Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

No I don't think the rules are going back to the prior's bloated mess.

You mean a complex and engaging rules set that allows for tactics, strategy and manoeuvring?

What are the options in AOS again? Do I hit on 4's and wound on 3's or hit on 3's and wound on 4's.

Tough decisions.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

No I don't think the rules are going back to the prior's bloated mess.

You mean a complex and engaging rules set that allows for tactics, strategy and manoeuvring?

What are the options in AOS again? Do I hit on 4's and wound on 3's or hit on 3's and wound on 4's.

Tough decisions.

Yeah, a strategy so complex that you spend half the game looking through your rulebook. And tactics so deep that they contradict each other in the rulebook so hard that finding a game was near impossible for years.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Old World, and I loved Fantasy. But, the last couple editions before it got canned weren't even fun for me to play. And a group (other than basement groups who don't generally invite new people) was so hard to find that most of my stuff had sat in a basement while I moved onto 40k so I could reliably get games in. Since the release of the General's Handbook, there have actually been people playing it in my local store, and groups sprouting up in other places locally. There has been enough activity for the game that I have broken all my stuff out and have been furiously rebasing and prepping my models for the table once again.

I had some serious doubts about it at first, but I don't remember the last time I have been this excited about my High Elves in a long time.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
What are the options in AOS again? Do I hit on 4's and wound on 3's or hit on 3's and wound on 4's.

Depends on your army and the circumstances that it is in.

For instance, if you are a Fyreslayer player that uses Auric Hearthguard (which you should, they rock, literally) you can add 1 to hit rolls if you maneuver your Fyreslayer Hero within 5 inches of them. Conversely, if you happen to be playing against Fyreslayers, and they use Auric Hearthguard (which they should), if they shoot and wound a unit that has the "Monster" keyword, it subtracts its hit roll by 1, until it's next turn, in addition to its movement being halved, as well as possible stat reductions, depending on how many wounds were caused.

A common tactic with Fyreslayers is to use the Auric Hearthguard in conjunction with a Auric Runesmiter. Their "Magmic Tunneling" ability allows them to pick one Fyreslayer unit and declare that they are underground. They can then surface during a movement phase, the next phase is shooting, and that's where they shine. (See above)

Myself, as Fyreslayer player, I use the above tactic and maneuver as a key part of my overall strategy . It's generally pretty effective.

Would you like to know more?

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

No I don't think the rules are going back to the prior's bloated mess.

You mean a complex and engaging rules set that allows for tactics, strategy and manoeuvring?

What are the options in AOS again? Do I hit on 4's and wound on 3's or hit on 3's and wound on 4's.

Tough decisions.

Yeah, a strategy so complex that you spend half the game looking through your rulebook. And tactics so deep that they contradict each other in the rulebook so hard that finding a game was near impossible for years.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Old World, and I loved Fantasy. But, the last couple editions before it got canned weren't even fun for me to play. And a group (other than basement groups who don't generally invite new people) was so hard to find that most of my stuff had sat in a basement while I moved onto 40k so I could reliably get games in. Since the release of the General's Handbook, there have actually been people playing it in my local store, and groups sprouting up in other places locally. There has been enough activity for the game that I have broken all my stuff out and have been furiously rebasing and prepping my models for the table once again.

I had some serious doubts about it at first, but I don't remember the last time I have been this excited about my High Elves in a long time.

Did you start in 6th? I never had a hard time getting a game in during that time. It was a true renaissance for WFB, and the ridiculous ASR power creep killed it dead.

I am utterly delighted to find that the rumours are true.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Age-of-Sigmar-Spire-of-Dawn-ENG

Round and square bases included. GW have realised that the success of AoS is to a large part not due to AoS but panic buying by WHFB 8th players, and fan fixed continuations such as 8.5 and 9th Age.

I was a little despondent after the necromancer character sprue was redone to omit the square base, when it was just cheaper and simpler to take that perfectly normal and modern sculpt and just add a round base. There evidently was an initial move to only support fantasy as AoS like it or not. However now perhaps some sane heads have prevailed.




Allowing for the cost of replacing a metal tool for plastic miniatures. Remaking the above perfectly servicable necromancer miniature just to get rid of the square base on the sprue is pointless.

The other interpretation of Spire of Dawn including square bases is that when they opened the IoB boxes to move the contents over the bases were already in the box, and perhaps more importantly the IoB set requires slotted cavalry bases (which don't exist as ovals) and a number of bespoke bases (the Rat Ogor bases have holes in them for the pegs to slot into).

