (more and more so without Ethereal guidance).

The Tau probably won't be able to develop Psykers from among their own race, but that's not the end-all be-all of dominance (Recall, if you will, who eventually won the War in Heaven. Hint: They're still around, while the loser went extinct).

We KNOW for a fact that the Tau are capable of reverse-engineering Warp technology, as is explicitly demonstrated by their initial reverse-engineering of a Warp Drive and their more recent work (speculated) reverse-engineering of Gellar fields.

We KNOW that there are warp-based weapon and shielding systems that can be produced through technological means and can be wielded by those without any appreciable psychic potential.

We KNOW that the Tau have, in various quantities, 3 races within their Empire that have psionic potential: Nicassar (who mostly stay out of combat), the Kroot (who have shamans of their own, and can almost certainly develop greater psychic potential by devouring other psychic races like Orks, Eldar, and Humans), and Humans (who have no compunctions against flinging themselves head first into the crucible of conflict).

Between these three factors, the fact that the Tau race itself has exceedingly limited (but again, not non-existent) psychic potential means very little, so long as the Tau survive long enough to develop potent-enough technology and a large enough population (with a proportionally large enough industry for war) before they are overwhelmed by an undistracted Imperium (exceedingly unlikely, given how beset the Imperium is by all manner of more existential threats), a large enough WAAAAAGH! (a bit more likely, but given how dishonorably-by-Ork-standards the Tau fight, the Orks are more likely to look elsewhere for a fun fight), a sizeable Tyranid threat (even more likely, though even there the Tau have developed some seriously effective anti-tyranid biological weapons), and/or a resurgent Necron Empire (Not sure how likely, given we don't know the extent of Necron colonization in the Tau's small portion of the galaxy).

Btw: People often confuse necrothyr technology with necrons technology. This is not one and the same. Gods had given necrothyr many technological marvels and short lived goal driven species like a Tau certainly have a hard cap on how much they can achieve in this galaxy.

If you're referring to the C'tan, you're mistaken: they aren't Gods, merely exceedingly powerful beings entirely within material reality. I would need to re-read my Necron books to see how much they've contributed, but the fact remains that all Necron technologies are not warp-based, and they arguably have the most powerful tools available to them of any faction in Warhammer 40k (with or without relying on the Warp for potency and efficacy)

Regarding the hard cap on Tau technological achievement, I'm going to need a citation or explanation for that. The Dark Age of Technology establishes that mere technology can advance in incredible ways to absolutely incredible levels of potency, and I don't see anything restricting Tau from eventually reaching that peak (or beyond), especially given the material reality basis for Necron technological wonders.



TL;DR: Tau can, have, and will continue to reverse engineer warp-based technology, and adapt that technology to their needs and capabilities. The Tau Empire includes multiple psionic races under its umbrella, several of whom which could equal or exceed the current psychic potential of the Imperium. Necrontyr and Necron technology is not warp-based, and they are fairly well established as being the most potent force in the WH40k universe (with only a united Ork race, Tyranids, or Eldar at their peak being able to even contend with them on a nearly-equal playing field... and even then, likely failing to match).

Good write up.

An interesting poster suggested that if GW do go with them getting traditional warp drives one possible solution is artificial navigator AI ala Dune series of novels. This is pure speculation however.

 Gamgee wrote:
An interesting poster suggested that if GW do go with them getting traditional warp drives one possible solution is artificial navigator AI ala Dune series of novels. This is pure speculation however.

There are automated warp navigational systems in 40k lore.

Again exposing an AI to the Warp is risking an Event Horizon style incident.

Are the Tau still relying on Messenger boats for interstellar communication - if so that seems to be being ignored in recent fluff?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
An interesting poster suggested that if GW do go with them getting traditional warp drives one possible solution is artificial navigator AI ala Dune series of novels. This is pure speculation however.

There are automated warp navigational systems in 40k lore.

Again exposing an AI to the Warp is risking an Event Horizon style incident.

Are the Tau still relying on Messenger boats for interstellar communication - if so that seems to be being ignored in recent fluff?

The current Tau codex, mentions entanglement communications, which would indicate non-warp based FTL communication.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
An interesting poster suggested that if GW do go with them getting traditional warp drives one possible solution is artificial navigator AI ala Dune series of novels. This is pure speculation however.

There are automated warp navigational systems in 40k lore.

Again exposing an AI to the Warp is risking an Event Horizon style incident.

Are the Tau still relying on Messenger boats for interstellar communication - if so that seems to be being ignored in recent fluff?

Then you've never read Dune series I take it. Navigating in that universe is nearly as dangerous as this one and it was considered impossible for an AI to do it. It took tens of thousands of years for it to happen but it happened. There was a fear of AI revolution and even in the past of the Dune series this was a thing. The second time around though things got worked out differently to say the least with the AI and Humans reaching an equilibrium.

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/No-ships

 Gamgee wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
An interesting poster suggested that if GW do go with them getting traditional warp drives one possible solution is artificial navigator AI ala Dune series of novels. This is pure speculation however.

There are automated warp navigational systems in 40k lore.

Again exposing an AI to the Warp is risking an Event Horizon style incident.

Are the Tau still relying on Messenger boats for interstellar communication - if so that seems to be being ignored in recent fluff?

