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No because the wound is resolved against Celestine who if she was to fail any available saves would pass on the number of wounds she would have to take to her Geminae. Only wounds taken not strength or AP unless you were to LoS the wound.


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 Blackie wrote:
Celestine doesn't roll for LOS, her rules say that her bodyguards take her wounds automatically.

The wounds she suffers after failing her save. Not before saves because that would require a LoS.

 rawne2510 wrote:
No because the wound is resolved against Celestine who if she was to fail any available saves would pass on the number of wounds she would have to take to her Geminae. Only wounds taken not strength or AP unless you were to LoS the wound.

In your own response you are juxtaposing wound (ie the Destroyer Attack roll) with wounds (the result of the Destroyer Attack roll) which underscores your continued confusion!

Destroyer Weapon Attacks are not resolved like normal attacks. Until you follow the Destroyer Weapon rules your line of reasoning is incorrect.

Otherwise you are arguing that a model gets as many inv saves against a D attack as the number of wounds that replace the 1 wound. Don't mix Destroyer Attack resolution with normal attack resolution. D attacks have their own special rules and replace the normal rules.

D weapon hits Celestine. Can't pass that off because it's not a wound.

Roll a 6 on the D table - 6+d6 wounds. Roll another 6 - the attack inflicts 12 wounds on Celestine.

Celestine has suffered wounds, so now the Divine Guardian rule kicks in. It says this:

"whilst at least one Geminae Superia is still alive, resolve any wounds suffered by Celestine against the Geminae Superia closest to her instead."

Celestine has suffered 12 wounds; all 12 are resolved simultaneously, so all 12 would be passable to the nearest Geminae Superia, who would die. Then come back again next turn.

col_impact wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
no it doesn´t. the destroyer result isn´t a wound. You can´t just pass it on. you pass on the number of wounds created from the result not the result itself. Otherwise The ID effect of the hit would kill a germinae in 1 go from the 2-5 results which it doesn´t.

You aren't resolving Destroyer Attacks correctly. There is no wound pool generated by the Destroyer Weapon hit. The entirety of the Destroyer Weapon Attack Roll is "instead of 1 wound".

Also, Destroyer Attacks are handled as str 10 so a result of 2-5 will pass of the result of that roll and ID a Geminae

I´m not reolving destroyer weapons incorrectly. We are deciding that you roll for the number of wounds taken instead of 1 at different times. I am saying that you have to resolve the whole of the effect of the Destroyer table on celestine before her divine guardian rule takes effect. You are saying the result of the destroyer roll is passed to the geminae before you determine how many wounds are calculated. The result says that the model suffers 6+D6 wounds instead of 1. The geminae can´t take the wounds at any point before this happens so at this point celestine is suffering at least 7 wounds from Deathblow not 1 wound.


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 BBAP wrote:
D weapon hits Celestine. Can't pass that off because it's not a wound.

Roll a 6 on the D table - 6+d6 wounds. Roll another 6 - the attack inflicts 12 wounds on Celestine.

Celestine has suffered wounds, so now the Divine Guardian rule kicks in. It says this:

"whilst at least one Geminae Superia is still alive, resolve any wounds suffered by Celestine against the Geminae Superia closest to her instead."

Celestine has suffered 12 wounds; all 12 are resolved simultaneously, so all 12 would be passable to the nearest Geminae Superia, who would die. Then come back again next turn.

Up until you said that all 12 wounds would pass on to 1 model I agreed with you. If I hit celestine with 15 Grav shots and she fails 8 wounds. You are saying all 8 wounds would only go on 1 geminae???

 BBAP wrote:
D weapon hits Celestine. Can't pass that off because it's not a wound.

Roll a 6 on the D table - 6+d6 wounds. Roll another 6 - the attack inflicts 12 wounds on Celestine.

Celestine has suffered wounds, so now the Divine Guardian rule kicks in. It says this:

"whilst at least one Geminae Superia is still alive, resolve any wounds suffered by Celestine against the Geminae Superia closest to her instead."

Celestine has suffered 12 wounds; all 12 are resolved simultaneously, so all 12 would be passable to the nearest Geminae Superia, who would die. Then come back again next turn.

Destroyer weapons replace normal wound resolution.

Adjust your answer.

That would be like saying all my LoS rolls from my Captain on 4 Las cannon wounds will go against just 1 marine.