If we see future kits coming with both types then we might be able to suggest the legacy/9th/KoW crowd are buying significantly.

^This and as I said before, the bases are custom made for the models already. Literally nothing else for them but re-used with the box or thrown away.

Round and square bases included. GW have realised that the success of AoS is to a large part not due to AoS but panic buying by WHFB 8th players, and fan fixed continuations such as 8.5 and 9th Age. 

Now you see, this is why appeasing the old guard is such a double edged blade for the fandom.

On one hand it's great to see older fans get what they asked as they deserve to be thrown a bone. On the other hand every nod to them is blown out of proportion and turned into a AoS is failing gloat.

This is why I really fear for a Wfb sidegame to be made. Instead of bringing the fanbases together I can only see it making us more toxic to eachother as we argue over the success of our games.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I like the lore! Also I like that they are finally returning to beastmen in some form, even if it's the god worshipping ones.

As do I.

I'm hoping the Free People get a similar treatment with the other gods. Tyrion worshipping knights would be epic!

 Orlanth wrote:
I am utterly delighted to find that the rumours are true.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Age-of-Sigmar-Spire-of-Dawn-ENG

Round and square bases included.

Yet all the minis are pictured on round bases. And they've consistently said your choice of base shape doesn't matter. I see the inclusion of square bases as their opportunity to dump off a ton of old stock. Probably cheaper than recycling them and less wasteful than tossing them out. Until either of our schools of thought are definitively proven wrong, we won't know.

 Orlanth wrote:

GW have realised that the success of AoS is to a large part not due to AoS but panic buying by WHFB 8th players, and fan fixed continuations such as 8.5 and 9th Age.

Unprovable, and I seriously think people are over estimating the popularity of those systems. On Facebook, I am subscribed to an unofficial Age of Sigmar fan page that has almost double the followers of the official 9th Age page, a little over 4K to almost 8K. And the official AoS page, 6 times larger at almost 24K.

Not knocking either system that you mention, but I think a lot of folks overstate the size/power of their chosen system. It happens on all sides, to be fair. Confirmation bias, I think it's called.

And I realize using a Facebook followers count isn't exactly a scientific method, but in today's world of widespread social media usage, it can be indicative of certain trends.

 Orlanth wrote:
There evidently was an initial move to only support fantasy as AoS like it or not. However now perhaps some sane heads have prevailed.

We'll see when a kit, barring the repackaged ones, is released that could be retroactively used for WHFB. Aside from Bloodreavers, and the melee variants of the Kurnoth Hunters, we've gotten none. You could maybe proxy a few other kits as something close to a unit from the defunct WHFB units, but by a large margin it's all AoS, all the time. The Disciples of Tzeentch release, from what's been pictured, only continue that trend. Sure, a few of the units can be proxied as Marauders or Bestigor, but they have optional build that aren't retroactive.

And speaking of the Disciples of Tzeentch, that release will be the real litmus test on the whole "square base" debate. One way or the other it will get settled!

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

No I don't think the rules are going back to the prior's bloated mess.

You mean a complex and engaging rules set that allows for tactics, strategy and manoeuvring?

What are the options in AOS again? Do I hit on 4's and wound on 3's or hit on 3's and wound on 4's.

Tough decisions.

Dude, could you please make a bigger strawman? Your point is literally: should I give a tactical squad a grav-gun or a plasma gun? Literally that, meaning you actually have no point since both options will make you do the same things by and large. But they are just the tip of the iceberg, because ultimately all your tacticals will be doing more or less the same. Do you bring prosecutors, do you bring in stardrakes? do you bring the dracoth cavalry? if sowhich vairant?

So yeah, what about we talk on kurnoth's? Do I get a ranged weapon that is powerful or do I get one of two meelee weapons, one with more attacks and more consistent damage or another one that has less attacks, random damage, but more range, rend and potential damage? Do I want them to perform static support or

Or hell, let's go to the basics, the state troops: do I give them swords and shields, thus making them a defensive unit, do I give them spears and thus I give them the ability to attack in two rows, thus favoring massed squads, do I give them halberds and thus give them rend and the ability to counter lightly armored hordes (skelletons being the prime example). Do I take them in this formation or use the general's ability for making them a better roadblock because it will take a lot of effort to shift a 30 man blob that will be hitting and wounding on 3+ and make a crapload of dices, all while not running away most of the time, since you may have taken them on their batallion that lets them ignore fleeing models on 1-2 and they can re-roll it since they are order.

