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Mr ghoti wrote:
I'm playing g it this way. When you work it like this, thousand sons psychic phase becomes an unstoppable rolling stone. In the beginning turns Ahriman and Magnus can cast siphon, then local sarges cast force to buff their units, siphoning to the big guys. Exalteds cast their powers siphoning to the big guys. Bug guys cast for free or bank them for later.

Next turns regular sarges have more dice to cast their own powers, exalted have extra dice, and big guys can basically cast for free.

what gives you permission to use the dice?

"Any dice accrued in this manner can be used by the Psyker as bonus Warp Charge points."

The blessing is 2 parts. The first part is an effect that ends at the end of the phase. The other gives the psyker dice that can be used AS warp charge points. It does not say that they ARE warp charge points added to the warp charge pool, but can only be used by the psyker. (In the way that Spirit Leech works for tyranids) These are physical dice that may be cashed in for warp charge points later. And since they are not in the warp charge pool, they do not get discarded at the end of the phase.

yeah sure but the blessing will be gone by your next psychic phase.

EDIT: which means at best you have the dice market next to your model but no permission/rule on what tp do with them.

And casting it again doesn't give you any rules about using the old dice.

You have already been given permission to use the dice as warp charge. The permission to accrue these dice is gone at the end of your psychic phase. The permission to use them has no stated time constraints.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
You have already been given permission to use the dice as warp charge. The permission to accrue these dice is gone at the end of your psychic phase. The permission to use them has no stated time constraints.

Besides the fact that blessings last until your next psychic phase and the words allowing you to use the dice are part of the blessing's wording. You would need explicit permission to use them after the blessing has ended, otherwise it follows the rules of blessings in general, that their effects end.

Jacksmiles wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
You have already been given permission to use the dice as warp charge. The permission to accrue these dice is gone at the end of your psychic phase. The permission to use them has no stated time constraints.

Besides the fact that blessings last until your next psychic phase and the words allowing you to use the dice are part of the blessing's wording. You would need explicit permission to use them after the blessing has ended, otherwise it follows the rules of blessings in general, that their effects end.

So models that use gate of infinity must return to their initial placement at the start of the next psychic phase?

Models gaining wounds from life leech must lose them at the start of the next psychic phase?

AncientSkarbrand wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
You have already been given permission to use the dice as warp charge. The permission to accrue these dice is gone at the end of your psychic phase. The permission to use them has no stated time constraints.

Besides the fact that blessings last until your next psychic phase and the words allowing you to use the dice are part of the blessing's wording. You would need explicit permission to use them after the blessing has ended, otherwise it follows the rules of blessings in general, that their effects end.

So models that use gate of infinity must return to their initial placement at the start of the next psychic phase?

Models gaining wounds from life leech must lose them at the start of the next psychic phase?

I never noticed that Life Leech is a blessing, nor that the deep strike wasn't the immediate effect of Gate of Infinity much like the adding the dice pool is in this power. You've opened my eyes.

Life Leech is a Witchfire with a secondary effect.

But let's also take Boon of Mutation into account. It's a Blessing. It does a S4 hit to a model. That model gets a Chaos Boon. Does the S4 hit undo itself next turn? Does the Blessing? What happens if the model turns into a Spawn? Does it un-turn itself?

How about Magnetokinesis, a Blessing that moves a unit up to 18"? Do they Magneto back to their starting position?

Yeah, good point, life leech isn't a blessing. Sorry about that. No need to be snarky though..

However, adding dice is not what is being debated here. The ability to use them as warp charge is. It's somewhat analogous to gate where adding dice ends and the ability to deep strike ends, and the ability to remain in your new position continues while the ability to keep and use the added dice continues.

Boon of mutation and magnetokinesis are other good examples.

The move won't be undone, nor will the S4 hit. The ability that caused the move or the ability that caused the hit will end though.

