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I think they need to take super heavy walkers outta normal games.

Or make it so one unit can not take up more then 25% of your army total cost.

Though I started 40k with hor killteam, I much prefer larger games, 1850 and above, 1500 is getting a little too small for me.
The fluff of 40k is epic big battles, where "armies" clash. If we decide it's more skirmish based then 40k just gets lost in all the other skirmish wargames that flood the market.
Now with the current rules, large game like I prefer just become to slow to reliably play on busy schedules.
So best way to do this I believe is to have 2 separate games. The small killteam to 1500ish and then the 2000 to greater epic. The epic needs rules that are streamlined for faster games and the killteam needs more complex rules to have detail in the combat.

WhIle I'm not sure if I want to go to the old "epic" scale, I've collected enough minis to not want to re buy everything, so a way to incorporate epic with the current model size would be what I prefer.

The main reason I haven't left 40k yet and got into the variety of other Wargames is because those are all mostly skirmish based, there are very few large epic sized ones out there. So I stay, my hope is that 8th ed makes the game more streamlined to allow bigger games. When I bring my orks I want to feel justified in yelling Waaagh with hundreds of greenskinz running at the foe, I barely feel the urge when I have 30 boys.

1/1 scale is best scale anything else is weaksauce

all you have to do is put restrictions. like 50% of your army has to be in a CAD, or no more than 25% of your army can be in lords of war.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
all you have to do is put restrictions. like 50% of your army has to be in a CAD, or no more than 25% of your army can be in lords of war.

40k has a scale problem.

One one hand there are these epic battles in fluff.

but 28mm on a 6x4 table is sipmly not enough room , physicaly.

in 28mm it would be better if we keep the current army sizes model wise and enlarge the table to something like 12x8 . ( and adjust movement ranges)

28mm is much better for Skrimish or Mass Skrimish Systems. Simply becaue of physical limits regarding playing a huge enough table.

So 40k as a game would work much better in a smaller scale.. 6-10mm. there we could have epic battles.
But then... the rules schould take care of that as well. Rules that focus on single models in a unit are garbage for a mass game. it becomes tedious and time consuming.
There is a reason oSkrimish games shine when it omes to iindividual model usage and rules.

Something I have learned from AoS is it's not the points limit, but the amount of models that matters. And because of that some armies scale up to larger points well and others are best kept at the lower points levels.

Once a horde army reaches so many models it becomes a problem to transport the army to and from games and to complete the game in a timely manner. You might never finish a game down your club, and tournaments become a no-no too because you can't finish in the 2.5 hours you are given for a game.

Furthermore with a horde army you might get no benefit going to the larger points levels. For example if your 2000 point army was just all the same elements as your 1000 point army but doubled in size/number - does it make for a different gaming experience really?

So, with me looking to get back into 40k with the Genestealer Cult and the new edition looming I didn't decide on how many points I wanted to play , I instead decided what looks to be a good sized Genestealer Cult army in terms of models. And for me that is Deathwatch Overkill + a box of Neophytes + 2 boxes of Genestealers + 2 Goliaths. Apparently that's only a 1000 pointish force (correct me if I am wrong) but that's what I am going to stick with.

Yeah, the problem with the game growing in model and size is the table hasn't.

Another reason I'm in favor of scaling the game down is so that it grows the community and even things out between the players who just started and the guys with fat wallets who have access to everything they want.

As more comments have rolled in, I'd like to add...

I don't like 40K games above 1250 points. I find that the game starts to break down and the time it takes to complete a game goes from "a reasonable diversion" to "the whole damn afternoon". Honestly, I'd like the game to be fast enough that it isn't a drain to set up and do two games in a row, with naught but a bathroom break between games.

At the same time, I love my vehicles. I'd kinda like 40K to have a mode like Bolt Action's Tank War, where you can run a bunch of 28mm vehicles against each other without it getting bogged down by worthless blobs of troops who can't do more than scratch the paint on your vehicles and gotta wait for their battle taxis to get them around town.