Hell, your argument even falls flat once you consider things proper instead of making a strawman: do I give two weapons or a shield? Do I get a foot-celestant or a castellant/relictor? The first one will be a powerful meelee unit for what is a basic unit, hitting on a 2+ re-rollable and wounding mayhaps on a 3+. The latter will be for bunkering down as they'll have, in cover and with a castellant, a 2++ re-rollable. plop in a relictor and you have a top-denial unit for playing the blood and glory scenario (yeah, we should talk about the fact that your standard game is more than kill-them-all, unlike fantasy's standard format) as they'll require obnoxious amount of firepower to take down.

Such trivial decissions.

Yeah. I liked the complex and engaging rules that allowed for me to have to look up rules every 10 minutes.

Sign me back up for that.

 auticus wrote:
Yeah. I liked the complex and engaging rules that allowed for me to have to look up rules every 10 minutes.

Sign me back up for that.

Don't forget the bickering for 5 solid minutes regarding how you should play x rule. Happened at least once per game, or so the veteran folks of my LGS say. And it's not much of a stretch considering that it does happen on 40k. Good stuff it sounds.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
. Now for what I have been seeing and reading AoS is doing really bad, in fact I have heard that even wfb sold more then it's currently selling.

AoS sells better both model and novel wise than WFB did for quite some time.

 reds8n wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
. Now for what I have been seeing and reading AoS is doing really bad, in fact I have heard that even wfb sold more then it's currently selling.

AoS sells better both model and novel wise than WFB did for quite some time.

The novel part is just Black Library propangada: I still see less then 400 copies of limited edition "Gates of Azyr" books ... Not to mention that you can still buy most of the limited edition stuff.

I'm going off of the comments by people who write for BL who have said that their books are higher selling.

I think the limited edition books in general are selling less/less quickly -- there's HH ones left at times now when they'd be gone in minutes when they first popped up.

I've certainly bought less


tbf some of it is also people being a bit mroe aware that these stories will be available elsewhere, in some format, at some point too.

I think the AoS crowd is far more e-format dominated both with regards to rules and background.

Either side is just speculation.. We will never see the true difference between the two because Games Workshop don't want us to know..

I just know that AoS is dead in my area and normally difficult to find a game.
The past had a lot stronger WHFB community but can't say what its like in other areas.
But normally I could throw a rock in a game store and hit a magic, xwing or Warhordes player.
Those are the top three games in most areas.

And here on Dakka Dakka most 40k players beg to GW, NOT to do the same to their game...

 Genoside07 wrote:
Either side is just speculation.. We will never see the true difference between the two because Games Workshop don't want us to know..

I just know that AoS is dead in my area and normally difficult to find a game.
The past had a lot stronger WHFB community but can't say what its like in other areas.
But normally I could throw a rock in a game store and hit a magic, xwing or Warhordes player.
Those are the top three games in most areas.

And here on Dakka Dakka most 40k players beg to GW, NOT to do the same to their game...

Except they are saying outright: it's selling more than fantasy did a few years prior.

Here on Dakka Dakka most 40k players whine about anything. For hell's sake, we have people whinning about chaos space marines being op,

 reds8n wrote:
I'm going off of the comments by people who write for BL who have said that their books are higher selling.

I think the limited edition books in general are selling less/less quickly -- there's HH ones left at times now when they'd be gone in minutes when they first popped up.

I've certainly bought less


tbf some of it is also people being a bit mroe aware that these stories will be available elsewhere, in some format, at some point too.

I think the AoS crowd is far more e-format dominated both with regards to rules and background.

If this is the case it makes sense because the normal versions of the books cost like 7-10 pounds. Majority of people would spend that much over 25+ pounds for a book.

For me it's books> digital. Even if it's more expensive. (If mail ordering $150 Wfb rpg books didn't stop, nothing will. )

Even then, I don't have interest in getting limited edition stuff. Not really sure of the point of it except grabbing it before it's gone which is really at odds with my reading style which is taking a slow journey through the lore and enjoying it at leisure.

Maybe it's just me being silly, though...

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Genoside07 wrote:
Either side is just speculation.. We will never see the true difference between the two because Games Workshop don't want us to know..

