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A long cloak stitched with interlocking teeth of dostoy primes chameleonic hyrdasharks.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I've played the warband + lotd AL. Was a small 1k pt game but still managed to fit everything in. Double respawning cultists are quite good. Oh, and i got the cult leader warlord trait - furious charge and 6+++ for cultists within 12" of the warlord. So, yeah.

Unfortunately, the full infiltrate didn't work out as good as i thought it would cause it was basically a +6" deployment for just marines and cultists. It's gona work great as a cultist star though. The one with sorcabal for invis and 1-st turn charge, Kharn and now the mindveil apostle to spice things up.

I'm still gona add the AL latd to world eater's warband with 2d6 movement. Though cultists only get one respawn in Lotd, they still have infiltrate to screen up the advancing eaters against counter-charges and the mindveil relic could be great for a mini kharn-star. Will see tomorrow.

That seems kind of pointless to be honest. You will only end up infiltrating 6" ahead as you said earlier (18" away form enemies and all) and that's the front of the units meaning your tail could extend beyond the 1" base size, that basically log jams the free 2d6 move from the berzerkers to at best 5" after you account for the cultists base as I said, that's if they are one think row. That will be an easy screen to charge through or just shoot past. Cultists are not that cheap not with an apostle forced on you to boot, not when every point in that WE detachment is so important. I also feel the mindveil is being misused in a WE detachment, if your in assault your happy, not many scenarios in 7th you will use that as a WE. Your gona want to hide in assault which will already be an issue since you'll probably kill what ever you engage in a turn. Granted you can recharge but anything that survived two rounds is probably something you won't want to recharge.

There's generally still place. Also, could outflank some of the cultists when needed. And they help to mitigate the further deployment a bit.

While everybody is getting so worked up about Cultists I've been looking at other Auxiliary options. The Terminator Annihilation Force in particular seems great with the new Mind Veil relic. Packing a Sorcerer in that formation and attaching him to a squad of Termies will give insane mobility in the turns after deep striking. This combined with the formation's free shooting attack after DS and the cheap Combi-Weapons that Chaos termies get can add a lot to the already plentiful Plasma or Melta spam from infiltrating/outflanking Chosen squads. Hatred is pretty nice too against Xenos armies that VotLW don't already let you hate.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Perth wrote:
Something that caught my attention when looking at our armour relic, are there even any AP2 flame weapons (as defined by the rulebook) in the game?

The only thing I can think of is the SM warlord trait giving Rending to a squad with a flamer in it.

Necrons have the Gauntlet of the Conflagrator.

Which is not a flamer. None of the flamer weapons have sufficient Ap to matter. Only really wierd cases could even trigger it.

I sold my Necron codex, but IIRC, the Gauntlet of Fire is a Flamer "as described on the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook", and the Conflagrator is otherwise treated as a one-shot Gauntlet of Fire.

So, can we put the Drakscale Plate one a Daemon Prince? Wouldn't a 2+ DP be kind of cool?

Edit: And if it is a Daemon of Tzeentch it gets re rolls on saves of 1.

Can Cypher be taken in an Alpha Legion list? Seems like Infiltrate is kind of his thing, so it could be good?

it would be pointless tho. i mean the army already has infiltrate why take cypher?

I don't mean take his formation, I mean just take him. He doesn't confer Infiltrate to his unit, but since he already has it, he could infiltrate with a squad of AL Chosen or something. I'm not sure it would actually be that great, but I was just throwing it out there as a possibility.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I don't mean take his formation, I mean just take him. He doesn't confer Infiltrate to his unit, but since he already has it, he could infiltrate with a squad of AL Chosen or something. I'm not sure it would actually be that great, but I was just throwing it out there as a possibility.

That would actually work quite well since the champion could challenge block, and Cypher then gets 18 meatshields from which to dole out plasma all the day long.

Can't take Cypher in an AL list - no unique units allowed.

I'm interested in how a Warpsmith might perform when given the Mindveil. You could spread out the units from the Fist of The Gods formation and have your Warpsmith jump around the battlefield to be where he needs to be for repairs. With his in-built melta and flamer, and the huge number of attacks he has you can essentially use him as your sweeper unit, being where he needs to be any given turn to add a little extra firepower or to shore up a vulnerability in your lines. The Warpsmith looks like the ultimate versatile/support unit. This artifact should allow him to be everywhere at once, fixing whatever needs fixing.