You can't bypass a model's special rules by pretending that the roll on the D weapon table replaces wounding or whatever. it replaces the normal attacks equence, but it still inflicts wounds. You just roll on the D table to see how many wounds the attack inflicts. The attack then inflicts wounds. These wounds can be palmed off to a Geminae Superia as per the Divine Guardian rule, and because they're all resolved simultaneously they're all passed off at the same time.

Even in the case of, for example, Wraithguard with D-Scythes whose templates hit all three of the models in Celestine's little squad, all of Celestine's wounds would necessarily be resolved against the Geminae Superia closest to her because all of them occur simultaneously, so the Geminae don't die before the Divine Guardian rule has had time to take effect.

At no point on the destroyer table do you take just 1 wound from failing a save.

It is either D3 or 6+D6

col_impact wrote:
Destroyer weapons replace normal wound resolution.

They modify the attack sequence slightly but still inflict wounds. No adjustment is needed.

 BBAP wrote:
You can't bypass a model's special rules by pretending that the roll on the D weapon table replaces wounding or whatever. it replaces the normal attacks equence, but it still inflicts wounds. You just roll on the D table to see how many wounds the attack inflicts. The attack then inflicts wounds. These wounds can be palmed off to a Geminae Superia as per the Divine Guardian rule, and because they're all resolved simultaneously they're all passed off at the same time.

Even in the case of, for example, Wraithguard with D-Scythes whose templates hit all three of the models in Celestine's little squad, all of Celestine's wounds would necessarily be resolved against the Geminae Superia closest to her because all of them occur simultaneously, so the Geminae don't die before the Divine Guardian rule has had time to take effect.

I´m sorry but your interpretation of how divine guardian works breaks look out sir rules. a 2 wound model can only take 2 wounds from the number failed by celestine not all 12 or all 50 lasgun wounds.

 rawne2510 wrote:
At no point on the destroyer table do you take just 1 wound from failing a save.

It is either D3 or 6+D6

You still take wounds. Wounds that Celestine suffers are passed off via Divine Guardian to Geminae Superia. Wether you suffer D3 or 6+d6 or 1 is irrelevant; any wounds Celestine suffers are resolved against the closest geminae Superia to her while at least one of them is alive.

wounds still allocate across 1 at a time till a model dies.


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 BBAP wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
At no point on the destroyer table do you take just 1 wound from failing a save.

It is either D3 or 6+D6

You still take wounds. Wounds that Celestine suffers are passed off via Divine Guardian to Geminae Superia. Wether you suffer D3 or 6+d6 or 1 is irrelevant; any wounds Celestine suffers are resolved against the closest geminae Superia to her while at least one of them is alive.

Yes but not every wound in the pool.

 rawne2510 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
no it doesn´t. the destroyer result isn´t a wound. You can´t just pass it on. you pass on the number of wounds created from the result not the result itself. Otherwise The ID effect of the hit would kill a germinae in 1 go from the 2-5 results which it doesn´t.

You aren't resolving Destroyer Attacks correctly. There is no wound pool generated by the Destroyer Weapon hit. The entirety of the Destroyer Weapon Attack Roll is "instead of 1 wound".

Also, Destroyer Attacks are handled as str 10 so a result of 2-5 will pass of the result of that roll and ID a Geminae

I´m not reolving destroyer weapons incorrectly. We are deciding that you roll for the number of wounds taken instead of 1 at different times. I am saying that you have to resolve the whole of the effect of the Destroyer table on celestine before her divine guardian rule takes effect. You are saying the result of the destroyer roll is passed to the geminae before you determine how many wounds are calculated. The result says that the model suffers 6+D6 wounds instead of 1. The geminae can´t take the wounds at any point before this happens so at this point celestine is suffering at least 7 wounds from Deathblow not 1 wound.

You need to adhere to the Destroyer Weapon rules which replace normal wound resolution. Or are you advocating that every wound caused by a single Destroyer hit can be look out sir'ed and saved separately?

 rawne2510 wrote:
I´m sorry but your interpretation of how divine guardian works breaks look out sir rules. a 2 wound model can only take 2 wounds from the number failed by celestine not all 12 or all 50 lasgun wounds.

You've just said yourself that Divine Guardian and LoS don't interact in any way. The existence of Divine Guardian doesn't preclude people from following the normal sequence for LoS, and only a complete douchebag would try to claim they can break LoS because Celestine has a special snowflake rule that allows her to automatically palm off any wounds she suffers.