Then you've never read Dune series I take it. Navigating in that universe is nearly as dangerous as this one and it was considered impossible for an AI to do it. It took tens of thousands of years for it to happen but it happened. There was a fear of AI revolution and even in the past of the Dune series this was a thing. The second time around though things got worked out differently to say the least with the AI and Humans reaching an equilibrium.

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/No-ships

I haev read the books - prefered the prequals.

As I said - there are already automated naviagtional systems - I have no issue with an AI system doing it.

What I am saying is that the warp is full of powerful entitiesthat want to corrypt or devour you and your soul, AI's included. Was there anything like this in Dune?

Send ships guided by unshielded and unprotected AI's and you will get death, and destruction - if you are lucky.

There weren't anything like that except perhaps other machines out to corrupt other machines.

Well yes that is why they would make a geller field to go with it and what I think they are accidentally making to get past the damocles gulf.

Sigh, Unusual Suspect, I really sighed hard after seeing how much work you had given me.

You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows, and you don't need a shaman or psyker to dissect and reverse-engineer the (completely material-based) Gellar Field generator, nor to replicate the field it can produce. There is no "magic" in the 40k universe, there is merely the Warp - just because it doesn't follow the physical laws of our reality doesn't necessitate it doesn't follow behavioral laws. The Tau aren't terribly experienced in the nuances of the Warp's physical laws, as you might suspect of a race which only encountered such phenomena relatively recently (in the scale of technological development and advancement). ''

You are wrong. Navigation in warp is impossible for a ship without a captain. Navigation in the warp is perilous at best going in blind, without astronomican, now imagine that Tau decides to go full into this realm without anyone guiding the ship. It is a suicide at best. Imperium technology borders among supernatural as all advanced races do. By that, Imperium ships do not work without a psychicly active species. This means that ships navigation system is designed to work in part with magic. You are wrong that there is no magic in w40k. There is a lot of it, entire branches of it dedicated to illogicality, In addition, truly advanced species create impossible constructs. See, Eldar with their bonesingers or Abbadon's planet killer. It is called a techno sorcery and most successful technological achievements are done with merging of the two. See chaos machinery for that matter or any artifacts. They are not technological in nature for the most part.

But lets focus on the real issue. You yourself cannot bring precise information about this issue and how do you expect me to bring quotes about such vague issue we are discussing? W40k lore is very poor then it comes to hard facts, just a general overview and the rest is created by its fans. Here I mean books, games and etc. Some is accepted, some is not.


About Tau and the warp. Can you be a great fellow and bring me name of the campaing where all factions fought in? Where Tau had their secret labaratory to defend. From where and in my general understandment, Tau dislikes irrationality and everything that cannot be scientifically measured. Before Democles Crusade they had issues with warp phenomena, being unable to explain in and now they have same issues. You see, having Imperial warships means nothing. Tau had for ages psychic species in their fold. They had such technology for ages. It was their choice all the time long not to research such technology, calling it foolish and insanely risky. If writers remain true to their original story and do not surrender to short sighted temptation to just give tau whatever, ignoring everything that was established before, Tau will be forever bound to technological level they are now in terms of mobility.

I want your explanation on this. Why Tau ignored this technology for so long then? Means of Imperial travel was theirs for the taking for a very long time, but they refused and I seen in lore, that they do refuse to research the supernatural.

Even if I knew absolutely nothing about the chemical makeup of water, I can still mimic the construction of a canoe I find or steal, and I can still use it to cross bodies of water.

You are wrong. Warp is not a physical thing. It is defiant against any logic and consistency. In truth, navigation in the heart of eye of terror is not based on any sort of coordinates, but rituals. Same as going through the storm, even demons are driven insane by trying to comprehend something that cannot be comprehended. Physical species manage to create some sort of sense only in a very limited degree and only Eldar were capable of manipulating this realm in the past at their height. Even if it was to quite limited degree (see, birth of Slaneesh, web way gates and Eldar incapability to repair them).

This is then we are talking about manipulation of this realm in more advanced forms like Imperial spaceship traveling technology. Tau merely can observe it, but never understand it. To manipulate mind you need a witch mind, not a scientist. In all cases, magic and technology are done in co-collaboration of both, psyker and a engineer.

This is why I do not place great hopes with Tau achieving greater technological advancement. Necron technology is leagues ahead of that Tau possesses and Tau is inferior technologically against high tech of the Imperium to begin with. Heck, they were inferior to Orks too and only now they are closing the gap.

But let's be explicit about the Tau: They have undeniably reverse-engineered the underlying "enter into the Warp" mechanics of some form of Warp Drive. Without navigator guidance and the protections of a gellar field (which was not among the items available to reverse engineer... at least, not until the Tau captured some Imperial Navy assets recently), travel directly through the Warp in a manner similar to the Imperials would be impractical and beyond dangerous.

You see, we do not know if Gellar field is scientific in its nature or not. It deals with magical forces and sometimes it might be enough to create some sort of particle shield around it without full understanding of why warp is being repulsed by it. Judging by Imperial lack of understanding of this technology I would judge that it is far more complex piece of technology than it seems. Tau is similar to Orks. Why demon would want to devour animals? They have no souls or more correctly, their souls are so feeble that it is barely worth it. Try putting Eldar crew in Tau ship and perform FTL. Risk of loosing the ship will become insanely high. gak is like a psyker, if you are even unaware that you have minimal psychic potential then you hardly need to worry about demons and other gak. But if you are an alpha psyker or so, you will actively hurt denizens of the warp. See, Emperor and how he was actively hurting and infuriating the warp to the point it began to conspire against him.

