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 Mr. Shine wrote:

Fhionnuisce wrote:
This goes with what I'm asking. Victory points don't care what ICs have joined the unit, they exclusively consider the "units" that have been destroyed as defined by the FOC/army list. The only comparable being discussed doesn't care how they were played with regards to attached characters and unit is used in both contexts within the rules, so why the assumption that a destroyed unit for soulburst refers to the current status of unit on the tabletop and not the fixed unit on the FOC?

Where are we told to go by unit per the Force Organisation Chart to override the Independent Character rules that a joined IC counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes?

That's a fair point. I really hope in the next edition they use different terms for the list unit and the combined unit on the table to reduce the confusion. I think the intent is to consider unit destruction per FOC, but with the same term being used in either situation that's not clear.

Fhionnuisce wrote:
That's a fair point. I really hope in the next edition they use different terms for the list unit and the combined unit on the table to reduce the confusion. I think the intent is to consider unit destruction per FOC, but with the same term being used in either situation that's not clear.

The only times we consider the FOC version of unit is in list building or in association with Independent Character rules. At all other times we are to consider them as all one combined unit, per the instructions in the IC ruleset.

I wouldn't hold your breath on them clearing this up in the next edition. Either it will be as murky as it is now, or the whole idea of IC will go the way of AoS and some Dawn of War characters: i.e. they don't join units, but are very tough otherwise.

I think scoring points is very important for how we read these rules.

While rules like big guns never tire do not care so much for the actual event of the unit's destruction as the scoring is done for the mere absences of said models being on the table. The fact taht you score these heavy units for points for BGNT is not because they are "destroyed" but because none of thier models are on the table at the end of the game and as such you score points.

However, if we look at the malestorm objectives as they follow the same guide lines of the game as they simply state the destruction of a unit, and the definition of what the destruction of the unit is game spanning and not a special case of destruction in any way

As such tactical objective or even ITC malestorm objectives become unscorable unless you kill the entire unit including the ICs that might attached to such units. As such mission objectives are in the context of the turn and don't look t the unit in pure sense.

So, while it is fair to say the you may not soulburst. It does extend into scoring in that you do not score for having destroyed said unit as this has never actually occurred.

As such a unit being destroyued apaprently refer to its unit entry via the FAQ about ICs. So the FAQ informs on us that an IC counts as a unit for all rules purposes except for it's state as being a destroyed unit.

Yeah I think the first two replies on the first page cover this pretty succintly. If you achieve a kill point or yourself give up a kill point, you get to soulburst (dependant on range restrictions, naturally)

mmimzie wrote:While rules like big guns never tire do not care so much for the actual event of the unit's destruction as the scoring is done for the mere absences of said models being on the table. The fact taht you score these heavy units for points for BGNT is not because they are "destroyed" but because none of thier models are on the table at the end of the game and as such you score points.

What? I think you have that backwards.

From ETERNAL WAR: BIG GUNS NEVER TIRE > Primary Objective:

At the end of the game, each Objective Marker is worth 3 Victory Points to the player that controls it. In addition, at the end of the game, each player receives 1 Victory Point for each enemy Heavy Support unit that has been completely destroyed. Units that are Falling Back at the end of the game, and units that are not on the board at the end of the game, count as destroyed for the purposes of this mission.

Destroyed is the qualifier. Those units who do not make it on the board (or are in Ongoing Reserves) by game end are counted as Destroyed and then qualify.

Fracture of Biel-tan FAQ is out:
"Q: If an Independent Character attached to a unit is destroyed, can that trigger Strength from Death?
A: Yes."

It doesn't mention the reverse (unit being killed and leaving the IC alive), but I think we should assume it does trigger.

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