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oh i know you're being sarcastic dude.

anyway just getting back to the topic at hand.

I find it funny/interesting that you guys complain about buying a ship that you can't/won't use in normal games but you can play with against mates or at store events that allow them...

 captain bloody fists wrote:
ok so.... you all complain about having to pay $100 or so bucks for a ship (boohoo it's nearly $160 here) to only get a few good cards, but then don't complain when you all go and buy small ships that you'll never fly for the near exact reason.

The difference is that the small ships are legal in normal games. It's frustrating when there's an extreme case like the starviper and autothrusters, but those aren't the majority. And even then you can still use your starviper as long as you aren't playing too competitively. Epic ships, on the other hand, aren't legal no matter how casually you're playing. The only way to use them is to play a separate version of the game that doesn't function very well and isn't fun.


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BRB wrote:
Sure it's far from being balanced

That isn't the main issue with epic. The much bigger problem is that the game just doesn't scale very well above 100ish points. You have too many ships on the table, too many conflicting maneuvers to figure out, too many abilities to keep track of, etc. It becomes a tedious slog instead of an entertaining game. The balance issues are just insult to injury, making sure that the lists that win are the least possible fun for any of the players.

If you do a picture search for X-Wing tabletop, you'll see tons people showing off their epic battles or scratch built Neb-Bs.

Those few games are disproportionately represented because of the spectacle factor. A 999999999999 point epic game is at least something different to look at, a picture of a random 100 point tournament game is incredibly boring and will get zero positive attention. But in the real world epic games are rare. I can count on one hand the number of epic games I've even seen played at any of the stores in the area, and I can't think of a single person who has any interest beyond "well, maybe one day it might be ok to try it".


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 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
But then at this point we might as well want it for free and the company can ask for donations. There will never be any agreement between gamers on the exact value a single card would represent, and you know we can't just base it on the quantity of paper, ink, packaging and shipping fees.

Nice slippery slope there. There's a huge difference between "I want this for free" and "I don't want necessary purchases for the standard game to be bundled in with expensive models for a variant game that hardly anyone plays".

I still see 100$ as a small price to pay for what I find to be a bland model*, a generous helping of fixes for multiple Tie Advanced, new pilots, and a god card.

A TIE advanced with the same number of upgrade cards costs $10-15, the same as every other small ship. There is no good reason to have the standard-game components cost $100.

Same number of cards, but not the same cards. We're circling back to the value of those cards. The business model is small ship blister/big ship box/epic ship. And the expansions all carry significant in-universe ties.* If this had been "perfect", we'd have had the Palpatine card in a Lamdba shuttle box (in-universe tie) and some form of differentiation of the TIE Adv. as a second blister that was clearly different from the first so as not to "confuse the consumer." Maybe a box set Imperial Veteranest or somesuch. Would that have been acceptable to everyone, or would there still be commiseration on the internet?

And again, your anecdotal evidence says no one wants to play that version of the game, mine says otherwise. Why does yours hold more value than mine?

I'll agree with you there might be no good reason, but by the time they got around to those fixes (and the new TIE fighter pilots maybe not being on the horizon) they probably tought it would either be fun to try something different for us. Or failed in the imagination department. So middling reasons, from an imperfect state of affairs.

*The ARC-170 being a glaring, jarring departure from that model, imho.

I've played a few epic games. Epic games are not really meant to be competitive. They are meant to be fun. Especially for those want to make a scene similar to those in the movies. Epic is more about putting a raider and tantive or transport on the table and sort of live out stone classic star wars stuff.

Both scales of the game have their merits and epic isn't for everyone. If you want the cards in epic boxes trade for or but them second hand. But I will say, the epic ships make nice desk ornaments!

That they do.

However, I think the naffest Epic ship ever has to be the Rebel Transport. It is super-hard to to make up the points you invest on that thing. It really ought to be a scenario tool and not much else.


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I still can't get over the fact that prices in the US are so cheap... and yet for x-wing stuff, your money can purchase more in Canada on the big ticket items. If I couldn't speak/read English, I'd be stuck paying 28$ per small ship (yes, the French version is a full 3$ more)

Cray cray.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
We're circling back to the value of those cards.

And the value of the cards is the same for all cards. All of FFG's X-Wing prices are set by the price of the ship model, which is based on the size: $15 for small ships, $20 for medium ships, $30-40 for large ships. This isn't MTG, there is no case where you're paying extra for certain cards.

Would that have been acceptable to everyone, or would there still be commiseration on the internet?