Divine Guardian isn't Look Out Sir. It's Divine Guardian. It's entirely seperate and the two have no effect on one another.

scenario:

15 lootas get 45 shots

they get lucky and score 20 hits and 15 wounds

celestine gets unlucky and fails 5 saves.

You are saying all 5 go on to just 1 model no matter what.

Not replace celestine with a Captain in tactical squad where he Look out sirs all the wounds. your logical thought wound mean that all 15 wounds go on just 1 man.

The effect of LOS and divine guardian works in the same way just 1 after saves and 1 before saves


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 BBAP wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
I´m sorry but your interpretation of how divine guardian works breaks look out sir rules. a 2 wound model can only take 2 wounds from the number failed by celestine not all 12 or all 50 lasgun wounds.

You've just said yourself that Divine Guardian and LoS don't interact in any way. The existence of Divine Guardian doesn't preclude people from following the normal sequence for LoS, and only a complete douchebag would try to claim they can break LoS because Celestine has a special snowflake rule that allows her to automatically palm off any wounds she suffers.

Divine Guardian isn't Look Out Sir. It's Divine Guardian. It's entirely seperate and the two have no effect on one another.

The way they allocate wounds is the same. You interpretation would be all on to 1 model only

 rawne2510 wrote:
scenario:

15 lootas get 45 shots

they get lucky and score 20 hits and 15 wounds

celestine gets unlucky and fails 5 saves.

You are saying all 5 go on to just 1 model no matter what.

Not replace celestine with a Captain in tactical squad where he Look out sirs all the wounds. your logical thought wound mean that all 15 wounds go on just 1 man.

The effect of LOS and divine guardian works in the same way just 1 after saves and 1 before saves

Destroyer hits work different than normal attacks. Normal attacks generate wound pools. A single Destroyer hits does not generate a wound pool. So Loota wounds can be allocated to multiple models. The wounds caused by a single Destroyer Attack cannot be allocated to more than one model.

 rawne2510 wrote:
The way they allocate wounds is the same.

Not for D weapon attacks it isn't.

You interpretation would be all on to 1 model only

Which is exactly how D weapons work. A single model suffers the wounds and any excess are discarded.

Lootaz are irrelevant, because they create wound pools that must be allocated.

D weapons don't create wound pools. D weapons automatically allocate wounds to a single model which either saves them all or dies trying, with any excess being discarded. All 12 of the wounds are suffered by Celestine, and all 12 can be passed off simultaneously to a single Geminae Superia as per Divine Guardian. The Superia then either makes saves until she fails one or exhausts the wounds, or she dies from the first wound and the rest go in the bin.

EDIT: Two D weapons inflict 6 saveable wounds on Celestine. You pass them all off to the Geminae Superia. You can then roll all the dice concurrently if you like, but it'd be equally valid to just pick up 6 dice and roll them all simultaneously, and remove the model if any throw up a 1, 2 or a 3.

Ah that is where you get it wrong Celestine must fail the wound for it to be passed on to a Geminae. Otherwise it is a LOS if you want the geminae to make the save is my whole point.


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Otherwise you are saying that celestine can never tank wounds as they are automatically moved to the Geminae before she can even choose to save

 rawne2510 wrote:
Ah that is where you get it wrong Celestine must fail the wound for it to be passed on to a Geminae. Otherwise it is a LOS if you want the geminae to make the save is my whole point.

You are failing to replace normal wound resolution with Destroyer Attack resolution.

The Destroyer rules replace the normal rules.


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 rawne2510 wrote:

Otherwise you are saying that celestine can never tank wounds as they are automatically moved to the Geminae before she can even choose to save

Nope. We are saying Destroyer Attacks have their own rules for resolution. Which they do.

Normal attacks are resolved on a wound-by-wound basis. Destroyer Attacks are resolved on a hit-by-hit basis.

 rawne2510 wrote:
Ah that is where you get it wrong Celestine must fail the wound for it to be passed on to a Geminae.

No - it's what ***you're*** getting wrong. Celestine suffers a wound - the wound is resolved against the Geminae Superia, which means the Superia must take the saving throw and then suffer any adverse effects. Wound resolution beings with saving throws. Everything that comes before that is wound allocation. If you've already resolved the wound against Celestine then you're doing it wrong.

Otherwise you are saying that celestine can never tank wounds as they are automatically moved to the Geminae before she can even choose to save

Yep, that's about the size of it.

EDIT: If you want to tell me "suffers" means "has failed a save against", explain to me why so many of 40k's effects state that an affected model "suffers a single wound with no saving throws of [x] type allowed"? Why would they need to add that in there if a model only "suffers" a wound after it's failed its save against it?