Sort of like Stormcloud Attack, but for Tanks, Walkers and Superheavies. The groundpounders can sit it out.

 Stormonu wrote:
As more comments have rolled in, I'd like to add...

I don't like 40K games above 1250 points. I find that the game starts to break down and the time it takes to complete a game goes from "a reasonable diversion" to "the whole damn afternoon". Honestly, I'd like the game to be fast enough that it isn't a drain to set up and do two games in a row, with naught but a bathroom break between games.

At the same time, I love my vehicles. I'd kinda like 40K to have a mode like Bolt Action's Tank War, where you can run a bunch of 28mm vehicles against each other without it getting bogged down by worthless blobs of troops who can't do more than scratch the paint on your vehicles and gotta wait for their battle taxis to get them around town.

Sort of like Stormcloud Attack, but for Tanks, Walkers and Superheavies. The groundpounders can sit it out.

Except in Bolt Action even unequipped Infantry can (if you are very lucky and have enough) damage a tank by swarming it, and if a good sizeable unit has AT grenades they can be a massive threat to an immobile or camping tank. If your opponent has open topped vehicles they will also suffer, as any infantry whom successfully assault it will destroy the vehicle.

There are potentially two different questions being asked here: what size armies do you think we should be playing 40k with now (or with rules not much different from now), and what size armies should 40k be written for?

I don't think games above about 1350-1500 points work well in 40k now. The game engine, so to speak, is archaic, and the mess of special rules and fiddly interactions bog the game down when you have too many models on the board.

But I also think playing with larger armies is fun as a concept, if you've already shelled out a fortune for the models.

Other people have mentioned it, but 40k pretty clearly needs three separate rulesets:

- a proper squad size skirmish game, where the armament of indivudual models matters and things like throwing grenades is accounted for

- a skirmish/battle game mostly focused on infantry with some vehicle support, where there is still some detail in the rules. Think cleaner and more modern than 7th edition, more limited in scope, but retaining some of the nitty gritty we associate with 40k.

- a mass battle game closer to Epic: Armageddon, where the rules are focused on units rather than models wherever possible. This is where you can have your 150+ model per side games with flyers and superheavies

The advantage of clearly separating things this way is playability. Your skirmish game gets down in the weeds with less than 20 models or so, only light vehicles and walkers, and detailed rules for model on model interaction, but it doesn't take forever to play. Your intermediate game scale (40k proper) can stay around a 2nd edition model count and keep an appropriate level of detail to keep the game fast and fun. And your clash of armies scale provides a reasonable way to play with all your big toys, or with a horde, without bogging down in minutiae like 40k does now.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Except in Bolt Action even unequipped Infantry can (if you are very lucky and have enough) damage a tank by swarming it, and if a good sizeable unit has AT grenades they can be a massive threat to an immobile or camping tank. If your opponent has open topped vehicles they will also suffer, as any infantry whom successfully assault it will destroy the vehicle.

True, the main thing is I'd like a version - like the Battlefront/Gale Force 9 "Tanks" game (but with 28mm scale models, as if using Warlord's Tank War game) that dispensed with the infantry and was just vehicle vs. vehicle combat. Something along the lines of the Knight Renegade (which is pretty much Knights only) or Stormcloud Attack game (which is flyers only) - the main thing being a ruleset better suited to that sort of action than the "everything and the kitchen sink" rules of 40K.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
There are potentially two different questions being asked here: what size armies do you think we should be playing 40k with now (or with rules not much different from now), and what size armies should 40k be written for?

I don't think games above about 1350-1500 points work well in 40k now. The game engine, so to speak, is archaic, and the mess of special rules and fiddly interactions bog the game down when you have too many models on the board.

But I also think playing with larger armies is fun as a concept, if you've already shelled out a fortune for the models.