Of course it would have been fine. The shuttle, TIE advanced "aces" expansion, etc, would all be ships that can be used in the standard game. You wouldn't be paying the Epic tax anymore.

And again, your anecdotal evidence says no one wants to play that version of the game, mine says otherwise. Why does yours hold more value than mine?

Because mine lines up with FFG's rather obvious treatment of Epic. They've clearly made it a very low priority with zero tournament support, slow and virtually nonexistent new product releases (leaving a massive hole in the product line for a long time), and hardly any attention given to it in official articles. That's what you do with a niche-market product that isn't selling well, not a popular variant of the core game with significant player interest.

Alrighty then. Let's get on it.

How do we petition a company to change a product? Change.org?

As for the tournament support, I'd rather they leave it that way. I don't know if you've seen an Armada tournament... it's a chore.

Alrighty then. Let's get on it.

How do we petition a company to change a product? Change.org?

Not buying stuff you don't like is generally more effective and a lot less "worthy."

Came to this thread to look at peoples views on Scums first epic ship and the possible patch for the Syck.

Instead its yet another rehash of 'epic sucks' and 'FFGs pricing structure is stupid' etc. Great. How about starting a thread for these done to death topics?

On the actual ship (you know, the whole point of the thread) I really like the model and am pleased to finally get some scum epic. I also like the way the titles give the option for it play very different roles and the way that the various upgrades stick with the theme of scummish shenanigans. I am disappointed that they didn't spoil Jabba or what could be a new Syck only weapon (though I guess we will have a preview just for the Syck in the future) however I really wish that they had gone for the Starviper instead and actually made it good. I don't think the new title will save the Syck and doubt its even feasible anyway.

Looking at Cikatro Vizago I wonder if he could have a place in various squads, I dont think I would want him on a bus but on the spray or JM5k he might find a home depending upon what you find yourself facing in a tournament the ability to switch things out could be pretty handy. Thankfully there are less than a dozen illicit options at the moment or one might have to take an entire folder to the game with them.

ingtaer wrote:
Came to this thread to look at peoples views on Scums first epic ship and the possible patch for the Syck.

yes lets do.

i too like the model. i'm probably going to get one and repaint it slightly.

i think Vizago shall be an interesting crew card.

from an epic pov i'm looking forward to the Ionization Reactor for my brawler raider. fly her straight up the guts and bam!

I was thinking of how Vizago would interact with the cloaking device. You take a cloak action then swap out the device for something else (like emp) would this decloak you? Do you follow the text for an upgrade that no longer exists? I would assume so but cant remember anything in the rules that says. A permanently cloaked Mux or Godhali with EMP would be fun.

i would say that it would. plus a ship cloaked is rather useless since it can't attack.

i would say you would be better off having an illicit that's more expensive but then you COULD change to the cloak illicit in the late game, i suppose

Well that's why I was thinking on the HWK with those pilots and EMP because you really don't want to attack. 2 extra agility against one attack dice? I think I know which I would prefer. If it worked you could Ion the enemy and strip either their pilot skill or tokens which could be handy for 20/21pts. Wouldn't shake the universe but might have some utility.

I had a quick flick through rule and FAQ books but couldn't find similar interactions though they must be there as you could Fett a targeting computer etc.

As it stands there are 6? illicits that don't get discarded and seven ships that have the illicit/crew combo to play around with.

The cloak token stays. Cloaking is a part of the core rules, not a ship-specific upgrade. The cloaking device upgrade only grants you the ability to acquire the cloak token, once you're cloaked you're cloaked until something explicitly causes you to decloak or removes the cloak token. Since the cloaking device and its chance of mandatory decloak are no longer on your ship you will remain cloaked until you voluntarily decloak. Of course it's a pretty worthless interaction, as staying cloaked forever means that you aren't dealing any damage. That HWK is still not all that durable (4 agility with no evade tokens/re-rolls/etc and low HP), and now it can't provide a TLT attack.

Also, discarding a targeting computer has no effect. Ships can have target locks even though they don't have the target lock action in their action bar. The most common example is a TIE phantom with FCS, you can't take the target lock as an action but FCS will still give you one after you attack. So if your targeting computer is discarded you would keep any current target lock you have, you just wouldn't be able to get another one (unless some other card lets you).

Cheers for that Peregrine, do you happen to have a reference for that info (ie has it been in the FAQ)? or is it just down the wording of rules? I cant imagine that it is something that comes up that often in games, or ever.

Do you have any thoughts on Vizago? I have been running through all the combinations I can think of but nothing strikes me as being at all competitive.