That is not how I read BBAP statement.


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col_impact wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
Ah that is where you get it wrong Celestine must fail the wound for it to be passed on to a Geminae. Otherwise it is a LOS if you want the geminae to make the save is my whole point.

You are failing to replace normal wound resolution with Destroyer Attack resolution.

The Destroyer rules replace the normal rules.


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 rawne2510 wrote:

Otherwise you are saying that celestine can never tank wounds as they are automatically moved to the Geminae before she can even choose to save

Nope. We are saying Destroyer Attacks have their own rules for resolution. Which they do.

Normal attacks are resolved on a wound-by-wound basis. Destroyer Attacks are resolved on a hit-by-hit basis.

I understand that Destroyer weapons are different. However there is no wound to pass off until you finished the whole of the D-table where you replace 1 wound with 6+D6 or D3 depending on the result suffered by celestine. It is at that point that celestine has now suffered wounds that divine guardian kicks in.

It is the only negative to Divine guardian because celestine must have suffered a wound for it to activate. At no point within the destroyer weapon result does she ever take just 1 wound. This result only happens after you have made any saving throws not before. To pass the whole hit off to a Geminae you must make a LOS roll not the divine guardian rule.

 rawne2510 wrote:


I understand that Destroyer weapons are different. However there is no wound to pass off until you finished the whole of the D-table where you replace 1 wound with 6+D6 or D3 depending on the result. This result only happens after you have made any saving throws not before. To pass the whole hit off to a Geminae you must make a LOS roll not the divine guardian rule.

Destroyer weapons require the hit to be passed off. Any save or LOS roll is made based on hit and not by wound. No wound pool is generated.

Are you advocating that we need to change how we handle Destroyer weapons and make saves and LOS rolls based on wounds ultimately generated by Destroyer hit and not directly by Destroyer hit? Please let us know because that would change everything.

If celestine suffers a huge amount of unsaved wound she dies, as her bodyguards can only soak some of them. But D weapons work differently, they affect models, not units. If she passes the D result to a gemina, it's her bodyguard that takes the result. And the D6+6 wound only affects a single model, not the entire unit. A huge amount of unsaved wounds would affect the entire unit instead.

And yes celestine doesn't tank wounds to protect their bodyguards.

col_impact wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:


I understand that Destroyer weapons are different. However there is no wound to pass off until you finished the whole of the D-table where you replace 1 wound with 6+D6 or D3 depending on the result. This result only happens after you have made any saving throws not before. To pass the whole hit off to a Geminae you must make a LOS roll not the divine guardian rule.

Destroyer weapons require the hit to be passed off. Any save or LOS roll is made based on hit and not by wound. No wound pool is generated.

Are you advocating that we need to change how we handle Destroyer weapons and make saves and LOS rolls based on wounds ultimately generated by Destroyer hit and not directly by Destroyer hit? Please let us know because that would change everything.

No what I am saying is that the wording of Divine Guardian means that a wound is only passed off of celestine when she takes it. So she can choose to LOS the deathblow hit on to a geminae and kill one model or she takes the hit and generates at least 7 wounds that must then be passed off killing both geminae and her taking 3 wounds. Divine guardian does not allow you to pass off the destroyer hit automatically because it isn´t a wound.

Aren't D-Weapons fun?
That's why Bark Star works so well, even the most successful D-roll kills one eight point mutt.

 rawne2510 wrote:


Divine guardian does not allow you to pass off the destroyer hit automatically because it isn´t a wound.

Yes, technically she doesn't pass the hit, se passes the wounds the she suffers. So if she gets to suffer a D6+6 wounds that affect a single model (the possible D result) the closest bodyguard takes it all, as those wounds only affect a single model not the entire unit, and celestine can't take wounds if her bodyguards are still part of the game.


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 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Aren't D-Weapons fun?
That's why Bark Star works so well, even the most successful D-roll kills one eight point mutt.

If D weapons would affect units and not single models no one would play against armies that use them

 rawne2510 wrote:
I understand that Destroyer weapons are different. However there is no wound to pass off until you finished the whole of the D-table where you replace 1 wound with 6+D6 or D3 depending on the result suffered by celestine. It is at that point that celestine has now suffered wounds that divine guardian kicks in.

Yep - and all the wounds are suffered by Celestine as per the D weapon rules.