This is the reason of why Tau do not need this field so much. Short jumps combined with net worth of its passangers is just too dim to attract anything. If Tau for example starts including humans into their ships, risks of accidents increases exponentially multiplied with how long your are planning to be in the warp.

Also, while Tau technology is reliable, it is still dependent on the warp. Try jumping then warp storm is raging on and you might materialize in the middle of the planet or in different part of the galaxy. Tau is jumping blind and is only safe because warp is stable in their region and they do such short jumps that current of the warp cannot drag them off the course.

To answer your question directly, you compare the (extremely dependable) average speed for Tau vessels to the (extremely fluctuating) average speed of Imperial Navy vessels.

This was my point exactly. Imperial technology cannot be compared against Tau's. It fluctuates and as distance grows, Imperial gains a immense edge in its mobility, thus here comes my claim that Imperium can travel thousands upon thousands time faster. Given a right conditions for Imperial ship, race between Tau and Imperium across the galaxy would be very one sided duel because one species just enters the warp and gets the feth out as soon as they enter and another can fully navigate this realm. Tau can compare favorably in speed only at the short distances covered. I do not argue against that.

Tau technology is not different, it is just inferior. The immature immitation of more ancient species achievements and it shows at everything. They copy and trade for most stuff and they have this strange technological development where some technology is far more advance then other lags behind a lot.

Another major issue is Tau do not do long jumps as we were talking about. Thus, their routes from system to system is very predictable and they require many stops while Imperial ships just materialize outside your system. This is why Tau is at the mercy of Imperium still. It has all that insane mobility advantage over Tau and if it now would have proper crusade level forces, it could materialize in Tau core worlds and destroy heart of this xeno species before they can disengage from their conflicts and to reinforce home sectors.

Don't get me wrong, the Imperium does have the mobility advantage (with greater risk comes greater speed), but you seem to be heavily overstating that advantage in your attempts to persuade. Hyperbole is not going to help your case here.

My statement here applies to long ranges, not short range jumps. I do not think that it is hyperbole. I do agree that Tau can be measured against Imperium in terms of mobility then short distances are involved, but I'm trying to explain that short and long range jumps are completely different issues and to show you why Imperium technology cannot be compared with Tau method of transportation.

I think you mean "Navigator" and not "Astropath", correct? Astropaths are the Long Distance Telephone of the WH40k.

Yes, sorry. Even though, astropath is just another example of why physical species will never dominate the galaxy. Imagine Imperium run purely on technological methods of communications. Galaxy is simply too vast and it would be impossible to communicate with each another.

The fact of the matter is that no one is arguing that the Tau Warp travel method will ever surpass the raw (average) speed of the Imperium Navy, but the further the Tau perfect their technology (and frankly, that's kind of their theme - adapting and improving technology where damn near everyone else stagnates), the more comparable the speed of the Tau will be to the Imperium (especially in the current and future setting, in which the Warp is a roiling, stormy, dangerous place to travel no matter where you are in the galaxy).

I agree, Tau innovates and creates. This that makes them so dangerous. Even though, Imperium and Chaos did created many technological achievements during 10 thousands years, most spectacular of which are new super-battleship class in a form of planet killer. I'm tired of w40k setting and I would love to see Imperium being dethroned from number 1 race in w50k and chaos taking its place with Abbadon as a new Emperor. This armagedon would force adeptus mechanicus to innovate again, to create. I do not want to see Imperial guard running with railguns, but I do want to see that tech priests working on extremely nasty stuff like vortex weaponary. Figuring out how their machinery works and replicating and improving their most technologically advanced stuff. It would be a nice theme, Tau having well developed technological base, being clearly superior vs Imperium in most devises, but Imperium having high tech such that Tau would have nothing even close to it.

What the Tau currently do better than the Imperium, namely consistent and safe travel (or as close to that as you'll find in WH40k - even the Eldar Webway isn't entirely safe in the 41st millenium), the Tau will continue to maintain through their Warp travel technology.

Well, that is a big and relative thing. As I said, Tau are safe only because of chances and I do suspect that air caste do not accept or try to avoid other species in their ships. This is why they are so safe to begin with. In general, Tau technology tends to be like Germans vs Americans in WW2. Germans being Imperium, they tend to overdo something, trying to push their technology to their limits while Americans being Tau adapt same principles to create something much more modest. Like Panther vs Sherman or in this universe Imperial plasma technology vs Tau plasma technology. While Tau weapons tend not to explode in their faces, they are mere shadows of that Imperial weaponary is capable off.

Probably because your view on the Tau is biased and myopic. You speak of them as "animals" and suggest that the term murder wouldn't apply (when sentience, not a "soul", is the far more common prerequisite for treatment as peoples rather than organic meatbags). If you're looking to persuade, there are far better ways to approach the discussion.