I just know that AoS is dead in my area and normally difficult to find a game.
The past had a lot stronger WHFB community but can't say what its like in other areas.
But normally I could throw a rock in a game store and hit a magic, xwing or Warhordes player.
Those are the top three games in most areas.

And here on Dakka Dakka most 40k players beg to GW, NOT to do the same to their game...

Except they are saying outright: it's selling more than fantasy did a few years prior.

Here on Dakka Dakka most 40k players whine about anything. For hell's sake, we have people whinning about chaos space marines being op,

There was a topic about Ork's being OP, wrap your head about that.

Or warlocks being broken. fething warlocks, THE worst HQ on the eldar army, which would be mediocre in other armies barring the bottom barrel.

 Just Tony wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

No I don't think the rules are going back to the prior's bloated mess.

You mean a complex and engaging rules set that allows for tactics, strategy and manoeuvring?

What are the options in AOS again? Do I hit on 4's and wound on 3's or hit on 3's and wound on 4's.

Tough decisions.

Yeah, a strategy so complex that you spend half the game looking through your rulebook. And tactics so deep that they contradict each other in the rulebook so hard that finding a game was near impossible for years.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Old World, and I loved Fantasy. But, the last couple editions before it got canned weren't even fun for me to play. And a group (other than basement groups who don't generally invite new people) was so hard to find that most of my stuff had sat in a basement while I moved onto 40k so I could reliably get games in. Since the release of the General's Handbook, there have actually been people playing it in my local store, and groups sprouting up in other places locally. There has been enough activity for the game that I have broken all my stuff out and have been furiously rebasing and prepping my models for the table once again.

I had some serious doubts about it at first, but I don't remember the last time I have been this excited about my High Elves in a long time.

Did you start in 6th? I never had a hard time getting a game in during that time. It was a true renaissance for WFB, and the ridiculous ASR power creep killed it dead.

Yeah, I started in 6th, it was glorious haha. It was pretty easy to get a game in for a while. Than Dakka Dakka the brick and mortar store swapped hands than got renamed and closed, along with my hopes of a reliable Fantasy group.

Depends on your army and the circumstances that it is in.

For instance, if you are a Fyreslayer player that uses Auric Hearthguard (which you should, they rock, literally) you can add 1 to hit rolls if you maneuver your Fyreslayer Hero within 5 inches of them. Conversely, if you happen to be playing against Fyreslayers, and they use Auric Hearthguard (which they should), if they shoot and wound a unit that has the "Monster" keyword, it subtracts its hit roll by 1, until it's next turn, in addition to its movement being halved, as well as possible stat reductions, depending on how many wounds were caused.

A common tactic with Fyreslayers is to use the Auric Hearthguard in conjunction with a Auric Runesmiter. Their "Magmic Tunneling" ability allows them to pick one Fyreslayer unit and declare that they are underground. They can then surface during a movement phase, the next phase is shooting, and that's where they shine. (See above)

Myself, as Fyreslayer player, I use the above tactic and maneuver as a key part of my overall strategy . It's generally pretty effective.

Would you like to know more?

So what your saying is that there are synergies between units, just like in Fantasy. Except you can't join characters to units unlike in fantasy, which is mindbogglingly stupid IMO.

So you have a 360 degree arc of movment/ charging and random movment for marching/charging. So do I get to march block, flee, bait, fein flight, re-direct charges, stand and shoot or exploit lines of sight and charge arcs? If not, then I'm afraid there is only the illusion of maneuvering in AOS and the simplest form of strategy and tactics.

Yeah, a strategy so complex that you spend half the game looking through your rulebook. And tactics so deep that they contradict each other in the rulebook so hard that finding a game was near impossible for years.

As opposed to spending half the time looking through your warscroll now because there's no such thing as standardized wargear anymore. Everything is a special snowflake with it's own rules that changes from unit to unit. How about the fact that AOS needed an FAQ longer than the rules it's self just because the rules were so ambiguous.

I also belonged to one of the largest Fantasy groups in Canada, so I never had a problem finding a game.

Yeah. I liked the complex and engaging rules that allowed for me to have to look up rules every 10 minutes

I can't help it if you need to look up fairly simple rules constantly. AOS currently has way more special rules than Fantasy ever did just by virtue of not having a complete list of universal special rules built right into the core mechanics. Now everything needs it's own warscroll just to know what it does as opposed to a single rulebook. Granted there were additional special rules given to each army in it's own army book, but not that many.