In effect, the Blessing has the effect of causing an action to occur at a specific time. The time that it occurs in all the examples given so far is "instantaneous" in that it occurs right away. The action then proceeds, and that action's effects play out. So in the case of Chaos Boon, the Blessing causes an immediate action of suffering a S4 hit that, should the target survive, grants a roll on the Chaos Boon table. In theory, the power that caused the action remains in effect until the start of the controlling player's next psychic phase, but it simply isn't causing any additional actions.

Let's contrast this to another power that remains in effect. Let's say Iron Arm. Iron Army says that you get +3 Strength an +3 Toughness whilst the power is in effect. The power has the immediate effect of saying that, while the power is active, you get +3 Strength and +3 Toughness. However, this never causes an action to occur, unlike Chaos Boon, Gate of Infinity, or Magnetokinesis.

So, the main question is then, is the ability to use the die an ability granted by the die, or an ability granted by the power? Personally, since it doesn't specify otherwise, I would side on the ability being granted by the power.

Best analogy I can make is for Magic where you can put counters on cards. Look at the card Makeshift Mannequin:
( http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=220569 )

This card give a Mannequin Counter to something, but the counter doesn't have the ability (the one where if the creature it's on becomes targeted, the creature is sacrificed). Rather, that's an ability granted the creature it's put on. If something happened in the game that moved that counter to another creature, the new creature doesn't suffer the ability of the counter. This is because it's the creature that had the ability, not the counter.

I view this similarly. It's not the die giving the ability to spend it, it's the power. When that power ends, your ability to spend that die also ends.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
You have already been given permission to use the dice as warp charge. The permission to accrue these dice is gone at the end of your psychic phase. The permission to use them has no stated time constraints.

However, even if you accept that, you couldn't use them in a turn where you cast Siphon Magic again. Powers aren't allowed to stack, so either you can't cast the power in the first place while you still have the dice around, or when you cast the power again you only have permission for using any new dice you gain that turn - since you can't stack you wouldn't have permission to use the previous set of dice at the same time as you do the new set of dice.

I'd still say the dice goes away at the end of the turn when you refresh; you're talking about dice, but the rulebook also refers to the warp charge as dice, so anything clearing out the warp charge pool would be clearing out the dice.

 doctortom wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
You have already been given permission to use the dice as warp charge. The permission to accrue these dice is gone at the end of your psychic phase. The permission to use them has no stated time constraints.

However, even if you accept that, you couldn't use them in a turn where you cast Siphon Magic again. Powers aren't allowed to stack, so either you can't cast the power in the first place while you still have the dice around, or when you cast the power again you only have permission for using any new dice you gain that turn - since you can't stack you wouldn't have permission to use the previous set of dice at the same time as you do the new set of dice.

I'd still say the dice goes away at the end of the turn when you refresh; you're talking about dice, but the rulebook also refers to the warp charge as dice, so anything clearing out the warp charge pool would be clearing out the dice.

I think everyone knows how it's supposed to work and we're just arguing raw.

I don't see how people can argue siphon stays perpetually. best you could argue is keep the dice in your opponents next turn to use for deny the witch

But I can't imagine anyone I know wants to play it this way.

I think the issue I have found is that it makes sense for you to be able to store the dice. At least for the ML1 psykers. Who roll what is a 100% useless power as they can't cast more than one spell. And have to roll on that table because of the mark.

So from a design perspective it just doesn't make sense to me that they would create it so that it could have no possible use. But if it carries over then that ML1 psyker will have some contribution in the next psy phase. Assuming he survived because the dice are tied to him. Which creates agency and more game play decisions because your opponent killing that model not only denies you his ML it also eliminates the buffering he has done.

But then you have it on an ML3 character and if it carries over it gets slightly more silly. But I still wouldn't say breaking the psy phase in any way.

Thread necromancy aside, I'd like to say that this is how I believe it works:

It's a blessing, so ANY affects or permissions it gives us end at the start of your next Psychic Phase. So acquiring dice and the permission to USE those dice ceases.

However, I do not see a reason why the non-Warp Charge dice "markers" would go away until the Psyker uses them (as Warp Charge).
So you could store the dice, but you'd have to cast Siphon Magic again in order to use them over multiple turns.

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