Well, that statement is factually correct, but I'm not speaking about that. I'm speaking about that I'm saying in my other points. I see now that the issue is not in my points, but in lack of dialogue. I mean something else, but you automatically assume the worst due to my general tone before. This is why we have dialogue and this is why questions should be encouraged. I admit that Tau are advancing faster than Imperium. I admit that Imperium is degrading. I admit that Tau had achieved much and should have place in w40k universe, but I also point out to lore issues and little facts that change everything. For example, all this hope and progress tone that Tau has is empty. Why? Hive fleets are coming and Tau high tech army is not suited for war of attrition. If lore is fair, Tau will be nom nom'ed and sorry, but no. Tyranids cannot be fought by biological weapons. Viruses do not work twice on tyranids and you need to acquire unmuttated samples of specific hive fleet engaging you. That is very difficult task to do. Secondly, it will only work on that specific splinter attacking you and the others will shift their genetic make up or even evolve out of their genetic weakness in order not to be destroyed again. Fighting tyranids, you should NEVER use same trick twice and expect it to work and I would love it to see Tau arrogance being brought low as Imperium had been in the past.

The Tau are not completely rational, merely mostly so. They are still subject to emotions (more and more so without Ethereal guidance).

Here I meant irrationality of psyhic species. Religion is only effective and true with beings who can interact with the warp. Tau on the other hand do not have to deal with superstition and similar issues like humanity does.

The Tau probably won't be able to develop Psykers from among their own race, but that's not the end-all be-all of dominance (Recall, if you will, who eventually won the War in Heaven. Hint: They're still around, while the loser went extinct).

Necronthyr was easily defeated by the Old Ones and they had to literally destroy their civilization and who they were in order to win. Necronthyr is no more and necrons are just mere shadow of a species. Entire necron species could be counted in hundreds of thousands now, rest are machines. Something like rubric marines, but their souls being far more feeble due to decaying process of teleportation and repair. This and that C'Tan feasted on their souls in soul furnances at this point, machine spirit is far more of a soul than a necron is.

We KNOW for a fact that the Tau are capable of reverse-engineering Warp technology, as is explicitly demonstrated by their initial reverse-engineering of a Warp Drive and their more recent work (speculated) reverse-engineering of Gellar fields.

You do not understand. Warp based technology does not work without a psyker or magickal forces at work. Imperial travel is completely different technology that Tau has and Tau in principle is unable to reverse-engineer it. Tau merely opens the warp rift, hangs around for a little bit inside and opens portal to realspace. They are like orks, they do not have real understanding of that they are doing or where they are. I was unclear before of that exactly I had meant, sorry.

We KNOW that the Tau have, in various quantities, 3 races within their Empire that have psionic potential: Nicassar (who mostly stay out of combat), the Kroot (who have shamans of their own, and can almost certainly develop greater psychic potential by devouring other psychic races like Orks, Eldar, and Humans), and Humans (who have no compunctions against flinging themselves head first into the crucible of conflict).

Yes, but I was talking about specifically Tau species and not Tau as an alliance. Tau in the past showed reluctance to integrate and to learn from their subjects before and I do think that first we need to resolve this little issue before we can decide how advanced Tau are likely to be in the forseeable future.

Between these three factors, the fact that the Tau race itself has exceedingly limited (but again, not non-existent) psychic potential means very little, so long as the Tau survive long enough to develop potent-enough technology and a large enough population (with a proportionally large enough industry for war) before they are overwhelmed by an undistracted Imperium (exceedingly unlikely, given how beset the Imperium is by all manner of more existential threats), a large enough WAAAAAGH! (a bit more likely, but given how dishonorably-by-Ork-standards the Tau fight, the Orks are more likely to look elsewhere for a fun fight), a sizeable Tyranid threat (even more likely, though even there the Tau have developed some seriously effective anti-tyranid biological weapons), and/or a resurgent Necron Empire (Not sure how likely, given we don't know the extent of Necron colonization in the Tau's small portion of the galaxy).

Orks do not think like that. They tend to look for best foe and Tau is gaining reputation... In addition, War of Dakka is going poorly for the Tau without their legendary commanders. If writers do not derp on the orks and let each race's strengths shine, Tau will be hard countered by Orks due to being dragged to war of attrition. I covered tyranids before and I want only add this about Imperium. First time then Imperium came in force, they underestimated Tau at every opportunity and that had costed them dearly. In addition, they had undid entire spheres worth expansion done before and they struck deep into Tau core territories, drawing strength of entire race to repulse Tau. In the end Imperium was advancing and only heroic and desperate actions of a Tau and some insane luck with assassins (writers derp moment) they had managed to survive and this is only because Imperium was really hard pressed elsewhere that they could just ''meh'' on Tau whole existence to begin with.This was also just a very minor level crusade like forces. Yes, Tau grew in strength since then, but I want to show you larger picture since a lot people here seems not to grasp it.

If you're referring to the C'tan, you're mistaken: they aren't Gods, merely exceedingly powerful beings entirely within material reality. I would need to re-read my Necron books to see how much they've contributed, but the fact remains that all Necron technologies are not warp-based, and they arguably have the most powerful tools available to them of any faction in Warhammer 40k (with or without relying on the Warp for potency and efficacy)

Regarding the hard cap on Tau technological achievement, I'm going to need a citation or explanation for that. The Dark Age of Technology establishes that mere technology can advance in incredible ways to absolutely incredible levels of potency, and I don't see anything restricting Tau from eventually reaching that peak (or beyond), especially given the material reality basis for Necron technological wonders.