Dude, could you please make a bigger strawman? Your point is literally: should I give a tactical squad a grav-gun or a plasma gun? Literally that, meaning you actually have no point since both options will make you do the same things by and large. But they are just the tip of the iceberg, because ultimately all your tacticals will be doing more or less the same. Do you bring prosecutors, do you bring in stardrakes? do you bring the dracoth cavalry? if sowhich vairant?

What strawman? I just pointed out about half of the options in the game right there. Most of them are redundant, giving the illusion of choice. The dumbing down of the rules has devolved the game down to simple Hammer and Anvil. The nuance is gone.

You want to like AOS thats fine. But saying it's a well thought out and tactical game is ridiculous.

Baron Klatz wrote:
^This and as I said before, the bases are custom made for the models already. Literally nothing else for them but re-used with the box or thrown away.

Round and square bases included. GW have realised that the success of AoS is to a large part not due to AoS but panic buying by WHFB 8th players, and fan fixed continuations such as 8.5 and 9th Age. 

Now you see, this is why appeasing the old guard is such a double edged blade for the fandom.

On one hand it's great to see older fans get what they asked as they deserve to be thrown a bone. On the other hand every nod to them is blown out of proportion and turned into a AoS is failing gloat.

This is why I really fear for a Wfb sidegame to be made. Instead of bringing the fanbases together I can only see it making us more toxic to eachother as we argue over the success of our games.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I like the lore! Also I like that they are finally returning to beastmen in some form, even if it's the god worshipping ones.

As do I.

I'm hoping the Free People get a similar treatment with the other gods. Tyrion worshipping knights would be epic!

The way I see it, packing things with rounds AND squares caters to both, and doesn't leave one group out in the cold. If they were smart they'd move 8th (Since despite my dreams I know they would never use 6th) to either digital only or small online exclusive print runs, then include square bases in each box just to cater. It wouldn't even take much effort to do a small one page PDF of rules for units that are AOS exclusive to port them over. I realize copyright hargleblargle, but it would go a long way to getting sales going. Kind of like when the daemon boxes came with both bases, it catered to 40K and WFB at the same time, now we have a precedent to do the same. Run with it, GW.

That would've been great but once again, the amount of "the squares are the only reason it sells!" from the old guard would've put a sour taste in my mouth from what should've been a good compromise.

Seriously, I see so many 9th age armies using other company models and 8.5 using Ebay to get OOP models from older editions that I just can't understand this claim of them holding GW's fantasy sells up instead of all the AoS fans that keep joining up.

Yeah, I started in 6th, it was glorious haha. It was pretty easy to get a game in for a while. Than Dakka Dakka the brick and mortar store swapped hands than got renamed and closed, along with my hopes of a reliable Fantasy group.

Ah, unfortunately I know that feeling. My local comic store went under new management some time ago and it's been a massive downgrade from the wall to wall comic books and tabletop player hordes that it once was.

 Except you can't join characters to units unlike in fantasy, which is mindbogglingly stupid IMO. 

Works for Total War Warhammer.

Also, wasn't that how Warmaster was or did I overlook. Something?

 How about the fact that AOS needed an FAQ longer than the rules it's self just because the rules were so ambiguous. 

Alot of those clarifications were on obvious things and it was only so many pages because it was so spread out that it was a few small faqs per page.

If you condensed it down it'd only be four pages long as well.

I also belonged to one of the largest Fantasy groups in Canada, so I never had a problem finding a game. 

Awesome!

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Depends on your army and the circumstances that it is in.

For instance, if you are a Fyreslayer player that uses Auric Hearthguard (which you should, they rock, literally) you can add 1 to hit rolls if you maneuver your Fyreslayer Hero within 5 inches of them. Conversely, if you happen to be playing against Fyreslayers, and they use Auric Hearthguard (which they should), if they shoot and wound a unit that has the "Monster" keyword, it subtracts its hit roll by 1, until it's next turn, in addition to its movement being halved, as well as possible stat reductions, depending on how many wounds were caused.

A common tactic with Fyreslayers is to use the Auric Hearthguard in conjunction with a Auric Runesmiter. Their "Magmic Tunneling" ability allows them to pick one Fyreslayer unit and declare that they are underground. They can then surface during a movement phase, the next phase is shooting, and that's where they shine. (See above)

Myself, as Fyreslayer player, I use the above tactic and maneuver as a key part of my overall strategy . It's generally pretty effective.