I haven't got the book yet so I haven't read the fineprint of the Mindveil but does it count your unit as moving when you use it? Because one of the first thought that came to mind with using it would be to stick one of your mandatory HQ's in a Havoc squad and have it jump around the board laying down fire on whatever needs blasting that turn. Teleporting a heavy weapon squad around each turn seems like an excellent way to bypass their otherwise static placement.

It replaces your move,so yeah counts as moving.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cypher can be in his own detachment, so doesn't have to be AL, but he comes with... Infiltrating chosen... So not worth it..

I just noticed the FAQ stating IC's without infiltrate can't infiltrate with units

Ramzin wrote:
So, can we put the Drakscale Plate one a Daemon Prince? Wouldn't a 2+ DP be kind of cool?

Edit: And if it is a Daemon of Tzeentch it gets re rolls on saves of 1.

There's no reason why not- it's what I'm planning to do. 2+ re-rollable armour save and a 2+ re-rollable cover save on T1 is awesome!

Captyn_Bob wrote:
It replaces your move,so yeah counts as moving.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cypher can be in his own detachment, so doesn't have to be AL, but he comes with... Infiltrating chosen... So not worth it..

The difference with the Chosen is that they have ATSKNF instead of the now default LD10. It isn't the worst way to get Chosen if you absolutely want Cypher, who in the end is still pretty killer himself.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Either a rerollable, or two separate triggers of the instance. Potentially getting 2 squads for every one that dies.

It's vague.

They are separate rules so they should stack, like stealth and shrouded.

Err... infiltrating troops is cool... but now our IC's can't join them during deployment. No lords or sorcerers joining chaos marine, chosen or cultist units. That's pretty bad.

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
Err... infiltrating troops is cool... but now our IC's can't join them during deployment. No lords or sorcerers joining chaos marine, chosen or cultist units. That's pretty bad.

What HQ would want to join any of those units anyway (PLEASE don't say Cultists because they're not meant for anything but meatshields)? HQ's are likely mounted on something and should be fast enough regardless.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
Err... infiltrating troops is cool... but now our IC's can't join them during deployment. No lords or sorcerers joining chaos marine, chosen or cultist units. That's pretty bad.

What HQ would want to join any of those units anyway (PLEASE don't say Cultists because they're not meant for anything but meatshields)? HQ's are likely mounted on something and should be fast enough regardless.

A sorcerer? A cheap lord?

It's fine if all of your IC's are on bikes but if not they don't have many options now.

It's irritating sure. You don't Have to infiltrate stuff, you can choose to deploy normally.

 Snake Tortoise wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
Err... infiltrating troops is cool... but now our IC's can't join them during deployment. No lords or sorcerers joining chaos marine, chosen or cultist units. That's pretty bad.

What HQ would want to join any of those units anyway (PLEASE don't say Cultists because they're not meant for anything but meatshields)? HQ's are likely mounted on something and should be fast enough regardless.

A sorcerer? A cheap lord?

It's fine if all of your IC's are on bikes but if not they don't have many options now.

Sorcerers are already going to be on bikes to help vs ID, and a cheap Lord? I know we don't give up STW easily with Alpha Legion but you shouldn't want to help them out.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
Err... infiltrating troops is cool... but now our IC's can't join them during deployment. No lords or sorcerers joining chaos marine, chosen or cultist units. That's pretty bad.

What HQ would want to join any of those units anyway (PLEASE don't say Cultists because they're not meant for anything but meatshields)? HQ's are likely mounted on something and should be fast enough regardless.

A sorcerer? A cheap lord?

It's fine if all of your IC's are on bikes but if not they don't have many options now.

Sorcerers are already going to be on bikes to help vs ID, and a cheap Lord? I know we don't give up STW easily with Alpha Legion but you shouldn't want to help them out.

I'll tell that to my unmounted sorcerer model

Better hope a mounted lord doesn't roll infiltrate for his warlord trait or he can't join bikes or spawn on deployment. It just irritates me that an IC without infiltrate can't deploy with an infiltrating unit even if that unit doesn't choose to infiltrate, and vice versa


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
It's irritating sure. You don't Have to infiltrate stuff, you can choose to deploy normally.

