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 Ashiraya wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Has anyone actually gotten Peregrine to concede on... Well Anything?

I do believe I have, but he only does that when he is wrong (which is not often).

While he is... strongly worded, he is not wrong. ITC keeping the typo Stompa is not a proper fix. It is akin to to extinguishing a fire by throwing soaking wet cats at it. Yes, the fire is not getting any bigger from it, but there are better ways to achieve your goal.

It's not like ITC said "Let's keep this stompa RAW mistake and that will fix Orks!", they did what they do everytime something comes up like this and they asked the players how they want it to be ruled - which is healthy for the tournament scene in my opinion.
This fix doesn't make you have to take it, there is still more viable lists for Orks (even though Orks in current Meta aren't winning much anyway)

 Rippy wrote:
It's not like ITC said "Let's keep this stompa RAW mistake and that will fix Orks!", they did what they do everytime something comes up like this and they asked the players how they want it to be ruled - which is healthy for the tournament scene in my opinion.

And this is why it's an example of why ITC sucks. The players voted for an obviously stupid option, and ITC failed to step in and say "this is a typo, it is now fixed". Mass votes with no oversight is a terrible way to run a balance system.

This fix doesn't make you have to take it, there is still more viable lists for Orks (even though Orks in current Meta aren't winning much anyway)

There are two possible outcomes:

1) The typo exploit is powerful enough to win consistently. As the only winning list for a codex that is otherwise hopeless ork players have a choice of exploiting the typo or buying a different army if they want to do more than spend the whole event at the 0-X table.

2) The typo exploit is not powerful enough to win consistently. Orks continue to be a bottom-tier army, and you gain nothing by allowing players to exploit a typo.

The correct answer is to fix the typo with Buzzgob's upgrade cost and then, independently, figure out how to buff the ork codex as a whole so it is a viable faction. ITC's failure to do this is inexcusable.

 Rippy wrote:
They decided to go with RAW, whether or not it was RAI. It.

They didn't go at all with RAW nor RAI they did go with what the player base found fair. For those unfamiliar with the actual text, this is what is written.

Hidden dread mob update file wrote:
In games of Warhammer 40,000: Apocalypse, or other large scale battles, Buzzgob may be exchanged for a Big
Mek Stompa for +300 points (see Warhammer 40,000: Apocalypse, page 272). Buzzgob’s Big Mek Stompa uses
all of the rules for a Big Mek Stompa and may select any of the options available to one for the same points cost.
When this option is selected, Buzzgob counts as a Lords of War choice and an army that includes him may not
select another Lords of War choice.

Now lets look at the ITC ruling.

ITC FAQ wrote:
Mek Boss Buzzgob:
Has the Ere We Go! special rule.
He can take a Big Mek Stompa for the reduced price listed in his profile, but can only be taken in armies that contain only Ork faction models.
His Big Mek Stompa option may only be taken if he is included in a detachment that allows a Lords of War choice. If this option is taken, he only takes up the Lord of War slot, not an additional HQ slot as well.
Ignore his Warlord Trait, as it is redundant

RAW:
Buzzgob is an HQ choice and can bring a Big mek stompa as an option just like a chapter master can buy a power sword. The only limits to this is that you have to play a big apocalypse like game and that you do not bring any other LOW.

RAI:
It was a typo per FW communication

ITC.
Buzzgob gains Ere We Go! and can take a Big mek stompa if he does he becomes a LOW instead of an HQ option. But this can only be done if you play an orks only army.

There are just too many mismatches between the 2 to call it RAW and the FW message that is was a typo makes clear that it isn't RAI either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rippy wrote:
This fix doesn't make you have to take it

It kinda does. They ruled that orks are overcosted and gave them a 400 pts discount for their army but only if you play 1. only 100% orks 2. if you use Buzzgup.
If you don't use buzzgup you are missing out on the discount and are thus playing with an army that they deemed overcosted, This is a horrible way to help / buff an army.

 Peregrine wrote:

 slip wrote:
Once it's intended, is it still an error?