Would you like to know more?

So what your saying is that there are synergies between units, just like in Fantasy. Except you can't join characters to units unlike in fantasy, which is mindbogglingly stupid IMO.

So you have a 360 degree arc of movment/ charging and random movment for marching/charging. So do I get to march block, flee, bait, fein flight, re-direct charges, stand and shoot or exploit lines of sight and charge arcs? If not, then I'm afraid there is only the illusion of maneuvering in AOS and the simplest form of strategy and tactics.

Yeah, a strategy so complex that you spend half the game looking through your rulebook. And tactics so deep that they contradict each other in the rulebook so hard that finding a game was near impossible for years.

As opposed to spending half the time looking through your warscroll now because there's no such thing as standardized wargear anymore. Everything is a special snowflake with it's own rules that changes from unit to unit. How about the fact that AOS needed an FAQ longer than the rules it's self just because the rules were so ambiguous.

I also belonged to one of the largest Fantasy groups in Canada, so I never had a problem finding a game.

Yeah. I liked the complex and engaging rules that allowed for me to have to look up rules every 10 minutes

I can't help it if you need to look up fairly simple rules constantly. AOS currently has way more special rules than Fantasy ever did just by virtue of not having a complete list of universal special rules built right into the core mechanics. Now everything needs it's own warscroll just to know what it does as opposed to a single rulebook. Granted there were additional special rules given to each army in it's own army book, but not that many.

Dude, could you please make a bigger strawman? Your point is literally: should I give a tactical squad a grav-gun or a plasma gun? Literally that, meaning you actually have no point since both options will make you do the same things by and large. But they are just the tip of the iceberg, because ultimately all your tacticals will be doing more or less the same. Do you bring prosecutors, do you bring in stardrakes? do you bring the dracoth cavalry? if sowhich vairant?

What strawman? I just pointed out about half of the options in the game right there. Most of them are redundant, giving the illusion of choice. The dumbing down of the rules has devolved the game down to simple Hammer and Anvil. The nuance is gone.

You want to like AOS thats fine. But saying it's a well thought out and tactical game is ridiculous.

You're making a strawman. Each meelee weapon has 5 characteristics, you're only bothering to list 2 of them. And you clearly haven't played AoS. Killing stuff doesn't win you matched play. You need objectives and meeting the requirements. If you think that there's no nuance/hard choice in being forced to deploy a third of your force per turn, or having to split your army in two, aren't hard choices and don't have any nuance, I'm done.

And seriously, you're comparing searching through one of the six-seven downloaded pages on your mobile phone or one of your six-seven printed pages with finding something in one of 3-4 books?

Yeah, like bookmarks don't exist, OR things like Army Builder, which collects rules for units in one page so you can reference it throughout the game. I realize you really really REALLY love AOS, but try not to be biased. Until you had AOS memorized, you had to flit back and forth through the pages of the rules (all 4) and flitting back and forth between the unit rules. Kind of like every other game that uses printed stat lines. EVERY. OTHER. GAME.

Seriously, this is really starting to border on the kind of belligerence I'd expect from political discussion.

 Just Tony wrote:
Yeah, like bookmarks don't exist, OR things like Army Builder, which collects rules for units in one page so you can reference it throughout the game. I realize you really really REALLY love AOS, but try not to be biased. Until you had AOS memorized, you had to flit back and forth through the pages of the rules (all 4) and flitting back and forth between the unit rules. Kind of like every other game that uses printed stat lines. EVERY. OTHER. GAME.

Seriously, this is really starting to border on the kind of belligerence I'd expect from political discussion.

I just use cards, easy to reference during a game.

But yeah neither sides going to budge, we've got the AoS fan and the AoS hater. Not like either is going to budge.

 Just Tony wrote:
Yeah, like bookmarks don't exist, OR things like Army Builder, which collects rules for units in one page so you can reference it throughout the game. I realize you really really REALLY love AOS, but try not to be biased. Until you had AOS memorized, you had to flit back and forth through the pages of the rules (all 4) and flitting back and forth between the unit rules. Kind of like every other game that uses printed stat lines. EVERY. OTHER. GAME.
Seriously, this is really starting to border on the kind of belligerence I'd expect from political discussion.

.... Are we going through this again? Do I need to point out the sheer hipocrisy in calling the opposing side biased but ignoring the fact that your side is doing the exact same thing?