Necrons do not have anything about it. Then you read about C'tan, they have references that they had given a lot of technology to them. It also makes sense. Necrothyr was beaten badly due to lack of mobility and they were isolated since ''all live is precious''. But suddenly they got the force to wipe out old ones? It is obvious that C'tan had given many technological marvels in return. Furthermore, necrothyr was incapable of curing themselves and wanted Old ones technology. They were incapable of quick travel through the galaxy. This shows very real hard cap for short lived non psychic races.

Also, we can argue who is the God and how you define it. C'tan are Gods, this is how lore treats them. They did had God like powers, so lets not argue more about it.


About Dark age of Technology. Well, technology tends to stagnate after a while because new tech is so much more complex and difficult. See how quickly Tau advancement slowed down. Dark age of technology was also a relative age. While to us it was a lot, but eldar viewed humanity as a nuisance, crushable at the whim if desired so. In addition, a lot of technology if not all of it is still present in the current day and used. Only means of reproducing and understanding it gone. So, it is still a relative issue and my point still stands.

Tau can, have, and will continue to reverse engineer warp-based technology, and adapt that technology to their needs and capabilities. The Tau Empire includes multiple psionic races under its umbrella, several of whom which could equal or exceed the current psychic potential of the Imperium. Necrontyr and Necron technology is not warp-based, and they are fairly well established as being the most potent force in the WH40k universe (with only a united Ork race, Tyranids, or Eldar at their peak being able to even contend with them on a nearly-equal playing field... and even then, likely failing to match).

Your conclusion is wrong.

1) Tau had showed reluctance to integrate fully their lesser races and to learn from them;
2) I had shown fundamental problems with reverse engineering warp based technologies;
3) There is hard cap on how much short lived species can achieve;




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Addition:
1) Tau shielding seems to be different in kind. You forget that in W40k there are many alternatives and void shielding technology is just one of the many.
2) It is War of Dakka. I do not know if this conflict was resovled yet, but it is alarming issues like these which Tau player base tends to ignore. Being stuck in the war with Orks is bad. Very bad. It is often better even to retreat, let Orks win rather than to be in stalemate.
3) Third, you forget that Tau is not psyhic race and it does not have same issues to deal as Imperium does. Psykers are the greatest boon to the species and the greatest peril. How a species handles their psykers defines how great they will be. This is major issue and threat with the Tau which we need to discuss further. If psykers are left unchecked, Dark age of Technology is guaranteed for the Tau. In fact, only most supersititious and hate filled societies who supressed psykers as ruthlessly as possibly, survived best dark age of technology.
On a side note, insanity, cults and supersitious beliefs are comming from the fact that humans are psychic race. All this division, oppression and heretical threats would not exist if only humans could stay within their physical realm and leave warp to itself. Sadly, it is impossible.

 Ernestas wrote:
Well, every faction which is considered ''good'' is fethed. Imperium itself should by all fairness fall in this black crusade. I hate Tau simply because they have such massive fluff armor that it is hard to believe. Imperium employs 4 assassins? Almost all of them fail, making mockery of their entire reputation! Orks entangling Tau into war of attrition? They will kill off the warboss and they will win the day! Extremely difficult things made easy. Tyranids are coming to nom nom the system? I bet that writers will pull off some bs maneuver that will destroy all of them.

All I want are for those animals (yes, animals. You cannot murder someone who has no real soul thus Tau are at the level of an animal) are some hardship. I want to see their civilization in ruin as humanity had and has to suffer every day. I want every hole in their society to be exploited from rogue psykers taking over planets and sectors to machine uprisings to external threats to which Tau are helpless to respond. W40k universe is not about hope and progress. There is very real dangers with it and Imperium is actually wise in its current politics. I simply want those aliens to taste the fruits of their reckless behavior for once in their life!

Lmao plot armor? really? Have you read ANYTHING from the perspective of the imperium? Space marines alone are the definition of mary sues. Almost everything that GW does that's 40k related is focused on space marines and other imperium forces. Hell look at the lore. Not a single faction has a winning record against the imperium. You have it completely backwards. It's the HUMANS in 40k that get waaaaay too much focus, and waaaaaaaaay too much plot armor. And don't give me that bs that humans MUST be the center of attention. There is so much potential for interesting characters and plots from other races.

I honestly don't get what you are complaingin about here. Everything you are saying can be attributed even more so to the imperium. Really it just seems like you don't like Tau and are trying to justify your hatred by making a mountain out fop nothing. Hell even your theory of them being phased out is ludicrous. Not only did the Tau just get 2 different codexes in the last few years, but tons of new models. They are also way too popular for that.

 Ernestas wrote:
Sigh, Unusual Suspect, I really sighed hard after seeing how much work you had given me.

Fair enough. I, too, have to put in work for these sorts of things, and I'd rather not have to either.

This part of the response was editted in after a night of thinking on this, so I won't get rid of all that I've written, but I'd like to offer an alternative to the walls of text we're making.

Rather than quoting our quotes so we can quote what we've quoted, let's start afresh: If there's something you think we can agree upon (and I think we do, particularly regarding how fragile the Tau Empire's position in the WH40k universe really is, given the magnitude of the threats surrrounding it), make a list of that so we can focus on items where we might disagree.

After that, I'd be glad to discuss our items of disagreement, and where appropriate, our sources for our beliefs regarding which parts of 40k lore strike us as the more "true".