It was never intended. It was a typo that slipped through editing (as confirmed by FW in unofficial replies), and the only reason it wasn't fixed was GW's ridiculous policy of "we don't do FAQs" at the time. It's no different from the 5th edition C:SM having Vindicators with single-shot demolisher cannons (the printed stat line was missing "large blast") for a long time before the typo was finally corrected. In both cases it's an obvious mistake, and it's insane to stubbornly keep playing with the typo.

I agree with you Peregrine, and as soon as GW gets off their combined lazy butts and rewrites and Ork codex that is worth playing and has an actual chance in competitive play I will fight the good fight with you and try and get ITC and FW to fix the Buzzgob stompa.

Of course the Stompa is a complete joke of a LoW model and utter trash when compared to Lords of War half its price. So when they do go about fixing the Ork codex I would love to see the Stompa get better weapons, fix the crappy weapons it currently has and then decrease the points cost by about 270pts. Then Buzzgobs won't be a problem

SemperMortis wrote:

Of course the Stompa is a complete joke of a LoW model and utter trash when compared to Lords of War half its price. So when they do go about fixing the Ork codex I would love to see the Stompa get better weapons, fix the crappy weapons it currently has and then decrease the points cost by about 270pts. Then Buzzgobs won't be a problem

You know that this stompa already exists right its the kustom stompa of Ia8, and the ITC rules have banned it ... :\

 oldzoggy wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Of course the Stompa is a complete joke of a LoW model and utter trash when compared to Lords of War half its price. So when they do go about fixing the Ork codex I would love to see the Stompa get better weapons, fix the crappy weapons it currently has and then decrease the points cost by about 270pts. Then Buzzgobs won't be a problem

You know that this stompa already exists right its the kustom stompa of Ia8, and the ITC rules have banned it ... :\

And even if they hadn't banned it, it wouldn't have been an auto-include nor would it drastically help fix the Ork faction.

BTW Zoggy, Don't you love it when Eldar players try to tell us how unfair Buzzgob is. You know, as they hide behind their 3 Wraithknights which cost less then a Regular Stompa equipped with a 5++ and extra Supa Rokkitz

It would help ork players a lot actually. It wouldn't bring them up to speed. But a 450 pts stompa with a fearless aura and some decent close combat options is quite good for an ork army. The fearless aura alone makes all the difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also yeah this game isn't that balanced ; )

Yes a 450pt stompa, you know a SHW with 12hp FA13 and easy access to SD, is nothing to sniff at. A KMFF can easily give it a 4++ invul as well and you can repair it with meks.

Don't I wish that the chaos SHW with 12hp and FA13 costed 450pts and not 888+ points.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
It's a type but it still is RAW

And this is why trying to play by strict RAW, without even correcting obvious mistakes, is insane. It's the same kind of RAW argument that prevented models with helmets from shooting (no "eyes" to draw LOS from), made the demolisher cannons on Vindicators a single-shot weapon (GW forgot to add "large blast" to the stat line), etc.

ITC doesn't follow strict RAW, buzzgob is one of the instances where they (and the players who voted for it) thought it was better

The ITC lets buzzgob use the Big Mek stompa, which isn't very OP as it was designed for 4e, not 7e. It's still good but not too game-breaking and the rules for it are a pain to find and use.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
It's a type but it still is RAW

And this is why trying to play by strict RAW, without even correcting obvious mistakes, is insane. It's the same kind of RAW argument that prevented models with helmets from shooting (no "eyes" to draw LOS from), made the demolisher cannons on Vindicators a single-shot weapon (GW forgot to add "large blast" to the stat line), etc.

ITC doesn't follow strict RAW, buzzgob is one of the instances where they (and the players who voted for it) thought it was better

The ITC lets buzzgob use the Big Mek stompa, which isn't very OP as it was designed for 4e, not 7e. It's still good but not too game-breaking and the rules for it are a pain to find and use.

And compare it to the Tau Stormsurge, which would you rather have

 CrownAxe wrote:

It's a type but it still is RAW

It's also RAW that Buzzgob can only buy a Stompa in "In games of Warhammer 40,000: Apocalypse, or other large scale battles". Is 1500 points a "large scale battle"?