Also, do I need to point out he outright references using the rulebook, not armybuilder or any listbuilding software? Because by that same metric both games are equal, yes indeed they are. But by the metric of: finding data in 200+ pages-long book (or two books, if you use the armybook's special rules) vs 10 pages stitched together are NOT equal. Please don't move the goalposts, we were talking of a very specific thing and totally unrelated to your point of a player learning the ropes. In which case I'm still going to say you're going to spend less time flitting through pages as you have 10 versus the 300 of the other ruleset and you may not have heard yet of battlescribe and the like. And those rules won't be scattered across the 10 pages, but contained on their own sections: forget about finding out where's fleet or which was the precision shot's bookmark. Grab a white page to act as cover. Write down 1-4 general rules, 5 x unit, 6 y unit. And so on. You won't be needing bookmarks or anything else.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
So what your saying is that there are synergies between units, just like in Fantasy.

Yep!

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Except you can't join characters to units unlike in fantasy, which is mindbogglingly stupid IMO.

I thought the same at first, but I got the sense that they want characters to be something that you have to be mindful of in regards to where you place/move them, rather than just using units as meatshields for them to bus your characters around.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
So you have a 360 degree arc of movment/ charging and random movment for marching/charging.

Yep! And so did Fantasy, for the latter part(bolded) of the statement!

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
So do I get to march block, flee, bait, fein flight, re-direct charges, stand and shoot or exploit lines of sight and charge arcs?

Not quite, as its a different set of rules. There are variations of those tactics in AoS, to some degree though.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
If not, then I'm afraid there is only the illusion of maneuvering in AOS and the simplest form of strategy and tactics.

The statement of yours that I quoted at the top of the page reduced AoS games down to hit and wound rolls, as if the game is a dice based version of Rock'em Sock'em Robots where the armies automatically meet up in the center and roll off to see who wins. There are different phases to the game that do in fact require "tough decisions", as you said, regarding deployment, shooting, movement, combat priority, and planning as best you can for a variety of things that are out of your control.

There are indeed tactics, strategies and maneuver to this game. Maybe not to your liking, but they are there. You can call them "simple" or "illiusions" if it makes you feel better, though!

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Yeah, like bookmarks don't exist, OR things like Army Builder, which collects rules for units in one page so you can reference it throughout the game. I realize you really really REALLY love AOS, but try not to be biased. Until you had AOS memorized, you had to flit back and forth through the pages of the rules (all 4) and flitting back and forth between the unit rules. Kind of like every other game that uses printed stat lines. EVERY. OTHER. GAME.
Seriously, this is really starting to border on the kind of belligerence I'd expect from political discussion.

.... Are we going through this again? Do I need to point out the sheer hipocrisy in calling the opposing side biased but ignoring the fact that your side is doing the exact same thing?

Also, do I need to point out he outright references using the rulebook, not armybuilder or any listbuilding software? Because by that same metric both games are equal, yes indeed they are. But by the metric of: finding data in 200+ pages-long book (or two books, if you use the armybook's special rules) vs 10 pages stitched together are NOT equal. Please don't move the goalposts, we were talking of a very specific thing and totally unrelated to your point of a player learning the ropes. In which case I'm still going to say you're going to spend less time flitting through pages as you have 10 versus the 300 of the other ruleset and you may not have heard yet of battlescribe and the like. And those rules won't be scattered across the 10 pages, but contained on their own sections: forget about finding out where's fleet or which was the precision shot's bookmark. Grab a white page to act as cover. Write down 1-4 general rules, 5 x unit, 6 y unit. And so on. You won't be needing bookmarks or anything else.

So are "move the goalposts" and "strawman" your go-to comments when you don't have a legitimate argument except "I like what you don't like"? When it comes down to it, WFB could be scaled down to 4 pages during 6th. I usually carried the printed cheat sheet that came in White Dwarf and the cheat sheet for the magic phase and lores together wedged into my army book's summary page. That was all I needed unless I had magic items, which were written on my list, OR I used them so much I didn't need to reference them. So once again, "EPIC MASSIVE TEDIOUS SIZESESESESES!!!!!!!!!!!1!1!!!!!!!!!!!!" just doesn't hold up, unless you are too lazy to do a little preparation beforehand, like ALL OF US DO WHEN MAKING OUR LISTS AT HOME BEFORE DECIDING TO BUY OUR FIRST MODEL. Notice no goalposts moved, and no strawmen appear. Also, I hate both football AND scarecrows...