I'm worried, if we do continue the walls of text method, that we'll continue to talk past each other, rather than actually discuss the issues that are actually in contention. Rereading what you've said, and separating your answers from the general tone, I think we're closer than our walls of text seem to let on.

That said, I already wrote my wall of text, and it took a great deal of effort (minus a few errors, which I'm simply unwilling to take the time to fix, as it would require finding the damn things in my own wall of text), so I'll leave it up... But if I get a wall of text in return, I will probably not continue the discussion in that format.

Cheers!

You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows, and you don't need a shaman or psyker to dissect and reverse-engineer the (completely material-based) Gellar Field generator, nor to replicate the field it can produce. There is no "magic" in the 40k universe, there is merely the Warp - just because it doesn't follow the physical laws of our reality doesn't necessitate it doesn't follow behavioral laws. The Tau aren't terribly experienced in the nuances of the Warp's physical laws, as you might suspect of a race which only encountered such phenomena relatively recently (in the scale of technological development and advancement). ''

You are wrong. Navigation in warp is impossible for a ship without a captain. Navigation in the warp is perilous at best going in blind, without astronomican, now imagine that Tau decides to go full into this realm without anyone guiding the ship. It is a suicide at best. Imperium technology borders among supernatural as all advanced races do. By that, Imperium ships do not work without a psychicly active species. This means that ships navigation system is designed to work in part with magic. You are wrong that there is no magic in w40k. There is a lot of it, entire branches of it dedicated to illogicality, In addition, truly advanced species create impossible constructs. See, Eldar with their bonesingers or Abbadon's planet killer. It is called a techno sorcery and most successful technological achievements are done with merging of the two. See chaos machinery for that matter or any artifacts. They are not technological in nature for the most part.

I am not wrong, as far as I know, on what I claimed.

Re: Navigation within the Warp:

I agree that navigating the warp without a way to percieve the warp (that is, "going in blind") would be dangerous beyond all reason. It isn't impossible, mind you, simply mind-bendingly dangerous and insanely unreliable.

The Tau aren't going to be traveling directly through the warp any time soon (and in this, I'm somewhat disagreeing with Gamgee - by the time the Tau can develop their understanding of the violent dimension called the Warp to the point where they can develop AI that can perceive it, they've probably perfected their Warp-skimming technology to the point where the slight increase in comparative speed wouldn't be worth the significantly larger risk and unreliability).

They might luck out with a strain of Kroot who eat enough Navigators, but that would require either a conscious effort of the Tau through bioengineering/cloning/guiding the Kroot's evolutionary process (which the Tau, to my knowledge, have yet to actually try... but which is, incidentally, the basis for a personal project of mine), or a particularly lucky kroot carnivore squad (To say a Navigator is rare is to understate). Kroot would either need to have eaten a couple Houses of Navigators, or have access to cloned Navigator flesh.|

But see above: Why would the Tau bother, when their technology is already far more consistent, far more reliable, and has already demonstrated it can be significantly improved?

Re: Warp technology and psykers.

AFAIK, and as far as the fluff suggests, every technology used by the Imperium that interacts with the warp that I'm aware of (Warp Drives, Gellar Fields, Void Shields) which isn't inextricably linked to a biological psyker (Warp Antenna, Astropathic Chorus Chambers, Force Weapons, etc.) works absolutely fine without having an appreciable psychic presence on board.

Know which faction builds Warp Drives, Gellar Fields, and Void Shields? Adeptus Mechanicus. Know who keeps Warp Drives, Gellar Fields, and Void Shields running? That'd be the Adeptus Mechanicus again. Know which faction is explicitly denied the ability to develop psychic abilities in the vast majority of fluff? Yep, the Adeptus Mechanicus. And hey, know which faction has developed a technological device that grants psionic capabilities when installed? Yeah, the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Imperial Technology that interfaces the warp can absolutely be designed, constructed, and function without the presence or input of a psyker.

Eldar technology is an entirely different story, though a sufficiently-advanced-in-warp-tech Tau society (based even on their current trends/curve, I'm thinking thousands of years minimum) might be able to produce/mold something akin to Wraithbone.

But lets focus on the real issue. You yourself cannot bring precise information about this issue and how do you expect me to bring quotes about such vague issue we are discussing? W40k lore is very poor then it comes to hard facts, just a general overview and the rest is created by its fans. Here I mean books, games and etc. Some is accepted, some is not.

First, the official line from GW roughly translates to "everything is canon, but not everything is true."

Old fluff can sometimes be ret-conned, but unless it is, it is (at the very least) a viewpoint of someone in the WH40k universe.

I'm fairly sure the only thing I asked for you to produce, which you have so far failed to produce, is your citation for Imperial Ship capability of traveling "thousands of times faster" that Tau warp travel (which is an extraordinary claim, and something that needs to have a basis in the fluff to be accepted in an argument like this), and where in the wide, wide Imperium's borders such calm spots in the Warp exist (a similarly extraordinary claim when the base setting suggests warp turmoil is the norm, with warp storms merely turning that up to 11).

If you can't provide a source for either of those claims, then I'm not going to find an argument based on those claims persuasive.