The problem is I don't think you can. Infiltrators are forced to deploy last, and you can't just put them in your deployment zone in coherence with an IC and have those units attach to each other immediately

From the recent official rulebook faq
Q: Are models with the Infiltrate special rule allowed to not use
the rule to deploy and then charge normally in the first turn?
A: Yes.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
From the recent official rulebook faq
Q: Are models with the Infiltrate special rule allowed to not use
the rule to deploy and then charge normally in the first turn?
A: Yes.

Wow, didn't notice that one!

Thanks

Everyone ignore me from now on

It is pretty dumb that AL IC's can't infiltrate along with their guys. It seems the only reason this is the case is to force one of the warlord traits to be infiltrate for your WL. Pretty sure GW could have come up with an extra trait and added infiltrate to the warlord (and to DA's from the LatD formation too). It's not gonna break the game to allow that for those two IC's. Without it AL deployment just becomes janky. You either deploy your IC's solo (meaning they die fast) or you don't make use of your guys infiltrate (how is THAT fluffy?) or you stick them on bikes. I frickin hate bikes. Seems the current incarnation of 40k has a hard-on for bikes. Everyone has to be on one. And then if you do stick your Lord on a bike and roll infiltrate anyway, well then you're just stuck with flying solo or not using the trait. It's all a bit of a mess tbh. Really no reason not to just throw infiltrate on the warlord and on a DA from a LotD formation as part of the detachment rules. It'd make a LOT more sense and ahrdly break the game.

Speaking of breaking the game I am trying to list build a basic AL force using the detachment and minimum units required to pull off the AL feel. The formations cost so many points to pull off it's ridiculous. You can barely squeeze out a bare bones Warband + LotD (a practically mandatory aux choice for the AL). You can squeeze in a second aux formation of you go really light on the warband and completely bare bones on the cultists but this is pushing it. AS soon as you try to add anything resembling a vehicle (including Rhino's) you're starting to push the limit of what you can do in an 1850 list. I don't see how a bit of infiltration and the chance of regening a few crappy cultist squads can possibly compare to free transports all-around (plus myriad other bonuses). It's a shame that realistically you can barely make use of these formations in a game. They look good on paper but in reality they're empty promises. It looks like the force org chart is where legions shine, with their x unit as troops and half the legion bonuses handed out to them.

I get GW is trying to push models by scaling up the game to higher points values but in order for most of these chaos formations to work on the table then GW is going to have to address the over-pricing of the codex units. Or give chaos free units too. Instead of repeating the LatD rule for bringing back dead cultists GW should have given AL a free 10 man squad of cultists (to start in reserve with outflank) for every chaos marine squad taken in the warband. That would have free'd up a lot of points from the practically mandatory aux pick so you could pick up something else instead and not lose half your legion rules because you didn't buy cultists.

Yeah. these formations add up quick.

an alternative is to Use the Black Crusade detachment, which gets the Lost and the Damned as a core. Of course you only get one roll to bring back each unit of dead cultists then.

Demantiae wrote:
It is pretty dumb that AL IC's can't infiltrate along with their guys. It seems the only reason this is the case is to force one of the warlord traits to be infiltrate for your WL. Pretty sure GW could have come up with an extra trait and added infiltrate to the warlord (and to DA's from the LatD formation too). It's not gonna break the game to allow that for those two IC's. Without it AL deployment just becomes janky. You either deploy your IC's solo (meaning they die fast) or you don't make use of your guys infiltrate (how is THAT fluffy?) or you stick them on bikes. I frickin hate bikes. Seems the current incarnation of 40k has a hard-on for bikes. Everyone has to be on one. And then if you do stick your Lord on a bike and roll infiltrate anyway, well then you're just stuck with flying solo or not using the trait. It's all a bit of a mess tbh. Really no reason not to just throw infiltrate on the warlord and on a DA from a LotD formation as part of the detachment rules. It'd make a LOT more sense and ahrdly break the game.