Other people have mentioned it, but 40k pretty clearly needs three separate rulesets:

- a proper squad size skirmish game, where the armament of indivudual models matters and things like throwing grenades is accounted for

- a skirmish/battle game mostly focused on infantry with some vehicle support, where there is still some detail in the rules. Think cleaner and more modern than 7th edition, more limited in scope, but retaining some of the nitty gritty we associate with 40k.

- a mass battle game closer to Epic: Armageddon, where the rules are focused on units rather than models wherever possible. This is where you can have your 150+ model per side games with flyers and superheavies

The advantage of clearly separating things this way is playability. Your skirmish game gets down in the weeds with less than 20 models or so, only light vehicles and walkers, and detailed rules for model on model interaction, but it doesn't take forever to play. Your intermediate game scale (40k proper) can stay around a 2nd edition model count and keep an appropriate level of detail to keep the game fast and fun. And your clash of armies scale provides a reasonable way to play with all your big toys, or with a horde, without bogging down in minutiae like 40k does now.

I like this. Technically we have kill teams/DarkHeresy for small battles and the core 40k rules for mid sized battles, but the problem is we use those same mid sized rules for a larger game which is too slow for its design.

 NInjatactiks wrote:

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
There are potentially two different questions being asked here: what size armies do you think we should be playing 40k with now (or with rules not much different from now), and what size armies should 40k be written for?

I don't think games above about 1350-1500 points work well in 40k now. The game engine, so to speak, is archaic, and the mess of special rules and fiddly interactions bog the game down when you have too many models on the board.

But I also think playing with larger armies is fun as a concept, if you've already shelled out a fortune for the models.

Other people have mentioned it, but 40k pretty clearly needs three separate rulesets:

- a proper squad size skirmish game, where the armament of indivudual models matters and things like throwing grenades is accounted for

- a skirmish/battle game mostly focused on infantry with some vehicle support, where there is still some detail in the rules. Think cleaner and more modern than 7th edition, more limited in scope, but retaining some of the nitty gritty we associate with 40k.

- a mass battle game closer to Epic: Armageddon, where the rules are focused on units rather than models wherever possible. This is where you can have your 150+ model per side games with flyers and superheavies

The advantage of clearly separating things this way is playability. Your skirmish game gets down in the weeds with less than 20 models or so, only light vehicles and walkers, and detailed rules for model on model interaction, but it doesn't take forever to play. Your intermediate game scale (40k proper) can stay around a 2nd edition model count and keep an appropriate level of detail to keep the game fast and fun. And your clash of armies scale provides a reasonable way to play with all your big toys, or with a horde, without bogging down in minutiae like 40k does now.

I like this. Technically we have kill teams/DarkHeresy for small battles and the core 40k rules for mid sized battles, but the problem is we use those same mid sized rules for a larger game which is too slow for its design.

Agreed, but I also fell that kill team is a terrible system for skirmish game. As of now, 40k definitively needs to scale down a bit. Units of 30+ (in the case of orks, nyds and guards) are a bit too much. It should top at 20 models per units max. Also, as most already said, flyers and titans shouldn't be used in standard games, unless it's a special scenario.

Mr. CyberPunk wrote:


Agreed, but I also fell that kill team is a terrible system for skirmish game. As of now, 40k definitively needs to scale down a bit. Units of 30+ (in the case of orks, nyds and guards) are a bit too much. It should top at 20 models per units max. Also, as most already said, flyers and titans shouldn't be used in standard games, unless it's a special scenario.

What about HoR Kill Team though?

Kill Team is about the scale I find most appealing. It's where a half dozen heroic space marines face down a couple dozen orks. In general I've always been drawn to the small scope bits of the fluff like the Space Marine game or Dawn of War 2 over the original.

That said, I like the appeal of the bigger game, I've just never loved the implementation. Seas of space marines lose a lot of their core appeal, both visually and the way their rules have to be watered down as they become a horde. I think if the Imperium was more integrated and served as elite options in armies where the Imperial guard was your troop level stuff, I'd be a lot more drawn to the larger scale game. Obviously, this can be done with allies and all that, but its not the same as the army really being designed that way.