About Tau and the warp. Can you be a great fellow and bring me name of the campaing where all factions fought in? Where Tau had their secret labaratory to defend. From where and in my general understandment, Tau dislikes irrationality and everything that cannot be scientifically measured. Before Democles Crusade they had issues with warp phenomena, being unable to explain in and now they have same issues. You see, having Imperial warships means nothing. Tau had for ages psychic species in their fold. They had such technology for ages. It was their choice all the time long not to research such technology, calling it foolish and insanely risky. If writers remain true to their original story and do not surrender to short sighted temptation to just give tau whatever, ignoring everything that was established before, Tau will be forever bound to technological level they are now in terms of mobility.

I want your explanation on this. Why Tau ignored this technology for so long then? Means of Imperial travel was theirs for the taking for a very long time, but they refused and I seen in lore, that they do refuse to research the supernatural.

Don't have the time or energy to deal with the whole thing, I'm just going to write aobut particular things I have issues.

 Ernestas wrote:
This is the reason of why Tau do not need this field so much. Short jumps combined with net worth of its passangers is just too dim to attract anything. If Tau for example starts including humans into their ships, risks of accidents increases exponentially multiplied with how long your are planning to be in the warp.

AFAIK, it's the fact that they don't do a full submersion that makes it safe. Nothing to do with the passangers

Also, while Tau technology is reliable, it is still dependent on the warp. Try jumping then warp storm is raging on and you might materialize in the middle of the planet or in different part of the galaxy. Tau is jumping blind and is only safe because warp is stable in their region and they do such short jumps that current of the warp cannot drag them off the course.

Source?

This was my point exactly. Imperial technology cannot be compared against Tau's. It fluctuates and as distance grows, Imperial gains a immense edge in its mobility, thus here comes my claim that Imperium can travel thousands upon thousands time faster.

Source? Because it is explicitly stated that tau's is 1/5 the speed, and then advancment in speed are talked about in later books.




Tau technology is not different, it is just inferior. The immature immitation of more ancient species achievements and it shows at everything. They copy and trade for most stuff and they have this strange technological development where some technology is far more advance then other lags behind a lot.

Another major issue is Tau do not do long jumps as we were talking about. Thus, their routes from system to system is very predictable and they require many stops while Imperial ships just materialize outside your system. This is why Tau is at the mercy of Imperium still. It has all that insane mobility advantage over Tau and if it now would have proper crusade level forces, it could materialize in Tau core worlds and destroy heart of this xeno species before they can disengage from their conflicts and to reinforce home sectors.

Source?

My statement here applies to long ranges, not short range jumps. I do not think that it is hyperbole. I do agree that Tau can be measured against Imperium in terms of mobility then short distances are involved, but I'm trying to explain that short and long range jumps are completely different issues and to show you why Imperium technology cannot be compared with Tau method of transportation.

There's a theme here but, source?

Well, that is a big and relative thing. As I said, Tau are safe only because of chances and I do suspect that air caste do not accept or try to avoid other species in their ships. This is why they are so safe to begin with.

There is literally nothing to suggest that. That would also require a level of warp knowledge that you before suggested was impossible.

In general, Tau technology tends to be like Germans vs Americans in WW2. Germans being Imperium, they tend to overdo something, trying to push their technology to their limits while Americans being Tau adapt same principles to create something much more modest.

It's actually a pretty apt comparison. Germany focused on massive, over-engineered monstrosities, but suffered on the most basic of things, like infantry equipment, transportation, and communications. And their eventual super-weapons were riddled with problems The '"mighty" panther broke down commonly, especially with it's transmission (even down shifting while moving backwards could feth it up, and it could actually catch fire). It's front armour was thick, but it's side armour was thin enough to be pierced by anti-tank rifles at medium range. And that front armour wasn't even that strong for it's thickness, brittle and not at strong as most American steel. It was far too heavy, and had severe mobility problems, especialy in mud. It was a 45-ton tank, and you are comparing to the Sherman, 35-tonner. The 45-ton tanks of the allies, the IS-2 and the M26 Pershing had far superior armour. The gun and sights on the Panther was excellent, but the whole gunner's position was so horrible laid out it removed any advantage. Tau would go for something more like the T-34 or the Sherman. Not as impressive, but cheaper, and better in almost every way.

Like Panther vs Sherman or in this universe Imperial plasma technology vs Tau plasma technology. While Tau weapons tend not to explode in their faces, they are mere shadows of that Imperial weaponary is capable off.

Tau plasma weaponry loses a small amount of stopping power. The exact quote is "loses a degree of stopping power". It's still enough for plasma rifles to leave SMs with gaping holes strait through them.

1) Tau had showed reluctance to integrate fully their lesser races and to learn from them;

The existance of intagrated Demiug Nicassar, Kroot, and humans, as well as things like ion technology (converted from Demiurg mining tech), prove that wrong

3) There is hard cap on how much short lived species can achieve;

First, the "shot-lived" tau seem to live to at least 80 even when crippled in battle. And are supposed to both mature faster and stay in their prime far longer.
Second, what? Their achivement's are the combined achivment's of all their members. You don't need to live to 150 to achieve great things.

1) Tau shielding seems to be different in kind. You forget that in W40k there are many alternatives and void shielding technology is just one of the many.

Quite true. While the imperium relies heavily on warp based shielding, the tau have shileds which act more as armour, deflecting (and sometimes just stopping) projectiles and energy.