Speaking of breaking the game I am trying to list build a basic AL force using the detachment and minimum units required to pull off the AL feel. The formations cost so many points to pull off it's ridiculous. You can barely squeeze out a bare bones Warband + LotD (a practically mandatory aux choice for the AL). You can squeeze in a second aux formation of you go really light on the warband and completely bare bones on the cultists but this is pushing it. AS soon as you try to add anything resembling a vehicle (including Rhino's) you're starting to push the limit of what you can do in an 1850 list. I don't see how a bit of infiltration and the chance of regening a few crappy cultist squads can possibly compare to free transports all-around (plus myriad other bonuses). It's a shame that realistically you can barely make use of these formations in a game. They look good on paper but in reality they're empty promises. It looks like the force org chart is where legions shine, with their x unit as troops and half the legion bonuses handed out to them.

I get GW is trying to push models by scaling up the game to higher points values but in order for most of these chaos formations to work on the table then GW is going to have to address the over-pricing of the codex units. Or give chaos free units too. Instead of repeating the LatD rule for bringing back dead cultists GW should have given AL a free 10 man squad of cultists (to start in reserve with outflank) for every chaos marine squad taken in the warband. That would have free'd up a lot of points from the practically mandatory aux pick so you could pick up something else instead and not lose half your legion rules because you didn't buy cultists.

1. Bikes have been good for most of 40k. This is nothing new.
2. You get a chance to reroll your Warlord trait assuming you're Battleforged. Rolling Infiltrate is not a big deal.
3. I don't care if you personally hate Bikes. The thread isn't about how much you hate certain aspects of the army because. We are talking about how good things are, and Bikes do several things that are nice.

Demantiae wrote:
It is pretty dumb that AL IC's can't infiltrate along with their guys. It seems the only reason this is the case is to force one of the warlord traits to be infiltrate for your WL. Pretty sure GW could have come up with an extra trait and added infiltrate to the warlord (and to DA's from the LatD formation too). It's not gonna break the game to allow that for those two IC's. Without it AL deployment just becomes janky. You either deploy your IC's solo (meaning they die fast) or you don't make use of your guys infiltrate (how is THAT fluffy?) or you stick them on bikes. I frickin hate bikes. Seems the current incarnation of 40k has a hard-on for bikes. Everyone has to be on one. And then if you do stick your Lord on a bike and roll infiltrate anyway, well then you're just stuck with flying solo or not using the trait. It's all a bit of a mess tbh. Really no reason not to just throw infiltrate on the warlord and on a DA from a LotD formation as part of the detachment rules. It'd make a LOT more sense and ahrdly break the game.

Speaking of breaking the game I am trying to list build a basic AL force using the detachment and minimum units required to pull off the AL feel. The formations cost so many points to pull off it's ridiculous. You can barely squeeze out a bare bones Warband + LotD (a practically mandatory aux choice for the AL). You can squeeze in a second aux formation of you go really light on the warband and completely bare bones on the cultists but this is pushing it. AS soon as you try to add anything resembling a vehicle (including Rhino's) you're starting to push the limit of what you can do in an 1850 list. I don't see how a bit of infiltration and the chance of regening a few crappy cultist squads can possibly compare to free transports all-around (plus myriad other bonuses). It's a shame that realistically you can barely make use of these formations in a game. They look good on paper but in reality they're empty promises. It looks like the force org chart is where legions shine, with their x unit as troops and half the legion bonuses handed out to them.

I get GW is trying to push models by scaling up the game to higher points values but in order for most of these chaos formations to work on the table then GW is going to have to address the over-pricing of the codex units. Or give chaos free units too. Instead of repeating the LatD rule for bringing back dead cultists GW should have given AL a free 10 man squad of cultists (to start in reserve with outflank) for every chaos marine squad taken in the warband. That would have free'd up a lot of points from the practically mandatory aux pick so you could pick up something else instead and not lose half your legion rules because you didn't buy cultists.

It does make deployment awkward. Maybe a good fix would have been a relic giving infiltrate to the IC and his unit, but never mind

Our legion rules may not be as good as gladius but in fairness if you want to make a very strong MSU army I think you can with the warband, respawning cultists and enough warp charges to get some of the new horrors summoned. I could imagine AL could be very strong in the objective game and slay the warlord is going to be a difficult task.