It is the only negative to Divine guardian because celestine must have suffered a wound for it to activate.

Celestine "suffers" a wound as soon as a wound is generated against her. She doesn't need to pass or fail a save against it to "suffer" it. You don't partly resolve the wound against Celestine by taking a saving throw for her and then complete the resolution by removing a wound from the Geminae Superia's profile. You resolve the whole wound against the Geminae Superia; she takes the save, then suffers the consequences if she fails it.

At no point within the destroyer weapon result does she ever take just 1 wound.

Exactly. She takes all D3/ 6+d6 wounds simultaneously, and hence can pass them all off to a Geminae Superia.

This result only happens after you have made any saving throws not before.

No it doesn't.

To pass the whole hit off to a Geminae you must make a LOS roll not the divine guardian rule.

That's not what the Divine Guardian rule says, and in order to read it that way you'd have to be resolving Destroyer weapon attacks incorrectly. Under normal circumstances a single Destroyer weapon hit can only ever kill one model no matter how many wounds it generates. Your bass-ackwards interpretation of this rule causes Divine Guardian to become a huge buff for D weapons against Celestine and her Geminae Superia.

Is that what you think the designers intended? It's certainly not what the designers have implemented if you play the rule correctly, but was it their intent, in your view?


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 rawne2510 wrote:
No what I am saying is that the wording of Divine Guardian means that a wound is only passed off of celestine when she takes it.

But that's not what the wording of Divine Guardian says.

A unit "suffers" a wound on a successful to-wound roll. That's why you have all these psychic powers that say "unit suffers a wound with no saves allowed" and suchforth - the unit suffers wounds, which are then resolved against models within the unit. The resolution stage is when saving throws are made. If you're making a saving throw for Celestine then you're resolving the wound against her, which you can't do as per DG while Geminae Superia are alive. You don't get to use Celestine's 2+ armour save to tank wounds for the 3+ armour save Superia, and nor do you get super-buffed D weapon damage against the Living Saint and her bodyguards.

I accept that if that is how people are playing it.

 rawne2510 wrote:
That is not how I read BBAP statement.


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col_impact wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
Ah that is where you get it wrong Celestine must fail the wound for it to be passed on to a Geminae. Otherwise it is a LOS if you want the geminae to make the save is my whole point.

You are failing to replace normal wound resolution with Destroyer Attack resolution.

The Destroyer rules replace the normal rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rawne2510 wrote:

Otherwise you are saying that celestine can never tank wounds as they are automatically moved to the Geminae before she can even choose to save

Nope. We are saying Destroyer Attacks have their own rules for resolution. Which they do.

Normal attacks are resolved on a wound-by-wound basis. Destroyer Attacks are resolved on a hit-by-hit basis.

I understand that Destroyer weapons are different. However there is no wound to pass off until you finished the whole of the D-table where you replace 1 wound with 6+D6 or D3 depending on the result suffered by celestine. It is at that point that celestine has now suffered wounds that divine guardian kicks in.

It is the only negative to Divine guardian because celestine must have suffered a wound for it to activate. At no point within the destroyer weapon result does she ever take just 1 wound. This result only happens after you have made any saving throws not before. To pass the whole hit off to a Geminae you must make a LOS roll not the divine guardian rule.

Go read the D table again please so this thread can cease being sidetracked by sheer stubbornness. The wounds go on one model and the excess are discarded. Thus it would pass to one of the guards and if it dies the rest are lost.

Col impact wasn´t which is why I have been arguing it this way from the beginning before you stepped in.

If you are saying whilst any geminae are alive that celestine doesn´t get to make a single save then I am happy with that because she is less of an issue in combat with my daemons now.
She can´t choose to look out sir any shots until they are both dead .

My whole understanding of this process was that nothing passes off until she fails a save or chooses to LOS. You are the first person I have spoken to with regards to divine guardian that requires her to automatically pass wounds off before saves are made.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 n0t_u wrote:


Go read the D table again please so this thread can cease being sidetracked by sheer stubbornness. The wounds go on one model and the excess are discarded. Thus it would pass to one of the guards and if it dies the rest are lost.

My understanding of how divine guardian worked meant that all the wounds went on to a single model celestine. divine guardian as it is written then seperates the wounds different to how destroyer weapons work. But we have gone past the point of destroyer weapons and moved on to a new rule so the statement of a destroyewr weapon hits 1 model for x wounds deosn´t matter anymore. In my opinion it was a very big negative to the normal awesome effect of divine guardian.