2) It is War of Dakka. I do not know if this conflict was resovled yet, but it is alarming issues like these which Tau player base tends to ignore. Being stuck in the war with Orks is bad. Very bad. It is often better even to retreat, let Orks win rather than to be in stalemate.

The Empire has been at war with the Orks, on and off, since it's beginning. They survied Great War of Confederation and Hive fleet Gorgon. This will be no different.

3) Third, you forget that Tau is not psyhic race and it does not have same issues to deal as Imperium does. Psykers are the greatest boon to the species and the greatest peril. How a species handles their psykers defines how great they will be. This is major issue and threat with the Tau which we need to discuss further. If psykers are left unchecked, Dark age of Technology is guaranteed for the Tau. In fact, only most supersititious and hate filled societies who supressed psykers as ruthlessly as possibly, survived best dark age of technology.

And considering that the tau have both witnessed psykers first hand, Farsight's story hinted that the etherals know a great deal about the warp, and in many cases the tau have annexed planets by getting the planetary governor to join them, they'll know the general idea of what to do. And I don't see how a them having a dark age of technology is a a bad thing, considering it's when the humans race flourished technologically and first claimed the galaxy.
It's only the ending that was bad.

I will have time during weekend.

My main argument is this:

Tau warp drive cannot be compared directly.

Why:

1) It is functionally completely different. Warp is like ocean with its currents, storms and everything. You can be accelerated or flung outside known galaxy as some chapters were recorded to. Tau on the other hand gets the feth out of this realm as soon as they are in. They are not researching same technology as Imperials have or they do not want to as I had seen it in the lore before.
2) Given strengths of both methods are fundamentally different. Tau being reliable method and comparable in short distances. However, without full submersion you cannot enjoy full bonus in the warp. Tau cannot be in the warp longer than very short period of time. This forces ship to constantly adjust its travel in realspace. It is like having a racing car with which you want to maintain maximum speed, but you have to fully stop it and to readjust direction in which you are going since you have no control of the car then it starts moving. In a short distance both cars are equally fast, but try racing with Tau car across USA. In the long run, mobility advantage multiplies since Imperial car maintains its maximum speed all the time while Tau spends most of its time in sub-optimal speeds of acceleration, deseleration and course readjustment.

This is the main problem which you had to prove me. How fundamentally Tau can ever achieve superiority or equal mobility using this and modified version of this technology?
Using your real engines are pointless since movement generated in real space are pathetic in comparison. Short warp jumps are fundamentally unable to enjoy full speed given by constant staying in the warp. In addition, you do not fly in the warp by using some arcance technology. You travel it by your engines so essentially the speed will be tied to engines which cannot push ship faster than a speed of light, multiplied by time spent and multiplied again by warp currents. You see where I'm heading? Tau will not achieve that much superior engines ever and main advantage in speed comes from being in the warp long ass time and that is being multiplied then by navigator who can see currents in the warp and fly with them. Tau on the other hand do not care and they often get a negative multiplier.

3) Tau technology is not technology at all, but is rather an outcome of technological immaturity and lack of shamans. Heading says it all, Tau did not invented new way of travel. Who stops navigator from constantly dragging ship in and out of the warp? In fact, navigators could force ship any time of the warp on their whim, but doing so is foolish. On the other hand, Tau cannot have anything different. This is why I say that it is not unique way of traveling at all. It is merely a race playing with the forces which it cannot comprehend. It just copied this technology, but lacks fundamental mindset and capabilities to operate;

Also, I'm totally with you on the ineffectiveness of the Assassins, though I did find the Vindicare's failure at least plausible. Chalk that up to poor GW choices and the Imperium's relative lack of knowledge on intricacies of the Tau - The Callidus can't replicate what it doesn't know to replicate. The Eversor also didn't explode, so GW just dropped the ball on that one. The Vindicare nearly succeeded, but the selflessness of Farsight's bodyguards (a few of which seem to have died in the process) was at least a plausible reason for preventing the final shot.

I was not as unhappy with the Assassins - they walked through the Tau and it was only when they had to try and take out the named characters that they had issues - as they always do.

I loved the Vindicare killing everything from Riptdies to Pathfinder Squads with consummate ease and a bodyguard sacrificing them self to deflect the kill shot was in keeping - similar thing happens with the Callidus. The Culixous just becomes walking death to the Tau and achieves its mission.

IIRC the Eversor did explode and took the dome with it.

Well, I will not respect them until they start taking major fluff characters out of the lore. Now looking through their track records, they are really good at killing other humans like governors, but then it comes to killing off their competition...well, it aint pretty even with whole kill squads. Like with black pariah or their attempts against Chaos agents.

Simply put, why they are so much better than lictors of tyranids, assassins sent from chaos, eldar and dark eldar agents, necron assassins? Imperial assassins in my eyes do not deserve reputation which is put upon them. Then they will start banishing greater demons, chaos lords and stopping Whaaagghhs in their tracks then I will start respecting them. This is an actual problem with a story telling. Writers think that they cannot build up a bad guy and then let it be killed in cold and brutal fashion by an assassin. It always must be helmless melee combat by faction leaders.


Btw: Maybe for once you should let swarmlord to appear on the battlefield and being killed over and over again by the assassin? You know, it is difficult to miss it. Big ass bug with preference of charging right into thick of the battle.