I kind of share your dislike for bikes. I'd happily field plenty of regular bikes given their strength and the big buff they get with turn 1 shrouding, but putting my IC's on bikes doesn't interest me at all. There are so many great chaos lord and sorcerer models it seems a shame to have to convert one using the boring (and ancient) bike models we have, and even in 40k the idea of marines on motorbikes seems a bit silly if it isn't just for the purpose of scouting. I think it helps to imagine them jumping off before CC begins

In any case, it's hard to deny how good bikes are at the moment. Our troops units have been buffed a bit but didn't start out too great to begin with, but in the warband our bikes got better and were already good

The issue of a non-infiltrating HQ (by default) is a big bummer. However, the Warlord traits are all pretty good, and a few give you options. One trait straight gives you Infiltrate, and another lets you swap places with a character on the field. You may as well be able to infiltrate that way. If you use a Dreadclaw (like I do), you can drop in turn 1, pop out, and join a unit. It's not ideal, but it's an option.

Unlike many of the other Legions, I actually don't think the Chaos Warband is the way to go. There are too many non-optimal units, and the Lost and Damned formation is redundant, and makes you lose Obsec (which is HUGE). Sadly, I feel a straight CAD with the possibility of another detachment or formation will be the way to go. Infiltrating Chosen, Infiltrating Cultists who re-spawn, with Obsec, can be game-winning. No need for garbage transports to get upfield; just infil or outflank. If you can get an HQ (particularly an Apostle for Hatred) with a max unit of Cultists, AND get the warlord trait for furious charge and 6+ FNP on them, that Obsec blob will get work done.

I'm throwing a few list ideas around, but the one I'm starting to like more and more has a max unit of cultists and an Apostle with the Mindveil to join them. Make them faster and just sweep Infantry. Chosen with Plasma Guns infil around them as well for fire support.

You can't get ObSec respawning cultists as to get the respawn rule you either need the LatD formation or the full AL detachment, neither of which give cultists ObSec.

A big advantgae of using a DA with the mindveil is that he can jump to hook up with newly spawned cultists to bring them into the action quicker. If they respawn in the late game they may not see further action, but the mindveil can bring them back quickly.

I think if you were to take a plasma squad you'd want to go havocs. One less gun but chosen are paying for an extra attack and in-built combat weapons. If you don't use that you're wasting points by not using an essential part of their kit. Better to give the chosen melta of flamers so they can shoot and assault. Havocs can take the plasma without paying for that extra cc. I'd like to stick a lord in with them along with the AP2 bolter for that extra gun and the fearless. He can also carry the CC if they get assaulted too. A plasma squad you probably don't want to infiltrate anyway. If you infiltrate your opponent can see where they're placed. If you can bring them in through drop pod or take the legacy of ruin that grants outflank then you have tactical flexibility that can't be countered until the unit hits the ground running.

I'm inclined to use the chosen with flamer/melta combo's and run them behind the cultists, sweeping aside choice units that will trouble your cultists so they can tarpit the rest.

I disagree. Plasma is best used in redundancy and Chosen can get more close to the enemy for the cost compared to regular squads.

Demantiae wrote:
You can't get ObSec respawning cultists as to get the respawn rule you either need the LatD formation or the full AL detachment, neither of which give cultists ObSec.

A big advantgae of using a DA with the mindveil is that he can jump to hook up with newly spawned cultists to bring them into the action quicker. If they respawn in the late game they may not see further action, but the mindveil can bring them back quickly.

I think if you were to take a plasma squad you'd want to go havocs. One less gun but chosen are paying for an extra attack and in-built combat weapons. If you don't use that you're wasting points by not using an essential part of their kit. Better to give the chosen melta of flamers so they can shoot and assault. Havocs can take the plasma without paying for that extra cc. I'd like to stick a lord in with them along with the AP2 bolter for that extra gun and the fearless. He can also carry the CC if they get assaulted too. A plasma squad you probably don't want to infiltrate anyway. If you infiltrate your opponent can see where they're placed. If you can bring them in through drop pod or take the legacy of ruin that grants outflank then you have tactical flexibility that can't be countered until the unit hits the ground running.

I'm inclined to use the chosen with flamer/melta combo's and run them behind the cultists, sweeping aside choice units that will trouble your cultists so they can tarpit the rest.

My bad, missed the Cultists only getting to respawn in the Sons of Alpharius detachment. Losing Obsec for those cultists is the nail in the coffin for the Lost and Damned formation.

If you switch to Havocs, you lose Infiltrate, which is massive. Getting up close with the Plasmaguns turn 1/2 is why you have them.